Article examining dominican identity

[deelt]

Any time we can see eye to eye is a step towards change. Glad to be of help.
You are right. There's many things I would like to change let me list the major ones for you so we can slowly start fixing them because the status quo surely sucks (well, maybe not for you, but thats the nonconformist in me speaking) :knockedou :cheeky:

Political corruption
Racially based economic stratafication
Nepotism in politics (so limited to negligible merit based promotions)
Pervasive sexual harassment
Lack of Rule of Law
Male/Female promiscuity
Non enforceable child support
Break down of the family structure
Lack of respect for the environment (using the streets as a garbage can)
Social, racial and sexual discrimination

I can keep going...but this is a good start. bye bye...

Thank You for making my point. You guys are nonconformist. If it wasn't the race issue, it would have been something else you guys would want to change of the DR. You guys will never accept the DR how it is, its a shame because from what I am seeing, you guys are wasting alot of energy and time in something nobody really cares. Bye bye

 

[Oche]

dream on

 

[bienamor]

museum of man

No. Everything european, and Taino, is celebrated; Theres a monument to Christopher columbus, and Taino Museums, just to name a few things. But NOTHING african is nationally recognized.

I believe its on the third floor of the Museum of Man in Santo Domingo Cultural Plaza where there is a large exibit on how the slaves were brought to the island from Africa. Looked like recognition to me.

 

[NALs]

I believe its on the third floor of the Museum of Man in Santo Domingo Cultural Plaza where there is a large exibit on how the slaves were brought to the island from Africa. Looked like recognition to me.

You know what's so interesting about the Museum of Man (and the entire Plaza de La Cultura), is its focus on all aspects of Dominican life (including the African part). But the interesting part is that it was all built under Balaguer's orders.

Of course, these nonconformist don't venture into Museums, they simply read books written by Haitians. Books that, althought they make good reading material, must be read with an eye of suspicion. Haitians, like all humans, will always support their view of things and their belief above others and that could possibly be emitted through books, especially books dealing with the Dominican-Haitian relations. Haitian authors who write books of the Dominican-Haitian relations always make the Haitian look as the innocent one that is getting the brunt of racism with them never provoking it. It's like the Trujillo Massacre. Everybody pin points to the 20 or 30 thousand Haitians he slaughtered. Though, what Trujillo did was wrong and maybe unjustifiable since he could had simply deported them back to Haiti rather than kill them, can anyone say that the Haitian Massacre was worst than what I call the Dominican Holocaust commited by the Invading Haitian Forces years before Trujillo? Compare 20 or 30 thousand Haitians killed in attempt to make a very clear and bold statement to 100s of thousands of Dominicans slaughtered in an attempt to eradicate our Dominican presence for ever?

I get the feeling that these nonconformists accept anything a Dominican says as "false rhetoric" and anything a Haitian says as "the almighty truth". I'm not too sure if this is the case, but so far I am getting that impression.

 

[deelt]

You crack me up!

I need to stop laughing so hard so I can write this email. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Michele is a white woman from the states who lives among the DOMINICAN community for YEARS. She currently is working on Haitain issues as a research fellow through an progressive, respected think tank. I think if any one can be trully objective is someone that is not from either country.

On the "invasion" of Haitains that lead to Trujillos massacre...please you are talking about a majority of Haitians that had been living there for years that suddenly became "illegal" when there was a US mediate delineation of the two countries. Where did I get this from? The leading book on Dominican history written by the Dominican, Frank Moya Pons, a former Columbia University professor.

My suggestion to you is to take your "feelings" all the way to a therapist to assess why you find this topic so repulsive to your white Dominican sensibility.
Needless to say that on this topic I take what you say as a grain of salt given that your family directly benefitted from Trujillos regime.

But do thank you for the laugh. It does lighten up my day. Sigh,

D

You know what's so interesting about the Museum of Man (and the entire Plaza de La Cultura), is its focus on all aspects of Dominican life (including the African part). But the interesting part is that it was all built under Balaguer's orders.

Of course, these nonconformist don't venture into Museums, they simply read books written by Haitians (ie. Why the Cocks Fight, etc). Books that, althought they make good reading material, must be read with an eye of suspicion. Haitians, like all humans, will always support their view of things and their belief above others and that could possibly be emitted through books, especially books dealing with the Dominican-Haitian relations. Haitian authors who write books of the Dominican-Haitian relations always make the Haitian look as the innocent one that is getting the brunt of racism with them never provoking it. It's like the Trujillo Massacre. Everybody pin points to the 20 or 30 thousand Haitians he slaughtered. Though, what Trujillo did was wrong and maybe unjustifiable since he could had simply deported them back to Haiti rather than kill them, can anyone say that the Haitian Massacre was worst than what I call the Dominican Holocaust commited by the Invading Haitian Forces years before Trujillo? Compare 20 or 30 thousand Haitians killed in attempt to make a very clear and bold statement to 100s of thousands of Dominicans slaughtered in an attempt to eradicate our Dominican presence for ever?

I get the feeling that these nonconformists accept anything a Dominican says as "false rhetoric" and anything a Haitian says as "the almighty truth". I'm not too sure if this is the case, but so far I am getting that impression.

 

[Pib]

Everybody pin points to the 20 or 30 thousand Haitians he slaughtered. Though, what Trujillo did was wrong and maybe unjustifiable since he could had simply deported them back to Haiti rather than kill them, can anyone say that the Haitian Massacre was worst than what I call the Dominican Holocaust commited by the Invading Haitian Forces years before Trujillo? Compare 20 or 30 thousand Haitians killed in attempt to make a very clear and bold statement to 100s of thousands of Dominicans slaughtered in an attempt to eradicate our Dominican presence for ever?

Here we must amicably agree to part ways.

I vehemently refuse to hold people accountable for what their ancestors did and I am not going to take responsibility for what my ancestors did either. I wasn't there, I wasn't born, I don't even share a part of the collective responsibility that may burden Dominicans (or Haitians) living at that time. Sure I regret that humans are fundamentally dumb sometimes and fail to respect and recognize their fellow men's rights, but that is as far as I am willing to go and all I can expect from Haitians. Self-flagellation should only be practiced for sexual purposes.

This is what I believe, and then I will probably slink away from here:

There is racism in the Dominican Rep. And in other news, Franco is still dead. I repeat, Franco, is still dead!

Nothing new. Having said that, and expecting that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would also understand that racism is not privy to the Dominican psyche, I have to disagree with this seemingly burning desire to make Dominicans celebrate one ancestry or the other. Dominicans are Dominicans, that's what we should celebrate, let Spaniards, Africans and Arawaks celebrate their own culture, ours is none of this and all of this.

Ancestry is BS. There I said it; it is stinky BS, an illusion to make us feel special. How is any ancestry more celebration-worthy than others. But if that what people want let them celebrate whatever they see fit... and throw a cake with it if it strikes their fancy.

Now on to the kitchen... where we women belong. :devious:

 

[NALs]

Here we must amicably agree to part ways.

I vehemently refuse to hold people accountable for what their ancestors did and I am not going to take responsibility for what my ancestors did either. I wasn't there, I wasn't born, I don't even share a part of the collective responsibility that may burden Dominicans (or Haitians) living at that time. Sure I regret that humans are fundamentally dumb sometimes and fail to respect and recognize their fellow men's rights, but that is as far as I am willing to go and all I can expect from Haitians. Self-flagellation should only be practiced for sexual purposes.

This is what I believe, and then I will probably slink away from here:

There is racism in the Dominican Rep. And in other news, Franco is still dead. I repeat, Franco, is still dead!

Nothing new. Having said that, and expecting that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would also understand that racism is not privy to the Dominican psyche, I have to disagree with this seemingly burning desire to make Dominicans celebrate one ancestry or the other. Dominicans are Dominicans, that's what we should celebrate, let Spaniards, Africans and Arawaks celebrate their own culture, ours is none of this and all of this.

Ancestry is BS. There I said it; it is stinky BS, an illusion to make us feel special. How is any ancestry more celebration-worthy than others. But if that what people want let them celebrate whatever they see fit... and throw a cake with it if it strikes their fancy.

Now on to the kitchen... where we women belong. :devious:

Oh, believe me when I say that I agree with you. My intention with that comparison of massacres that both sides of the island have created is simply to show how Haitians are always seen as the victims of Dominican "cruelty" and never the other way around.

Deelt, stick to the topic. As stated above, my point in making that statement is to show how Haitians are seen as the weak ones always being taken advantage of and Dominicans being the "bad ones". Please, respond to my last paragraph on my last post. Your answer to that is what I really would like to know. PM if you want to, but let me know.

 

[NALs]

My suggestion to you is to take your "feelings" all the way to a therapist to assess why you find this topic so repulsive to your white Dominican sensibility.
Needless to say that on this topic I take what you say as a grain of salt given that your family directly benefitted from Trujillos regime.

But do thank you for the laugh. It does lighten up my day. Sigh,

D

You take what I say as a grain of salt, really?
Geez, you sure do respond alot to my comments that you take as a "grain of salt".

 

[deelt]

Nals, I think you are the one straying off topic I never mentioned Haiti only in response to YOUR posting. Regarding your "feelings and impressions" I think their a pile of crock. This thread is about Dominican identity not about Haitian sentiment. All some of us are saying is why don't we see blackness as beauty in DR. I would like the name of a black Miss Dominican Republic or have black Dominican actors in films. We only see that in the US. Imagine even to see the beauty in all our Dominican people we have to brave the ocean waters.

I think your insinuations are plain ignorant. Your perspective to me on this topics in worth nil. I would love for you to be a black Dominican for a day.

I get the feeling that these nonconformists accept anything a Dominican says as "false rhetoric" and anything a Haitian says as "the almighty truth". I'm not too sure if this is the case, but so far I am getting that impression.

 

[Pib]

I would like the name of a black Miss Dominican Republic or have black Dominican actors in films.

Well we had one in 2003. Not that it says anything about anything.

 

[deelt]

Amelia Vega is black? News to me. I think it would be to her too. It would also be news to the Dominican population. Pero quien sabe de estas cosas...
When I think black Dominican I envision someone like Johnny Ventura. Pero to some nay sayers he's white, indio, mulato or mixed. hahahahahahaha, Yeah, riiiiight. Euphemisms can only take you so far. He could be an attractive man but all people see is his talent. People like him are the exception to the rule in Dominican society.

Well we had one in 2003. Not that it says anything about anything.

 

[Talldrink]

Why dont you believe that Amelia is Black? Dont all Dominicans have some sort of black background somehow?

After reading pages and pages of this thread the only one post that actually makes sense here is from PIB on the previous page: Ancestry is BS - lets live on and celebrate who we are today, who we bacame to be.

I'm happy that because my father is darker than Johnny Ventura and my mother is so white she can be called translucent, I tan like my the Indians that once roamed the island, my hair is curly and people are always confused about my nationality.

Dominicans are not all Black or White, we are just that: different, unique, and happy to still be here and be free.

 

[juancarlos]

It was Ruth Ocumarez

That is the woman who was Ms DR and the one Pib was probably talking about. If Amelia was Ms DR and Ms Universe in 2003, then Ruth's turn was the previous year. Now, deelt, I have the feeling you knew that all along, but sort of played dumb because Pib said 2003 and you certainly were in no mood to help her argument. I am not even Dominican and I knew it was Ms. Ocumarez.

 

[Dominican Tony]

Dominicans are Dominicans, if you are so worried about Africa why don't you just go live among your African brothers over in Africa. It's funny how the two posters attacking Dominican identity in this thread comment on Dominicans neglecting certain aspects of their culture yet why don't you guys enlight us with how many other Latin American countries have done far worst in shunning their African roots within their populations. e.g. Peru, Colombia, and Mexico, to name a few.

What ever happened to the African-Americans that settled in the Samana area? where they denied access like the Jews that Trujillo brought over to Sosua, or the Japanese that settled in the Bonao area, or the fellow BLACK West Indians from the smaller islands that settled in the San Pedro de Macoris area to work in the sugar cane industry when it was a booming industry.

Please, it's too many nationalities and cultures that have come and settled in the D.R. over the past centuries and telling a certain country what to follow is pure non-sense because racial gaps have always existed in the U.S.A. to come with this B.S. in here; show me a country in this world where there's no political corruption or fraud in any part of it's social sector (forgot about the big American corporations and their news breaking scandals????). Thanks PIB for your 2 cents on this because at the end of the day we are all Dominicans and by far one of the proudest people on this planet, may i add unique for being so diverse too! May those few bothered "Dominicans" find peace within themselves, maybe Fabolous, Big Tigga, Black Rob and other half Black/Dominican Urban Music stars should start attacking Dominicans too, lol yeaaaaa ok.

 

[deelt]

actually, i didn't know...

Juan Carlos and Talldrink
I actually didn't know and had to look her up. Yes, she is attractive and beautiful. The irony is Dominicans didn't give her the same publicity as Amelia. I have no issue with PIB. I like her posting as much as the next Dominican since she acknowledges the racism behaviors that exists in DR and the implication. But she seems helpless in trying to change this because its so ingrained in the Dominica psyche. This is why I propose to change the language we use to describe beauty. Is that so hard for people here to accept? What is so wrong with this? Why is it so unpalatable for people to understand and say...hmmm...good point. It's not about Africa, it's not about Spain...it's about being Dominican, in all our shades.

Talldrink, just curious when you talk about your parents who do you talk about first say to you white American friend or black American friends? How dark your dad is or how light your mom is? It's a subtle change that is all. I also hope that when you go to your mom's side of the family you don't hear comments about how dark you are, if your mom wasn't "disinherited" for having married your dad.
D

That is the woman who was Ms DR and the one Pib was probably talking about. If Amelia was Ms DR and Ms Universe in 2003, then Ruth's turn was the previous year. Now, deelt, I have the feeling you knew that all along, but sort of played dumb because Pib said 2003 and you certainly were in no mood to help her argument. I am not even Dominican and I knew it was Ms. Ocumarez.

 

[Talldrink]

Juan Carlos and Talldrink
I have no issue with PIB. I like her posting as much as the next Dominican since she acknowledges the racism behaviors that exists in DR and the implication. But she seems helpless in trying to change this because its so ingrained in the Dominica psyche. This is why I propose to change the language we use to describe beauty.

There is a degree of racism everywhere and in every country. In countries where the mojority are of one color, then they obsess over other things. If not the color then the geography, the mountains or the city, the valleys or the river. If not this is that, but there is always something.

You will see more mixed marriages in DR than in the US and although there is still underlying talk about it, it isnt as big as an issue as it is in other places. And anyone can admit that mixed children have quite unique looks and have exotic features (i.e. wavy or curly hair, light eyes, caramel/almond skin color).

Talldrink, just curious when you talk about your parents who do you talk about first say to you white American friend or black American friends? How dark your dad is or how light your mom is? It's a subtle change that is all. I also hope that when you go to your mom's side of the family you don't hear comments about how dark you are, if your mom wsn't "disinherited" for having married your dad.
D

I usually have to tell people about my father being black first. I happen to be very light skin so they usually don?t believe me when I say that my father is very dark. I also grew up with my mother and not my father, so he is not part of my everyday conversation because of this fact, not because of his color. I am very proud of the black characteristics that make me (i.e. hair, olive skin tone, and curves). Although I am very light, you can tell I have some black background somewhere.

I have a very integrated family. My mother's side is from Ocoa and everybody there is pretty much white. All of my aunts married dark men, so all of children are of various shades: from very dark to very light. I happen to have a very loving family and comments that would degrade us because of something we can?t help have never been acceptable.

I'm not sure if you have mentioned how light or dark you are, but if anyone in your family or elsewhere has made comments regarding your skin color or your family's descent then that is a shame.

I hope you guys are not this hung up on color and race in real life. With so many issues surrounding us today, this seems to be taking too much of a priority in my opinion. Many here seem to want to change the world with a thread, and many of the comments made are unnecessary. Either anyone here likes it or not, Dominicans are all white, black and Indian all at once and that?s that.

 

[thick_neck]

I like what I'm reading...

...but what do I do?

Imagine this: Petiseco y rebej?o as a result of premature birth.

Then, in adulthood, the Dominican tags: viejo, pobre, prieto, flaco y feo.

Deelt, I hear you. Nice.

-Joseito
A "negrito sepillao" to some, but drunk most of the time

 

[Pib]

The irony is Dominicans didn't give her [Ocum?rez] the same publicity as Amelia.

You do happen to remember that Amelia actually won Miss Universe, right? I couldn't care less about beauty contests, really. They are both very beautiful women, and one hopes there is more to them than that, but sulking over treatment of past beauty queens is so 1980s!

 

[deelt]

Hey PIB
You are right about one thing: I could care less about beauty contests.
The fact is that I didn't know. Am I allowed to acknowledge that here? I did hear about Amelia BEFORE she became Miss U, but that could also be the JLG connection. What surprises me about that was my level of unattentiveness. Given the fact that I can give a rat's arse I ended up hearing about it anyway. That's the power of marketing and publicity.

To do a quicky review of what stands out to me in the 80s....well that would be Vanessa Williams and that is worthy of remembrance. But I think she did alright despite the scandal. So no sulking required. Who were you thinking about?

D

You do happen to remember that Amelia actually won Miss Universe, right? I couldn't care less about beauty contests, really. They are both very beautiful women, and one hopes there is more to them than that, but sulking over treatment of past beauty queens is so 1980s!

 

[NALs]

There is a degree of racism everywhere and in every country. In countries where the mojority are of one color, then they obsess over other things. If not the color then the geography, the mountains or the city, the valleys or the river. If not this is that, but there is always something.

That's just reality.

You will see more mixed marriages in DR than in the US and although there is still underlying talk about it, it isnt as big as an issue as it is in other places. And anyone can admit that mixed children have quite unique looks and have exotic features (i.e. wavy or curly hair, light eyes, caramel/almond skin color).

That is so true!

I usually have to tell people about my father being black first. I happen to be very light skin so they usually don?t believe me when I say that my father is very dark. I also grew up with my mother and not my father, so he is not part of my everyday conversation because of this fact, not because of his color. I am very proud of the black characteristics that make me (i.e. hair, olive skin tone, and curves). Although I am very light, you can tell I have some black background somewhere.

You are a Dominican, that's the only thing that really counts! As long that you never deny your Dominican roots, everything else is really BS!

I have a very integrated family. My mother's side is from Ocoa and everybody there is pretty much white. All of my aunts married dark men, so all of children are of various shades: from very dark to very light. I happen to have a very loving family and comments that would degrade us because of something we can?t help have never been acceptable.
I'm not sure if you have mentioned how light or dark you are, but if anyone in your family or elsewhere has made comments regarding your skin color or your family's descent then that is a shame.

That's probably true of Deelt. Maybe that's why she is under this ideal of Africanization or something. Maybe that's it.

I hope you guys are not this hung up on color and race in real life. With so many issues surrounding us today, this seems to be taking too much of a priority in my opinion. Many here seem to want to change the world with a thread, and many of the comments made are unnecessary. Either anyone here likes it or not, Dominicans are all white, black and Indian all at once and that?s that.

To tell you the truth, the only place I speak about color issue is on this board. That just never comes up in my face to face conversation with people in general. The only other times is when tourist ask me for something and they notice my Hispanic ascent in my English, then they say "you are Dominican?" usually followed "I thought you were a tourist!". Other than that, I have no thoughts on race. I don't even care about it, but when it pops up on these boards, I let people know what I think of it.