Brand new suv's for the UN

[pedrochemical]

So this guy is a dickhead!
There are dickheads everywhere - and you 'presume' he was UN? But like you pointed out he could have been one of the missionaries?
Maybe you should have told him he was a dickhead.
I would have done if his behaviour had impacted my personal well being.
In fact I have given UN soldiers 'both barrels' so to speak when they have been dickheads towards me.

Anyway, one guy (whoever he was) being an idiot is not relevant to the debate.

The debate is about cars and living circumstances.

Who should train the police in Haiti?
What should they drive?
Where should they live?


But from your post and from a lot of what I hear, people object to the UN on principal. Maybe I do too, but this does not have a bearing on what they drive or whether they have air-conditioning.


And next time you see this - challenge the person and make a complaint.

 

[engineerfg]

What vehicles should MINUSTAH drive?

Exactly what I was thinking. Should the UN go on ebay and try to find old 4x4's and wait for them to be delivered, and then pay a fortune to service each one after 3 weeks in the field?

If there's graft to be tackled (which clearly there is), don't let these petty things distract the effort to attack it!

 

[engineerfg]

Pedro, my friend, you're missing my point.

Haiti needs money.. a LOT of money, to rebuild the country and get it back on it's feet.

They could have gotten by with SUV's that cost much less, and are probably more appropriate for the intended use.

I can't even begin to imagine how much is being spent on creature comforts of the folks that are there to 'help', while the folks that really need it are still struggling to stay alive every day.

I think you're missing pedro's point. Provide an alternative 4x4 vehicle that's cheaper than 30g's that's available in scale tommorow?

 

[bienamor]

Tinker, Tailor Soldier Sailor...

Military is a job.
Maybe in the olden days when you were conscripted it was not??
In the free world the Army recruit young people and pay them, train them and pension them.

Be all you can be etc....

was not conscripted but anyway check out the pay scales an they don't get paid near enough for what they do. Next time you see a UN wanker with their life on the line let me know. Noticed they kept pulling them out of the green zone. was not safe enougth for them

 

[bienamor]

Which military were you in?
What campaign?
How long ago was that - seems like a poor deal.

US Army 1965-1969 e1-e6 400 and change at discharge.

before you say draft that was only 2 years.

still not what I would call really great even with Hazard pay

E-9 - - - - - - 4,570.80 4,674.30 4,804.80 4,958.40 5,112.90 5,361.60 5,571.30 5,792.40 6,129.90 -
E-8 - - - - - 3,741.60 3,907.20 4,009.50 4,132.50 4,265.40 4,505.40 4,626.90 4,833.90 4,948.50 5,231.40 -
E-7 2,601.00 2,838.90 2,947.50 3,091.80 3,204.00 3,396.90 3,505.50 3,699.00 3,859.50 3,969.00 4,085.70 4,131.30 4,282.80 4,364.40 - -
E-6 2,249.70 2,475.30 2,584.50 2,690.70 2,801.40 3,051.00 3,148.20 3,336.00 3,393.60 3,435.60 3,484.50 - - - -
E-5 2,061.30 2,199.30 2,305.50 2,414.40 2,583.90 2,761.80 2,906.70 -
E-4 1,889.70 1,986.30 2,094.00 2,199.90 2,293.80 - - -
E-3 1,705.80 1,813.20 1,923.00 - - - - -
E-2 1,622.10 - - - - - - -
E-1 1,447.20 - - - - - - -

 

[pedrochemical]

How many times?

These vehicles are for civilians.
These vehicles are for professionals.

What is the military connection with these vehicles?
Do civilian technical professionals usually put their life on the line?

 

[pedrochemical]

I'll tell you what - that seems low considering you might die!
And especially considering you might have family members back home worrying that you might die - terrible stuff.


I checked out the US Army rates now and they are at least living wage.
If you have technical skills they are better, if you have graduated high school even better and there are bonuses for various things.


Most of the UN guys are not young guys starting their careers, they are experienced professionals aged 40 and over.

For example; the police training guys, I was told by one of them, receive what they were on when they retired plus an allowance for housing (an apartment in Port au Prince costs about twice what it costs in Santo Domingo). They get shared use of a vehicle. The lifestyle is not glamorous. They are restricted in their choice of restaurants. The hours are pretty relaxed though.
What they do seem to enjoy is the opportunity to carry just about any weapon you could imagine. They only get to use them on the range, thankfully.

Incidentally, I lived in relatively nice apartments in Petionville, Peguyville and Belleville. I NEVER had aircon available 24 hours per day. You get 4 hours of grid electricity if you are lucky. The rest of the time you have an inverter and a few hours of generator.
That is one thing I love about living in the D.R. recently - I can have an air-conditioned siesta of an afternoon.
Mmmmm - nice!

 

[Collingwood]

was not conscripted but anyway check out the pay scales an they don't get paid near enough for what they do. Next time you see a UN wanker with their life on the line let me know. Noticed they kept pulling them out of the green zone. was not safe enougth for them

Bienamor,

I want to give you the benefit of doubt as I am sure when you think about your last comment you may not be so proud.

Don't you think the UN staff in Haiti demonstrated their willingness to put their life on the line by dying during the earthquake. Maybe yourself, Cobraboy and JD Jones will be content that they died in the rubble, "without air-conditioning".

Pedro, I note that these arm chair quarterbacks are still blowing hot air and not offering any alternative solutions?

Well here is a chance for them to step up.

I will provide some ground for them to pitch a tent in PAP at my depot. I will provide access to a vehicle at the standard rental rate over here for a 2nd hand 4x4 which is $3800usd per month (makes those Prados look like being good value afterall) and so as to not upset their delicate sense of right and wrong I will disconnect the air-conditioning on that 4x4. I will provide the shovels and wheelbarrows and even point them in the direction of a few thousand buildings that still need the dead bodies dug out. At least the corpses have stopped smelling........

Come on over you gurus and show everyone how to do it........

 

[cobraboy]

While I certainly expect UN employees and beneficiaries to defend their organization, that doesn't change the perception in the eyes of a huge number of people that the UN is not much more than a corrupt bureaucratic debate society whose chief accomplishment is the sqyandering of resources.

I don't see their work in Haiti changing that perception.

And FTR:

Who should train the police in Haiti?

Haitians are perfectly capable of training their own. They have been repeatedly trained for many, many years.

What should they drive?

UN workers should drive used utilitarian SUV's and pickups, not new Prados. I GUARANTEE I could save well over $10-15,000 per vehicle.

Where should they live?

UN workers should live in the same housing as soldiers do. They should eat, poop and shower like soldiers do. That would save an immense amount of $$$.

What? The UN couldn't recruit "professional" people then? Then they should recruit those with purer, charitible hearts who just want to help people. You know, like some of the missionary organizations do...

 

[engineerfg]

Please show us how to save 10-15K per car. I'd like to see public MSRP prices for these cars please.

They're not rollin through Haiti in Hummers or Cadilac escalade. At the end of the day it's a crappy Japanese car...

As for your desire to make UN employees live in tents? It's the same argument that every company and employee make against each other over and over again.

The CEO will claim - I need a bonus plan because I can walk next door and get the same. The board will sell it to the shareholders as essential to keep top talent. The engineers will argue they need more base salary because the competition is paying more. the directors sell it to the ceo. and the cycle continues. It's called a free market. IF the UN wants to fill these positions pronto, it is going to have to compete in a free market for talent. And why would a professional engineer who can have a job in company Y vs. working for the UN choose the UN if he has to live in army barracks. He won't, and then nothing will get done in Haiti. You are forgetting that these are not volunteers, altruistic people, or good samaratans. It's just business. And that doesn't make the UN corrupt (other things do).

Would you argue that the Janitor in the UN HQ in New York should clean toilets for free?

IF you don't like the idea of a free market for labour, maybe you should move back to communist Russia! (tongue firmly planted in my cheek!)

 

[pedrochemical]

Firstly,
neither me or Collingwood are direct beneficiaries of the UN in Haiti.

Anybody who works or does business there is indirectly a beneficiary as we would not be able to do business there without the UN keeping the peace. We employ many Haitians, generate jobs, careers and have a hugely positive impact on many peoples' lives.

The Haitians training their own police? - then you would end up with the same corrupt system as was dismantled previously, the same system they are successfully replacing. Look at the Dominican police if you want an example of what happens when you train your police in-house. Yikes!

And where are these technicians who will forego their market value to help run the country? That is just a pipe dream. If you know of any then let me know and I will set them to work instantly.
I ask you personally, are you prepared to come and live in Haiti, take a subsistence wage, live in harsh conditions all for altruistic reasons?
Of course you are not - or you would be. It is simply unrealistic to think that it would ever happen. Again, these people are civilian technicians! Not military!

And do not get me started on missionaries!

Put your money where your mouth is and take up Collingwood on his offer - if you have the guts. I will meet you there and do the same - deal??

It can actually be quite good fun in Haiti.....

 

[Collingwood]

Cobraboy when I deploy my technical teams into the field I need the most reliable vehicles available. Otherwise I have to assign additional resources to be on standby to recover stranded teams due to mechanical failures and I put everyone at risk. Not smart business.

I am a private technical service provider and it is a waste of money and false economy to attempt to save money by using second hand vehicles. If you had any experience in operating in 3rd world environments this is the first lesson you learn.

If the UN were to deploy their staff in Haiti in 2nd hand vehicles their maintenance costs would explode in proportion to the "noise" from the lunatic fringe who would be crying foul about the UN putting their staff at risk by sending them out in unreliable vehicles and wasting money on parts and maintenance. I hope you have a better solution than that? I think the 3 legged donkey is a better transport solution as when that donkey finally gives up your staff can eat the donkey and not starve.....You need to think on multiple levels Cobraboy....come on catch up. Surely you have plans of more substance?

As to the Haitians training themselves. Nice thought and this is no doubt part of the longer term goal. However the Haitian institutions such as the National Police (PNH) have been undergoing reorganization on a massive scale prior to the earthquake. Included in this reorganization was/is a major emphasis on training and developing future leaders who can step up and take the reins in the future. So can Haitians train themselves. Yes they can train themselves in what they know. Does the world want more of the same? I think the answer to that one is No. So is it a good idea to have people from a broken system continue to train others in that broken system? Probably not. Hence the need for professionals to be hired to come to Haiti and assist in rebuilding the institutions and train Haitians so that they will have a chance to participate and control their brighter future. Take the long view Cobraboy.

To move forward and not backwards I would attempt to hire talented people which probably means that they have experience and skills which are in demand in the marketplace. This basic principle dictates that a remuneration package needs to be structured to attract the talent.

I asked for you armchair quarter backs to offer an alternative solution. You've had a crack at that. So credit to you. Your solution of 2nd hand vehicles and tents for the talent would attract someone. Not sure who your brilliant plan would attract but certainly not the experienced and talented staff required.

But at least you had a crack at putting forward a plan.

 

[Chip]

With all due respect to everyone involved in this conversation, I would agree that the UN buying new SUV's is the solution. I have been to Haiti and honestly this would be the best solution given the situation and the logistics of trying to manage a fleet of vehicles.

Could they have gotten a better deal on the SUV's? I believe so.

 

[cobraboy]

Take the long view Cobraboy.

I do.

But based on the actual track record of results of the corrupt, bloated bureaucracy of the UN...who hire folks that fit into a corrupt, bloated bureaucracy in order to perpetuate it...I don't hasve one bit of confidence they can actually "produce" anything. Write great white papers? Yes. Fashion strongly worded memo's? You bet! PRODUCE RESULTS? Nope. ~Zero~ confidence. Based on their successes of the last 60+ years...

The reason "talk is cheap" is because the supply outweighs the demand.

But I realize there are those who worship at the alter of the UN. And those same folks look down their noses at their critics. It's the way of the world.

 

[Chirimoya]

It's interesting to follow this discussion - many aid workers at my level have similar criticisms of the UN and its excesses and when our colleagues make the move to working for the UN they are described as having sold their souls.:cheeky:

Since the earthquake my expat (non-UN) colleagues in Haiti have been living in overcrowded shared accommodation - a house previously shared by 3 of them was at one point housing 20. As a result, they were falling sick due to the sanitation problems and overcrowding, burning out quickly and not working as effectively as if they'd been in better quality accommodation, which is now at a premium in Haiti as the hotels that were not damaged by the quake are full. So that's one point to consider.

Our short term visitors used to stay in mid-range places like the Hotel Prince, but then this changed to middish-range but slightly more expensive places like the Kinam in Petionville because of security concerns in the downtown area.

There was one time when short-term staff were put up in one of the top hotels (Villa Creole), again, due to the exceptional security situation at that time (2004). The longer-term expat staff shared a rented apartment and at a later stage the office was expanded to include a couple of shared rooms for visiting staff to save on costs - so it can be done more economically without living in hovels.

At the same time, it has to be noted that NGOs and the UN will almost always pay less than the official price at these hotels. So the perceived cost is higher than the actual cost and responsible aid workers will not flaunt themselves in these situations for this reason.

The vehicles driven are of the variety being suggested here - second hand pick-ups and 4WDs - and additional ones are leased when there is an escalation in needs during emergencies, but I'm pretty sure the price the UN pays per spanking new Toyota is nowhere near the commercial market price that we would pay at the local car dealership - again - perceived costs vs actual costs.

When I joined the sector in 1991 it was just undergoing a transition towards professionalisation. The old guard were the well-meaning types who would work reactively - the joke being that before we had strategic planning the Overseas director would have an idea and everyone would run around implementing it.

What started happening is that professionals with private sector experience started to be brought in, always for a much lower salary than they would have earned in the corporate world - the result being that you got the professional experience and expertise combined with a reasonable degree of commitment to the work. The idea was that the work would be more effective, more strategic, and more accountable to donors while not losing the humanitarian motivation.

But yes, we would still get letters from people saying - "I can't believe you pay your employees ?20,000 a year - they should be doing it for nothing".

Or press reports blasting us for using call centres to take telephone donations and - gasp - paying them a fee! They would rather see 15 volunteers sitting in the office and losing 95% of the phone calls from thousands of members of the public wanting to donate money at a time of a massive emergency appeal instead of paying a call centre (which again, gave us a favourable deal as part of its charitable policies) a small percentage of the total money donated!

And at the same time they expect professional quality administration of donor money...

So in summary, although I do share a certain level of disapproval for the excesses of the UN, I also see the contradictions in some of these expectations. They should stay in basic accommodation and eat in local caf?s, yes, but they will get dysentery and become unproductive burden. They should drive wonky old cars but this means they would spend large periods of time being held up because they're being repaired. They should use well-meaning but unqualified volunteers for jobs that require professional expertise and experience....

Things can be done more modestly, but at the scale the UN operates it might end up making things even more unwieldy and inefficient.

 

[Chirimoya]

I agree with you that second hand vehicles are not a good choice.

None of us know the price that was paid for the Land Cruisers

I can tell you this: I do know that a new Land Cruiser here is 100K. A brand new HILUX 4 x 4 pickup is less than half of that. Using the same logic as before where the final cost of a Land Cruiser was probably much less, the cost of a HILUX would still have been half.

Do you want me to believe that your crack 'teams' couldn't get by with a brand new Hilux at half the cost of your Land Cruisers?

Somehow I don't think our UN folks would want to lower themselves to driving such an 'inferior' new vehicle, and living in a trailer.

I'm going to e-mail someone I know who works at the company and ask him how much a Land Cruiser sent to Haiti (before and after shipping) would have cost.

 

[cobraboy]

There are many, many ways to avoid dysentary that do not include expensive hotels.

Pray tell: how does the military in MUCH more crowded conditions avoid it...as well as performing to peak efficiency with high morale?

And since when does "used" mean "high maintenance?" There are PLENTY of 2-4 y.o. vehicles available...even in the DR...that could give YEARS or maintenance-free service. AND plenty of mechanics available to fix them, even in Haiti. At a FRACTION of the cost.

A stripped-down 2.5l diesel D-Max's for a TON less than fancy SUV's...even less expensive than a HiLux. AND tougher.

 

[engineerfg]

There are many, many ways to avoid dysentary that do not include expensive hotels.

'Expensive hotels'? In Haiti? Have you been to Haiti? The 'nicest' hotel I've stayed at is the hotel mont joli in cap haitian in the north. It was 'expensive' because it cost $65/night and had a clean shower. Stop the bafflegab folks, this is Haiti we're talking about...

Pray tell: how does the military in MUCH more crowded conditions avoid it...as well as performing to peak efficiency with high morale?

Why do you have a hard time understanding this?

Military - they are volunteers. They are FORCED to go. They have NO CHOICE to go to Haiti. If your orders come in, you bight the bullet.

UN Managers - they are employees. They are not FORCED to go. They have a CHOICE to not go to Haiti. It's just a job offer. It's just business.

Look the military in Iraq digs ranger graves and sleeps in camel pooop and lives on rip fuel and powerbars and prisoner food. Is that what the policemen who are being paid to train the police in haiti (as a job) have to put up with? If so, then none would do the job.

And since when does "used" mean "high maintenance?" There are PLENTY of 2-4 y.o. vehicles available...even in the DR...that could give YEARS or maintenance-free service. AND plenty of mechanics available to fix them, even in Haiti. At a FRACTION of the cost.

'used' has meant 'high maintenance' since the dawn of time. do the math friend -- there is NO WAY you can buy 100 used cars that are from the same manufacturer and the same year.

So Option 1 - buy new, wait 2 years to change something like say an air filter.

Option 2 - buy used, wait 3 months to change the same air filter, except you now have 10 different car manufacturers, different year and make cars, different filter requirements, you have to keep all those provisions on site.


Back to your example of the army, why does the ARMY spend $8/day and give everyone the same meal? When there are vegetarians in the military who could eat for just $4/day?

Well if you add the complexity of options and choices, you increase the tracking and maintenance costs.

This may not seem large if it's you playing around in your garage with 1 car, but scale that out to hundreds of cars, and you're SCREWED. geddit?

A stripped-down 2.5l diesel D-Max's for a TON less than fancy SUV's...even less expensive than a HiLux. AND tougher.

Yup 1 of those would work. Now how do you find a couple hundred of those by tommorow? Any suggestions?

 

[Chip]

When I was in Haiti on a mission trip I stayed with many foreigners and US military in a compound. It was basically a tent city and we ate food prepared by local Haitians there in the compound. No one I talked with got dysentary. We even got pizza from a local restaurant.

 

[cobraboy]

Yup 1 of those would work. Now how do you find a couple hundred of those by tommorow? Any suggestions?

The SAME way you get a couple of expensive luxury Prados...