Does this theory work in the DR??

[bob saunders]

I had a long dicussion with my Dominican wife about this topic, about colour bar...etc. She pointed out to me that Leonel was more black than white, that numerous influencial people in the DR are not white, but mulatto....etc. To say that there is not a certain class of white Dominicans that want to keep the blacks down would be a lie, but as the majority of the DR is filled with brown skinned people, there is plenty of opportunity. SELF IMPOSED BARRIERS ARE HARDER TO KNOCK DOWN THAN THOSE PUT UP MY OTHERS.

 

[CyaBye3015]

That's because there isn't one, so they can't climb it ... but a ladder, people everywhere aspire for the top rung.

shadInToronto, It would appear that you also missed my point. Aspiring for the top rung may make one wealthy and able to hang with the social elites but it has nothing to do with the OP, or scuess. That is unless you consider people like Marco and many others we all know in the DR failures.

 

[johne]

Yes but there is a reason--

AZB, you missed my point.

If you don't LIVE in the DR there is absolutey no way one can use reason, stats, smarts, world knowledge, personal experiences, to know friggen anything about the subject matter at hand. You are a dummy my friend.

In fact, after reading and listening to the world according to some of the experts here,that LIVE in the DR, I'm not quite sure what I do know any more.

As one of the posters here that always end by writing -" here to learn and teach" (close) I too am here to sit back and learn as much as I can from our esteem educators.

JOHN

 

[CyaBye3015]

You are a dummy my friend.

JOHN

I'm not your friend! But what gives you the right to asses me as a dummy. The part of what I was refering to was NAL's equation of sucess in the USA.

I'm 52 years old and have lived here all my life, so I think that qualfies me to have an opnion on the definition of scuss in the USA.

Now who looks like the dummy?

 

[A.Hidalgo]

The OP mentioned success. Some here are equating it with being rich. You can be successful have a house, car etc. and not be rich but live comfortably, something like middle to upper class, but then again success to some can mean earning one million dollars to others one quarter of that and be happy.

 

[bob saunders]

If you don't LIVE in the DR there is absolutey no way one can use reason, stats, smarts, world knowledge, personal experiences, to know friggen anything about the subject matter at hand. You are a dummy my friend.

JOHN

There are plenty here that know more than me about the DR, but I have lived fulltime with 3 Dominicans of 3 different generations for the past eight years. There is no call for you to get on anyones case based on the opinions expressed here. perhaps you feel you personally don't know your axx from a hole in the ground, but not presume that others fit the same descrition. I know plenty about the subject matter at hand because I Listen, ask questions, observe...etc. When my wife, who is a dark skinned although not black Dominican tells me that she doesn't believe that the shade of your skin is a barrier to success in the DR, I tend to believe her.

 

[Criss Colon]

"Sorry" Bob! Your Wife can't see the forest for the trees!

Go into ANY bank. See any BLACK tellers??? NO! Look at the social magazines that come with the daily newspapers. See any Blacks?, NO! I once saw a Black man there. I was really surprized! Then I saw that he was the Haitian Ambasador! "Whew!" I thought my theory was wrong for a minute!!

My 20 years of "Dominican Experiance" (living,working,raising a family) have taught me that the MOST important asset in the DR is Light Skin!! PERIOD! Want to tell me about the "shoe-shine-boy" from San Pedro who owns a business ,a "jepetta" and a "Big House",go ahead,the EXCEPTIOS just prove the RULE!
I speak in generalities!! If I say;"You have to be white,AND from a "Good" connected family to get ahead in the DR!" Do I mean 100% of the time? "NO!",Just 99% of the time!
Those of us lucky enough fo fight in Vietnam had one thing to say to those who didn't,yet were "so sure" about what went on there, "If you ain't been to "The Nam",Shut The Phuck Up!"
I think you know what I have to say to those who don't live in the DR,yet are "so sure" they know what goes on here!!!!!
Or anyone who disagrees with me,for THAT matter!!!:cheeky::cheeky:

"Be HERE,or BE QUEER"!!!!
Cris Colon, A LEGEND IN MY OWN MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS< for ONCE in his life "NALS" is "Almost" right!!
PPS, It's GOOD to see some people actually getting interested enough in a thread to begin insulting eachother!!
"My WORK Here Is ALMOST Done!"

 

[johne]

This totally misunderstood post

If you don't LIVE in the DR there is absolutey no way one can use reason, stats, smarts, world knowledge, personal experiences, to know friggen anything about the subject matter at hand. You are a dummy my friend.

In fact, after reading and listening to the world according to some of the experts here,that LIVE in the DR, I'm not quite sure what I do know any more.

As one of the posters here that always end by writing -" here to learn and teach" (close) I too am here to sit back and learn as much as I can from our esteem educators.

JOHN

It's very obvious from the reaction of both posts #44 and #46 that I am a poor writer of tongue in cheeck. My post above was an attempt at sarcasim
and comtempt for those that believe-If you don't live in the DR you know nothing.

Sorry for those that did not understand my posting--my fault--and I hope this clears my position on the subject. As far as CC's comment about people getting smart and challenging etc.-please don't include me in that group as I don't agree with you about 99% of the time.

john

 

[Chirimoya]

johne, I think some people lack a sarcasm detector. I read you loud and clear first time round.

 

[CyaBye3015]

It's very obvious from the reaction of both posts #44 and #46 that I am a poor writer of tongue in cheeck. My post above was an attempt at sarcasim
and comtempt for those that believe-If you don't live in the DR you know nothing.

Sorry for those that did not understand my posting--my fault--and I hope this clears my position on the subject. As far as CC's comment about people getting smart and challenging etc.-please don't include me in that group as I don't agree with you about 99% of the time.

john

Sorry John,

It went right over my head the first time around.

Joe

 

[Rocky]

Sorry John,

It went right over my head the first time around.

Joe

Naw...
It just bounced off your beautiful shiny dome.

 

[miguel]

Correctomundo.......

Go into ANY bank. See any BLACK tellers??? NO! Look at the social magazines that come with the daily newspapers. See any Blacks?, NO! I once saw a Black man there. I was really surprized! Then I saw that he was the Haitian Ambasador! "Whew!" I thought my theory was wrong for a minute!!

My 20 years of "Dominican Experiance" (living,working,raising a family) have taught me that the MOST important asset in the DR is Light Skin!! PERIOD! Want to tell me about the "shoe-shine-boy" from San Pedro who owns a business ,a "jepetta" and a "Big House",go ahead,the EXCEPTIOS just prove the RULE!
I speak in generalities!! If I say;"You have to be white,AND from a "Good" connected family to get ahead in the DR!" Do I mean 100% of the time? "NO!",Just 99% of the time!
Those of us lucky enough fo fight in Vietnam had one thing to say to those who didn't,yet were "so sure" about what went on there, "If you ain't been to "The Nam",Shut The Phuck Up!"
I think you know what I have to say to those who don't live in the DR,yet are "so sure" they know what goes on here!!!!!
Or anyone who disagrees with me,for THAT matter!!!:cheeky::cheeky:

"Be HERE,or BE QUEER"!!!!
Cris Colon, A LEGEND IN MY OWN MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS< for ONCE in his life "NALS" is "Almost" right!!
PPS, It's GOOD to see some people actually getting interested enough in a thread to begin insulting eachother!!
"My WORK Here Is ALMOST Done!"

The have been saying the same exact thing for YEEEEEEARS, here.

For the love of God, even a blind person can see that what you are saying has been a "Dominican custom" way BEFORE the older person on DR1 was born!!.

One doesn't have to live in the DR, marry a Dominican or be borne in the DR to see which race "controls" the DR.

Do I like it, of course not, but the "facts" are the "facts" and the worse thing is that those "facts" WILL NOT CHANGE ANY TIME SOON!!.

Remember guys, SOME of you have been "dealing" with the DR for a few years but there are SOME people on this site who have been "dealing" with the country for MANY years. SOME "dealing" from afar.

I personally don't see why SOME people can't see the obvious. All one needs to do is look around. It's ALLLL there for ALLLL to see.

Shameful but a fact!.

 

[jackieboo]

What is 'black'?

What exactly is considered 'black' here in the DR? When CC says to go in to a bank and see if there are any 'blacks' working what does that mean? When is it that the pigment in your skin is dark enough to signify you as ?black??

The subject is relative because if these ?white/mulato? Dominicans were transported to middle America you'd find that most people would consider them 'black'. If you transported them to the Sudan they may be considered 'white'.

The real issue here is racism and its ugly undertones. It seems that every class and generation of people wants to feel special in some way or another and when intellect doesn?t differentiate you from your fellow man you have to look at esthetics.

 

[Criss Colon]

You Need A "Dominican" Color Detector!!!

Dominicans "KNOW" where they sit on the "Color Scale" in this country! They ALL think that they "Personally" are a "Lighter" shade than the actually are,however! Dominicans know what color qualifies for what job! "Pena Gomez most likely descrbed himself as an "Indiocito"! :cheeky::cheeky:
ONLY Corporan de los Santos (Sabado de Corporan) says that he is the "Blackest" man in the DR!
It kinf of goes like this: If you are "WHITE",you are "Out Of Sight"! If you are "Brown",you can "Hang Around! But if you are "Black","GET BACK"!!!
I "SEE" the Dominican Color Scale at work all the time!
Example:.My wife who is "Nut Btown" had a cell phone that was brand new,yet didn't work. She went 4 time to the "Orange Office" Each time told to "Come Back"later to see if it was "Ready" yet! The 5th. time,I went! Got a new phone right away!!! I get "Served" right away all the time! I don't get "The LOOK" that my wife,and especially her son,who IS BLACK gets all the time. If you live here,and don't see whats going on,then you are indeed, "COLOR BLIND"! BLIND to the social injustices that are cosidered "NORMAL" here!
Cris Colon CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Miguel has it 100% RIGHT!!!!
Be "NICE",and "POLITICALLY CORRECT", by USA "STANDARDS" ,but it "just ain't So!"

 

[Chirimoya]

Race aside, the fact that education - both at home and in the school - for most Dominicans is all but non-existent, and the fact that the main role models for success are not those who studied and worked hard to achieve it - are huge impediments to ordinary young people studying and working their way out of poverty.

 

[AZB]

Dominicans are very racist. Most of my friends are white to indio types. The indio types have darker skin but straight hair and fine facial features. I hardly ever see them hanging out with black dominicans. I, once, invited a Dominican friend of mine who is black. When we got to the party, almost all girls whispered in my ear, "but but, your friend is black....". As if, why did I bring him here? Then my friend and his date (both blacks) were refused entrance at francifol cafe. I quickly called the owner and straighten out everything. This was a time when i was new in santiago and didn't know the rules. I was surprised to see that my black dominican friends did know the rules and were very uncomfortable at the club. They knew they didn't belong there and I learned it the hard way, that night. I had to come to terms that this is the way things are in DR. The blacks are kept out of most white establishments, unless he is a politician or a classy rich businessman or a famous lawyer or a doctor. Everyone know where they belong in the socio-economical ladder of this country.
So if you are black, then chances are, 99% of doors to opportunity are closed to you.
AZB

 

[bob saunders]

The OP said : Quote : My friend said that in the DR things are different, opportunities are very very limited, especially if you are poor. He also said that because of the 'system' it is almost impossible for poor people to overcome thier position in life. end Quote.

In this statement nowhere is there anything about whether his friend is black, white, or green, only poor. Chirimoya is correct, lack of education and good role models play as much a part as race. I guess all the people I know in Jarabacoa are not really black, but actually dark indians with fine features. NOT. My wife's cousin who is black, black, black just received her Medical Doctor license. I guess she is doomed to fail because all the light skinned people will not let her into the club.

 

[suarezn]

I disagree with some of the above statements. Dominicans are not so much racists as classists. In other words money rules. It doesn't really matter what color you are as long as you have money. Nobody is going to object to the black guy marrying the white girl if he has money. Now I do agree that all things being equal having lighter skin is an advantage when doing things such as applying for a job (again all things being equal). In addition there are definitely certain segments of society (who happen to be mostly "white" - Probably the ones AZB hangs out with) who tend to see themselves as superior to darker people.

 

[NALs]

I disagree with some of the above statements. Dominicans are not so much racists as classists. In other words money rules. It doesn't really matter what color you are as long as you have money. Nobody is going to object to the black guy marrying the white girl if he has money. Now I do agree that all things being equal having lighter skin is an advantage when doing things such as applying for a job (again all things being equal). In addition there are definitely certain segments of society (who happen to be mostly "white" - Probably the ones AZB hangs out with) who tend to see themselves as superior to darker people.

In most Dominican social circles, what occurs is not racism per se, but rather colorism.

For one thing, the concept of "race" doesn't really exist among Dominicans, but the concept of color certainly does. The closest thing to the concept of "race" in the DR is the notion of people either being Dominican, foreign, or Haitian. All other classifications are strictly a combination of color and physical features such as hair texture, shape of eyes, shape of lips, shape of nose, etc; with each possible mixture being classified as a separate "type".

To further complicate matters for foreigners attempting to understand this issue in Dominican society, each "type" is not associated with others of their own "type" in the same sense that each race in the U.S. or even in Europe have a unity among their own groups.

There is only a "Dominicaness" that permeates through all Dominican people, with subtle changes in refinement (ie. more european inclined) the further up one goes in the socio-economic ladder.

There is no pride in being a part of a particular race, except at the very top where the pride of being of blue blood is so strong that it dictates most, if not every aspect of life. In fact, the upper crust of the upper crust has an annoying habit of interrogating children during birthday parties about their parents profession, ancestry, etc.

In fact, its almost a passage ritual among the upper class to, at some point in one's childhood, attend a children birthday party and be taken aside by one of the adults and asked questions of what you parents do for a living, who your grandparents were and what was their profession, how are things going for your parents, what school you attend, etc.

All of this will, eventually, dictate the prospect of developing valuable contacts for future business en devours. It starts a very young age.

Also, lets not forget that if a person speaks non-elite Dominican Spanish, that is the street Dominican Spanish, doesn't matter what skin color you are, you will be ignored and/or rejected from establishments catering to the upper class.

A person is not automatically ignored if they walk into an establishment catering to upper class for the simple reason of having dark skin (albeit it does happens at times), however once that person opens his/her mouth and the accent, syntax, etc of his/her Spanish resembles anything lower class; expect classism to appear in an instant and all that that implies.

Colorism also occurs in many eastern cultures where fair people are considered to be more superior, affluent, and powerful then those of a darker skin tone. In some Latin American countries such as Brazil, "race" is often more a matter of skin tone and social status than actual ancestry.

Colorism can be identified as a direct consequence of the social stratification of colonial societies, especially the ones affected by slavery. The phenomenon can be identified in the Americas from United States to Caribbean countries to South America.

In the French West Indies, new born children can be deemed as "sauv?" (saved) when their skin tone is light enough to represent a chance at better social status.

The same patterns that discriminate dark skin are also applied to other physical features that are directly linked to African heritage: hair, face features, etc.

(Source)

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

Who cares what it's called? It's still discrimination based on arbitrary criteria.