DR Spanish and globalisation

[Chirimoya]

That?s all fine and dandy but tell me one thing?is Sprit (the drink) not Sprit in any language? Why then do I have to say ?Esprit? if I want to be understood?

Spanish speakers can't pronounce a consonant cluster at the beginning of the word, especially when the first letter is an S. Note that Spanish translations of such words always include the letter E:

Spain - Espa?a
Stephen - Esteban
Spirit - Espiritu
Scott - Escott
Scotland - Escocia

That's why Sprite is pronounced Esprite.

 

[Chirimoya]

Chirimoya,
I think it's the mixing of a lot of Eng. and Spa.
Many English words are made into Spanish, rather than translating them.
Like roofo, parqueo, carpeta, and the new one I learned last night at work:
Nursa (Nurse).

Hey, that's my first language!

We had a great thread about that a while ago but I can't find it right now.

 

[Toronto2inDR]

Well I?m from Argentina and my first language is Spanish and I have no problem saying Sprit but yours is a very good explanation I must say.

 

[bcmike]

true

Spanish speakers can't pronounce a consonant cluster at the beginning of the word, especially when the first letter is an S. Note that Spanish translations of such words always include the letter E:

Spain - Espa?a
Stephen - Esteban
Spirit - Espiritu
Scott - Escott
Scotland - Escocia

That's why Sprite is pronounced Esprite.

I noticed that the same thing in Mexico...and "th" was nearly impossible for many to say easily.Perhaps similar to my trying to roll my Rrrrrrrrs.

 

[Tordok]

Chiri, Lesley D, PIB, et al:
I'll stay away from the engrossing grammar debates, as I humbly defer to your expertise. For me, this whole subject of comparative linguistics and usage, is good learning, and you are our masterful teachers. Thanks, and please keep it going!

As it is my custom, please allow me to take the deconstructionist approach. I think that the comments about cosmic telepathy by MrMike were, as the Brits would have it: "spot on". That meta-interpretation pretty much encapsulates the profound meaning of this phenomenon of cultural and linguistic cross-pollination.

It is really yet another step in the evolution of the species.
Globalization is a natural tendency. As in other aspects of evolution, a natural selection process will determine the suitability of a given language or combination of languages over others. Same thing is happening to monetary currencies, legal systems, diets, technical and technological standards, etc.. Perphaps none of these things have such an intimate meaning to individuals as language does. But just as well, language is not exempt from the market forces of global geopolitics and much less from the forces of natural selection. Each generation will add and delete items from their lexicon and their semiotic transactions. Things that used to be prestigious become pass?, and viceversa. Consider burning witches, sporting tattoos, owning slaves, steamboats. Objects, events, people are transformed by context in such ways that some things become the absolute opposite of its original meaning. In the ever-present clash of individual vs. collective, old vs. new, hetereogenity vs. homogeneity, acceptable vs. unacceptable; what we ultimately get is always an "impure form" from the previously defined ideal.

Hey, it is a ying-yang world.

- Tordok
:cross-eye :devious:

 

[Jane J.]

Wow, what I've been missing!

Of the two choices offered, I would want to say "Digales no a las drogas," por concordancia, as per the RAE reply. BUT, and nobody has thought of this yet, in the end I might say "Digale no a la droga." Go singular and sidestep that problem altogether!

"Diga" no..... "a cualquier cosa que no sea una persona" just to avoid the ambiguity.

Yes, I might also do this - although the phrase definitely loses its accusatory punch as a result. A bit of a flaw in the Spanish language, wouldn't you say?

As far as pronunciations go, the majority must be taken in their social contexts. Chiri, you choose a great example: My mother's pronunciation of Don Quicksot (British English) used to drive me crazy, but Don Kiyotee (American English) is not much better and Don Quixote (did I pronounce that correctly ?) really does sound affected. Very Alex Trebek of Jeopardy!.

We all have to make our choices...let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Chirimoya]

Don Coyote? Wasn't he a country and western singer?

 

[Marianopolita]

In today's BBCMundo.com there is a special feature on "el idioma espa?ol" and most of issues were generated from the III Congreso Internacional de la Lengua en Argentina (the Third International Language Congress in Argentina). The links are numerous therefore, I invite to view them if you wish http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/specials/2004/congreso_lengua/default.stm# .

There are two that I find quite interesting: Spanglish: "se deliver?n grocer?as" and ABC Iberoamericano.

The first article Spanglish: "se deliver?n grocer?as" is about the dominance of Spanglish in the USA. As per the article it was once believed that this new "language was invented by Puertoricans and Dominicans" but on the contrary it dates much further back to the presence of the first Hispanic populations in California and Florida.

Se cree que este nuevo "idioma" lo inventaron los puertorrique?os y dominicanos que emigraron hace mucho tiempo a la ciudad de Nueva York.

Sin embargo, su real existencia se debe a la impresionante simbiosis cultural anglo-latina que se remonta a la presencia de la cultura hispana en estados como California y Florida.

The article also states that Spanish is the language of a subculture that is flourishing in large cities in the USA.

En todo caso existe. Es el lenguaje de una subcultura que florece en las grandes urbes de Estados Unidos. Cerca de 40 millones de hispanos usan en mayor o menor grado este "idioma".

It crosses all social classes. It is spoken by new illegal immigrants, middle class workers, and executives.

No discrimina clases sociales; lo habla desde un inmigrante indocumentado reci?n llegado, hasta un trabajador de clase media o un ejecutivo de clase alta.

You will hear frases like these for example:

"Oye papi, me lleg? mi grincar ayer y estoy super happy", le escuch? decir a una se?ora emocionada.

Some phrases are even harder to understand in Spanglish (I am glad they included the translation):

"Se me laque? la troca", spanglish de la versi?n original "The truck is locked out", o del espa?ol, "la camioneta se qued? cerrada con las llaves adentro".

As per the article Spanglish is very dominant in the publicity market i.e the television and radio:

"Soy un contador con experiencia: pague sus taxes a tiempo, es mandatorio", dice otro anuncio.

Spanglish has two levels:

1) The mixture of both languages without impurity

El spanglish tiene dos niveles a mi modo de ver. El primero consiste simplemente en mezclar los dos idiomas sin corromperlos. Por ejemplo, "Mary se gan? la lottery".

2) Changing English completly to have a Spanish form

El otro nivel es una total descomposici?n del ingl?s para adaptarlo al espa?ol. "Voy a vacunear la carpeta", o sea, del ingl?s "To vacuum the carpet" que traducido es "aspirar la alfombra".

In my opinion this is the ultimate insult to Spanish (thanks to Spanglish):

This is a translation in Spanglish of the first chapter of Don Quijote de la Mancha:

"In un placete de La Mancha of which nombre no quiero remembrearme, viv?a, not so long ago, uno de esos gentlemen who always tienen una lanza in the rack, una buckler antigua, a skinny caballo y un grayhound para el chase".

===============

ABC Iberoamericano is a dictionary that the BBC Mundo created of terms that they have come across that varied from country to country. Since this newspapers are read by speakers from various countries journalists, writers etc. find it difficult to standardize the terms. They created their own diccionario sui generis which they will continue to build to facilitate translations of terms etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/misc/newsid_4002000/4002957.stm

Here are some examples from the BBCMundo dictionary:

Hallar: En Paraguay hallar(se) se usa como sin?nimo de ponerse contento, estar a gusto, divertirse. Por ejemplo: no me hallo en Londres -no estoy contento en Londres. Me voy a hallar si pierde Bush -Me voy a alegrar si pierde Bush. O masiado se halla Jos? cuando est? con su novia -Jos? se pone muy contento cuando est? con su novia.

Indio: en Chile estar con el indio es tener resaca. En Colombia se dice guayabo y en Venezuela rat?n. Cruda en M?xico.

(I find this term for "hangover" interesting because it seems to vary very much from country to country. The term most familiar to me is "tener guayabo" but it is very region specific however, I am familiar with all the others above. If you know of any others I would love to hear them.)

Jinetera: seguimos en Cuba: prostituta.

(This term originated in the early nineties when the Soviet Union dismantled. This word is used predominantly in most contemporary Cuban novels)

Tinto: si est? en Colombia y pide un "tinto" le van a traer un caf? con agua. Olv?dese del vino.

Temperar: irse en vacaciones, seg?n nicarag?enses, venezolanos, dominicanos y colombianos.
(This term is new to me).

You could check out the link for more terms.

Source: BBC Mundo, Jueves, 3 de febrero de 2005

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/news/

==========

-Lesley D-

 

[Pib]

"In un placete de La Mancha of which nombre no quiero remembrearme, viv?a, not so long ago, uno de esos gentlemen who always tienen una lanza in the rack, una buckler antigua, a skinny caballo y un grayhound para el chase".

Arrgghhhhhhh!

My head just exploded. Feel free to scrape my brain off the walls.

Hallar: En Paraguay hallar(se) se usa como sin?nimo de ponerse contento, estar a gusto, divertirse. Por ejemplo: no me hallo en Londres -no estoy contento en Londres. Me voy a hallar si pierde Bush -Me voy a alegrar si pierde Bush. O masiado se halla Jos? cuando est? con su novia -Jos? se pone muy contento cuando est? con su novia.

We use encontrar here. Like "No me encuentro en la nueva escuela".

Indio: en Chile estar con el indio es tener resaca. En Colombia se dice guayabo y en Venezuela rat?n. Cruda en M?xico. '

I've heard cruda, but I can't remember where.

 

[Marianopolita]

Pib,

I hear you (with respect to the Don Quijote Spanglish text) and that was my sentiment as well. As a "language person" I do not promote the usage of either form of Spanglish as referenced in my post above from the article although I use it sparingly mostly to emphasize a point at times. I don't know how to speak Spanglish. It definitely originated in the US which is considered the 5th largest Spanish speaking country in the world which is quite an amazing statistic for a country whose official language is not Spanish. I think overtime the language authorities like the Real Academia and it's smaller entities in Argentina and other parts of South America really have to pay close attention to how this "so-called language" (I think it's a pidgin) impacts the Spanish language as a whole. Where will it fit in according to how Spanish is categorized so long as the grammar rules are not broken? What I mean by this is Spanish is categorized by grammarians into three levels:

1) Nivel culto- definitely not in this category.

2) Nivel familar o coloquial-possibly here.

Def: Cualquier hablante, con independencia del nivel cultural que posea, tiene como modo de expresi?n habitual un uso relajdao cuando habla con sus familiares y amigos.(Source: Gram?tica Pr?ctica, Antonio Benito Mozas)

3) Nivel vulgar- possibly here too but this category really refers to grammar errors and Spanglish is not necessarily spoken with incorrect grammar but I would not be surprised. As well, Spanglish is used as a substitute when one does not know how to say a word in Spanish.

Def: Los hablantes que no han recibido una educaci?n suficiente utilizan un c?digo restringido y deficiente, y, como est?n poco familiarizados con el lenguaje escrito, cometen abundantes incorrecciones que denominamos vulgarismos.(Source: Gram?tica Pr?ctica, Antonio Benito Mozas)

=============

"Cruda" is from Mexico.

I think the most generic term for "hangover" is "resaca" . Other than the words already mentioned (guayabo, rat?n, indio) I wonder if there are any more common ones.

=============

Going back to the original theme of DR Spanish and Globalization the article from el Diario Libre was a result of the International Language Congress in Argentina and I love the fact the BBC Mundo now has put together a Spanish Language display with various articles and links to address the changes in Spanish as it continues to come in contact with English in various parts of the Spanish speaking world. Some regions are more impacted than others but the DR is definitely one that will continue to be influenced due to its economic relationship to the US and communities abroad. The Spanglish phenomenon in my opinion is independent of globalization since it has been spoken ever since the two languages began to co-exist but the impact is greater now because of tremendous growth of the Spanish population over the past ten years in major US cities.


I see Spanglish definitely as a problem. Using the examples from my post #48:

1) grocer?as (groceries) sounds like "grosero"
2) carpeta (carpet)= "carpeta" is actually a word ("archivo") as a synonym for "alfombra" only in Spanish spoken in the US.
3) troca (truck) = what's wrong with "cami?n"?
4) deliverar (to deliver) = this is just ridiculous. What is wrong with "servicio a domicilio"?


Chao,

-Lesley D-

 

[Marianopolita]

CNN en espa?ol segment (Feb 5, 2005)

This is just a coincidence but I just watched a segment on Cnn en espa?ol (Mirador Mundial) and the reporter was discussing the growing concern about the usage of Spanglish in Orlando, Florida. As I mentioned in my two previous posts the usage of Spanglish in the USA is a growing concern. Immigrants from various Spanish speaking countries (including the DR) are finding it difficult to learn proper English for job purposes and at the same time although ironic their Spanish is getting worse because of their usage of Spanglish. This is what the reporter said:

-?El reto es hablar bien el ingl?s y bien el espa?ol?.

-El ?espanglish? est? contagiando a los hispanos que llegan al pa?s con un buen espa?ol.


Needless to say I was very glad to hear that Spanglish is viewed as a problem because I truly feel it is one.


-Lesley D-

 

[MaineGirl]

I have been back and forth on the best way to epxress my feelings about Spanglish. I finally came up with this analogy. All language is a form of currency, and Spanglish is no exception. It has a certain value to those who use it. You may not like it or see it as a problem but the fact is, it really does have value to those who use it. Now, will its use "devalue" the two languages it derives from? Maybe on the surface it appears to cheapen two otherwise fine and noble languages....but in reality it is the currency of the newly-arrived as well as the well-established. It's the new money of people who command both tongues. It will not disappear.

 

[Marianopolita]

MaineGirl,

Your analogy makes sense and I see where you are coming from however, there is a problem in that to what extent do the academic authorities (i.e. La Real Academia) allow each language to deteriorate? I am sure you read the examples in my post #48 from BBC Mundo and the Int'l Language Congress in Argentina. The links I provided also address the academic problems associated with Spanglish. Since it's not an official language but "the currency of newly-arrived" as well as the "well-established" as you stated where does it fit in from an academic stand point? You also stated "it will not disappear" so how do we turn this "neoteric" way of speaking into a means of communication that is beneficial to both languages as well as to those who choose to speak it? I would like to hear your thoughts on those two questions.

I think you left out a huge aspect in your analogy, which is the academic factor. Should Spanglish also be an accepted form of teaching Spanish in the classroom? I won?t use an example the other way around meaning should it be an acceptable way of teaching English in the classroom because I am referring to the USA an official English language country. Neologisms are created and used daily, verbs are created for the lack of knowing the proper Spanish verb, as well as the conjugation patterns become a challenge. As the world becomes more linked via globalization how is the integrity of the two languages maintained at best because as evidenced there is infiltration in both languages?

I think Spanglish has and will continue to effect Hispanic/Latino youth and now the older population as per the CNN en espa?ol report in the US because it will promote deficiencies in English and Spanish (both written and spoken). Without a strong academic foundation I believe Spanglish will be counterproductive rather than productive. I am sure you have witnessed some of deficiencies I am referring to in any large city in the US where there is high concentration of both languages i.e. NYC, Miami, Washington, D.C. etc.

Personally, I think it?s depressing that a person from let?s say Bolivia, Paraguay, or Chile and may be a few other countries where there is less influence of English may have to adopt this way of speaking should s/he choose to emigrate to the US. I agree with the CNN en espa?ol report in that this ?new currency? as you state is actually an impediment or a barrier.


-Lesley D-

I have been back and forth on the best way to epxress my feelings about Spanglish. I finally came up with this analogy. All language is a form of currency, and Spanglish is no exception. It has a certain value to those who use it. You may not like it or see it as a problem but the fact is, it really does have value to those who use it. Now, will its use "devalue" the two languages it derives from? Maybe on the surface it appears to cheapen two otherwise fine and noble languages....but in reality it is the currency of the newly-arrived as well as the well-established. It's the new money of people who command both tongues. It will not disappear.

 

[Gimabella]

Spanish is just dificult..

I have been back and forth on the best way to epxress my feelings about Spanglish. I finally came up with this analogy. All language is a form of currency, and Spanglish is no exception. It has a certain value to those who use it. You may not like it or see it as a problem but the fact is, it really does have value to those who use it. Now, will its use "devalue" the two languages it derives from? Maybe on the surface it appears to cheapen two otherwise fine and noble languages....but in reality it is the currency of the newly-arrived as well as the well-established. It's the new money of people who command both tongues. It will not disappear.

Is there a book we can use to better our use of the Spanish at a more appropriate level? I don't know if it's correct to say this but I am embarrassed to say I speak Spanglish not English not Spanish but spanglish and it has been so hard for me as well as for many I am sure to stick to just one language. In my case When I speak to someone that only speaks English it is challenge and the same goes when I speak to someone in Spanish, someone suggested that I should just talk to myself, I have but feel silly about it.

It?s so difficult being bilingual, I learned Spanish at home in a Dominican household and then learned English at school, a school where the majority of classmates spoke Spanish and were Bilingual so English was only spoken with teachers all throughout High school and some college. This may have affected our speech; I don't have that accent that Dominicans have which is usually very thick, but I do admit you can tell I?m Spanish just by hearing me speak, there is also another kind of Spanish called "Castilian" is this the original Spanish?

I agree with many Spanglish is becoming more and more of a serious issue, negative not positive, i am aware it sounds funny hearing people speak it in the streets, and it may be fun speaking it among friends and while a teenager. But I think that the older you get and the more education you receive the sillier it sounds, it is not professional and as someone who works in a professional environment it's very difficult and sometimes embarrassing...

Este Espa?ol me tiene loca.cuando no es una es la otra, ....

Gima

 

[Marianopolita]

Gimabella I will respond to your post in two parts....

Gimabella,

Here's a little history so you can understand why Spanglish and the effects of globilization is a concern.....


I have expressed my concerns and the problems associated with DR Spanish & globalization, Spanish in general, and Spanglish throughout this thread. It's wonderful that everyone has an opinion but when it comes to language "speculation" does not hold ground for very long. Not only do I strongly feel that the effect of globalization is a threat to the survival of both languages English and Spanish but for those of you who know the history this issue of purity of the Spanish language was a concern in the nineteenth century.

Long before I studied Latin American Literature I was opposed to the mixing of the two languages but I would like to share a little bit of history with you to validate my concerns. Thanks to Andr?s Bello and La Real Academia the purity of Spanish was maintained for decades until this modern wave of "neology". Its impact on the Spanish language has predominantly been in the last decade of the 20thC and definitely is a force to be reckoned with in the 21stC.

Andr?s Bello was a Venezuelan philologist (among many other careers) and a grammar revolutionary. His most famous work is La gram?tica castellana published in 1847. Andr?s Bello believed that the Spanish language (el idioma espa?ol) was the unifying element among Latin Americans and therefore should not be destroyed or infiltrated by other languages. According to Bello, neologisms (a new word, usage, or expression) lead to the destruction of the language and in fact this happened with Latin, which eventually was divided into the Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese). Bello believed that a universal grammar does not exist meaning grammar rules in one language do not apply to another (in this case Eng ≠ Span). The purpose of Bello's book was to preserve the purity of Spanish among Latin Americans. One of the key chapters of his book emphasized the need for unity among Latin Americans via Spanish ("el idioma espa?ol").

Along with his infamous La gram?tica castellana he published a special edition grammar book in 1851 and the key points include the following:

► es importante preservar la pureza del idioma de sus antepasados como modo de comunicarse y como herramienta de fraternidad entre las varias naciones de ascendencia espa?ola en dos continentes;

► un peor vicio es dar un significado nuevo a palabras y frases vigentes de esta manera causando m?s ambig?edad;

► Sin embargo, el peor de lo peor es la entrada de neologismos que seg?n Bello puede acabar con la unidad es decir ?una lengua com?n?. Los neologismos corrompen y alteran la estructura del idioma y suele convertirla en dialectos primitivos que representan el comienzo de futuros idiomas.

Bello was truly worried and dedicated to the survival of Spanish in Latin America thus created a life long grammatical reference that thoroughly explained Spanish grammar. Experts considered this reference better than La Real Academia's published around the same time.

With this minimal historical summary of Andres Bello's La Gram?tica castellana and creation of a governing body La Real Academia (founded in the 18thC) it is clear that if a language is not preserved, slowly mixed and fusioned with another it will eventually be lost. That is what happened with Latin, which eventually became four separate languages.

Source: Andr?s Bello, Caldera, Rafael. 1977.

BTW a copy of this legendary grammar book La gram?tica castellana is still on the market although difficult to ascertain. Good language and resource libraries usually have one or two.



-Lesley D-

 

[Marianopolita]

Part II of my answer

Gimabella,

In my opinion there are two ways to assess Spanglish:

* the slow destruction of two very important world languages (caused by co-existence and globilization)

* the fusion of two languages to possibly facilitate communication (thus creating a new way of speaking BUT not a new language because based on my comment in a previous thread for Spanglish or any variation of a language to be considered a new language it has to have its own independent grammar).

I taught for five years in the classroom and now I teach privately therefore, I have hands experience regarding the challenges I face(d). Some of the students I had who already adopted the mentality that intertwining both languages was acceptable to no surprise were my worst students. From an academic standpoint, I see no benefits. From a phonetic standpoint alone English and Spanish differ greatly. Some of my students insisted on spelling Spanish words using English phonetics. That is a combination for disaster. Students have a hard time mastering one language well i.e. grammar, spelling, syntax. Therefore, the fusion of two or using the two simultaneously can not be enriching. I believe bilingual education is beneficial and is a positive option for those who want to pursue their education in both languages. In the US, in large cities this is definitely a valuable option and should not lessen the quality of education. I know it is offered in some cities and there are some highly rated schools.

Spanglish as it is now (meaning how it's used and spoken today) is a problem in my opinion and in my "world" it has been always discouraged- "you speak one or the other". I am glad it was enforced becaused I have no notion to speak Spanglish and hopefully will never have to.

My suggestion is if you want to improve your Spanish go back to the basics. It never fails. Invest in "good" grammar book. Study it and you will slowly notice the world of difference in your own Spanish. I know you are fluent so it's not about becoming fluent in the language. As you said it's about polishing your grammar, spelling and sentence structure. Any grammar book you choose should have a section on phonetics, spelling and acentaution and if it does not do not buy it because that is the key to understanding how the language works if you want to improve in those areas. For any other suggestions you know where to find me.


Now on a lighter note....

May be you can teach me how to hablar Spanglish. A decir verdad, it would be hard for me to aprender a hablar as?. Adem?s, it gives me a headache y no suena bien. Crees que alg?n d?a everybody is going speak this way? Espero que no porque we will lose two beautiful languages y no es necesario. Me encanta el biling?ismo y I think it's posible. Nadie debe resort to speaking Spanglish. BTW me cost? trabajo escribir like this. ?Qu? locura!

-Lesley D-


PD. "el espa?ol" y "castellano" significan lo mismo. No hay ninguna diferencia.

Is there a book we can use to better our use of the Spanish at a more appropriate level? I don't know if it's correct to say this but I am embarrassed to say I speak Spanglish not English not Spanish but spanglish and it has been so hard for me as well as for many I am sure to stick to just one language. In my case When I speak to someone that only speaks English it is challenge and the same goes when I speak to someone in Spanish, someone suggested that I should just talk to myself, I have but feel silly about it.

It?s so difficult being bilingual, I learned Spanish at home in a Dominican household and then learned English at school, a school where the majority of classmates spoke Spanish and were Bilingual so English was only spoken with teachers all throughout High school and some college. This may have affected our speech; I don't have that accent that Dominicans have which is usually very thick, but I do admit you can tell I?m Spanish just by hearing me speak, there is also another kind of Spanish called "Castilian" is this the original Spanish?

I agree with many Spanglish is becoming more and more of a serious issue, negative not positive, i am aware it sounds funny hearing people speak it in the streets, and it may be fun speaking it among friends and while a teenager. But I think that the older you get and the more education you receive the sillier it sounds, it is not professional and as someone who works in a professional environment it's very difficult and sometimes embarrassing...

Este Espa?ol me tiene loca.cuando no es una es la otra, ....

Gima

 

[MaineGirl]

Ahhh, Lesley D. Your use of Spanglish--it does sound funny that way! Painful, actually!

Just like English, and Spanish, spanglish (I am not capitalizing for a reason) can have a street side. The street side will always be a bit ugly I suppose, although a well-made point is a well-made point when communicating, be it frespanolish. The importance is communication, not language purity.

As for the academic side...Try reading http://perranostalgia.blogspot.com/. The best way to "get" it is to command both. I have other examples, too. One is a great poem I use in class called "ESL: English Surely Latinized" which I willl dig up in my classroom files.

Spanish "unifying" Latin America? That's an interesting verb....

I'm thinking about your other points (you do make one think on things, for that I thank you.)

 

[hugoke01]

Digale(s) No La(s) Droga(s)

I have discussed this topic with my Spanish friends of Madrid and this is what they comment : El idioma utilizado parece o es un Espa?ol americano , en Espa?a se utilizar?a m?s la frase : " DILE NO A LAS DROGAS ", por tanto , de las opciones dadas, lo l?gico es utilizar la primera (DIGALE NO A LAS DROGAS ) , en el sentido de que se trata de una frase que "uno mismo" se debe repetir (singluar) , mas que una frase que debe ir diciendo a todo el mundo que le ofrezca drogas ..

La segunda opci?n se utilizar?a para una charla entre dos personas y uno le dice al otro en referencia a terceras personas "DIGALES NO A LAS DROGAS " ..

No se si est? claro o si le he confundido m?s .. pero es la explicaci?n espa?ola​

Pib,

Yes, that makes sense and that's why I would say: "Diga no a las drogas".

The campaign in English is emphasizing the action of saying "no".

So in my opinion the Spanish version should not have [le] or [les].

 

[Marianopolita]

Gracias pero....

Hugoke01,

Gracias por dar ?tu granito de arena? pero la explicaci?n de tus amigos espa?oles es peor gramaticalmente hablando.

The problem with this ?globalized? phrase is that:

#1- it is what is called a ?calque? which means it?s borrowed from one language and translated directly into another and with these types of phrases there is always risk of an incorrect translation because of the fact that the two languages differ grammatically.

#2- if one follows the grammar rules [le] or [les] are indirect object pronouns usually followed by a clarifying phrase (a ella, a ?l, a ellas etc.) so that the person being spoken to or reading the sentence understands who the pronoun refers to.

For example-

There are many possibilities: Dile, Diles, D?gale or D?ganles

Dile/D?gale ?no?- (?le? can refer to ?a ella? OR ?a ?l?) this clarifies to ?whom?. The same holds true in the plural.

Diles/ D?ganles ?no?- ("les" can refer to anything plural ? a los ni?os", ?a los estudiantes") etc.?


PD. No estoy confundida. Es una de esas frases que no tiene sentido si uno sigue las reglas gramaticales. Sin embargo, como he mencionado varias veces lo ideal ser?a quitar el pronombre indirecto [le] o [les]. No creo que valga la pena discutirlo nuevamente porque ya sabemos que el problema est? en el hecho de que la frase viene del ingl?s y al traducirla al espa?ol no se puede hacer una traducci?n sin tener en cuenta las reglas gramaticales del espa?ol.


-Lesley D-

I have discussed this topic with my Spanish friends of Madrid and this is what they comment : El idioma utilizado parece o es un Espa?ol americano , en Espa?a se utilizar?a m?s la frase : " DILE NO A LAS DROGAS ", por tanto , de las opciones dadas, lo l?gico es utilizar la primera (DIGALE NO A LAS DROGAS ) , en el sentido de que se trata de una frase que "uno mismo" se debe repetir (singluar) , mas que una frase que debe ir diciendo a todo el mundo que le ofrezca drogas ..

La segunda opci?n se utilizar?a para una charla entre dos personas y uno le dice al otro en referencia a terceras personas "DIGALES NO A LAS DROGAS " ..

No se si est? claro o si le he confundido m?s .. pero es la explicaci?n espa?ola​

 

[Marianopolita]

Otra cosa...

Hugoke01,

I just realized what your friends are trying to say. According to grammar rules [les] in that phase refers to "a las drogas" and NOT "a las personas". Por eso hay ambig?edad.

D?gales no a las drogas.


Suena aceptable en ingl?s pero no en espa?ol.

*** I just thought of way to say that phrase that would incorporate Spanish grammar rules and [les] would refer to "people" and not "las drogas". I could send it to you via PM just let me know***.


-Lesley D-

PD. Let's get back to the topic of the thread. If you want to know more about this grammar concept please send me a "PM". Thanks.

La segunda opci?n se utilizar?a para una charla entre dos personas y uno le dice al otro en referencia a terceras personas "DIGALES NO A LAS DROGAS " ..

No se si est? claro o si le he confundido m?s .. pero es la explicaci?n espa?ola​