GOOD vs BAD spanish

[Tony C]

First off they speak Portugese in Brazil not Spanish.

As for the Mexican it depends if he is educated. In most latin Countries the educated class will speak a "better" brand of spanish then the others.

For what its worth speaking so called "bad" spanish does nobody any good.

 

[MaineGirl]

slang...

Each country is different. In some cases a "mild" word in one place is a "severe" word in another.

There's no other way to go but dive in, so you are off to a good start.

I met a girl in POP from Manitoba, in seven months of immersion she was doing well in most tenses and with a great accent.

 

[Ken]

My friend and I are returning to the DR for an extended stay in March 2004 (1 month, year, life time???) and we are both concerned about speaking spanish. I was a afraid of speaking incorrectly while down there and did not want to offend anyone, so I was reluctant to even try.

GypsyGRL, that was a major mistake. You will never be reasonably proficient in Spanish if you don't practice, practice, practice. You are going to make a lot of mistakes, but will learn from them. Hopefully the people you talk with will call some of them to you so that you are less likely to make them again. But be assured that someone trying to learn Spanish is not going to offend anyone by the mistakes every learner makes. In fact, they will applaud your efforts.

 

[GypsyGRL]

First off they speak Portugese in Brazil not Spanish.

Thanks for the clarification, Tony but this young lady said she is also fluent in Spanish?! Maybe she is not the best one to learn form then, eh? As for the Mexican, not really sure where he grew up so who knows if "proper" spanish. I'll stick to the home sudy course, it has verbal lessons as well (done on the computer w/ mic) and rates your accent.
I guess when I get there I'll just have to jump in and go for it!

 

[Keith R]

Re: What's the difference?

My friend and I are returning to the DR for an extended stay in March 2004 (1 month, year, life time???) and we are both concerned about speaking spanish. I was a afraid of speaking incorrectly while down there and did not want to offend anyone, so I was reluctant to even try. We are both doing home courses and we have found two ppl in our community (northern Manitoba/ Canada!!) who are fluent in Spanish. My question is this- One is from Mexico and the other is from Brazil, will the spanish we learn from them be different than the Spanish in the DR? I'm hoping the basics are the same, I understand certain slang is going to be different. What do you guys think?

GG,
I speak both Spanish & Portuguese and have been dealing with Brazil & Brazilians for 24 yrs & the DR & Dominicans for 19 yrs. I would be careful about learning Spanish from a Brazilian. Most of the Brazilians I have met who claim fluency in Spanish speak well enough to get by in conversations with Spanish-speaking Latins, but their accent is usually very noticeable and often difficult for Spanish speakers, particularly Dominicans, to follow (note: when I first moved to the DR in 1995, I was occasionally asked if I was Brazilian because my accent was considered "strange but not exactly typical norteamericano." LOL). Brazilians also many times make the same mistakes Spanish speakers do when they first learn Portuguese: they assume that any differences in vocabulary to be so minimal as not worth paying attention to, when in fact there are key differences and sometimes these differences can cause you quite a bit of embarassment.
As for the Mexican, as Tony says, it depends on how well educated they are. I have met many well-educated Mexicans who speak beautiful Spanish, a joy to listen to, but have also encountered some at the other end of the spectrum that were nearly impossible to understand, especially if they resorted to slang (I find Mexican slang quite unlike Dominican slang) and that sing-song "campesino" drawl that Mexican comedians love to lampoon...
Finally, I would underline what Ken told you -- practice, practice, practice, no matter how many mistakes you make. That's the only way to learn! When I taught English at the Dominico in Santo Domingo I always told my students that I cared less about the mistakes they made in class discussion than I did about them "exercising their speech muscle" and learning from their mistakes. Often you learn more from the mistakes. And generally speaking, Dominicans are usually fairly patient & understanding with people whose Spanish is still a work-in-progress, and appreciate the fact that you make the effort to speak their language.
That's my dos centavos worth!
Best regards,
Keith

 

[latinarubia]

I think any spanish that you can pick up from any spanish-speaking country is better than none at all. I'm from Uruguay and our spanish is comparable to that of Argentina's and I had very little difficulty understanding the Dominicans I met.
I expected a much larger difference between our accents but it wasn't that bad at all. It's true that after some time you end up sounding Dominican without even trying so it's just a matter of time and practice.

 

[ERICKXSON]

hey guys my Mom speaks spanish and no body can tell where she's from and she's Dominicana

 

[Keith R]

hey guys my Mom speaks spanish and no body can tell where she's from and she's Dominicana

Erickxson,
My wife's the same way outside the DR and especially when in a professional context (she works at an intl org whose working language is Spanish) or socializing with non-Dominican friends here in the US -- proud of her "proper Spanish." But put her with her relatives in SD, or on the phone to them, and there's no doubt whatsoever what country she's from! :laugh: The kids and I find this hysterical because she's always lecturing us "not to speak Dominican"....
Best Regards,
Keith

 

[ERICKXSON]

hahahahahahahahaha! that's so true my mom and grandma were always on me and my brothers to speak the correct way they have no accent but get them together with a few Dominicanas and forget it.

 

[Hillbilly]

Good versus Bad Spanish

Point One: Spanish spoken poorly by a foreigner is understandable, most of the time. so, no matter what, practice with a native speaker. Keith is right about Brazilians.. Try getting baseball games in Spanish. Both Atlanta and Chicago and the Mets have Spanish language broadcasts as do the Yankees, and I'll bet the Red Suks (excuse me, Sox) do, too. And there are Spanish language-dominican-radio stations on the Internet.

Point Two: As soon as you open your mouth you are identifying your education, your "class" or lack thereof. In England, 5 seconds of conversation will place a person's birth, education and class. Same here or in any Spanish speaking country. While educated people might show accents, such as the ?" of the cibae?o (Poi faboi, Se?oi!) or the "l"of the sure?o (pol fabol, se?ol) or even the reversed reflexive of the San Juan area ( Me se cay? la taza), their use of vocabulary and ease of expression will show the background and education, although in none of the above mention cases would an educated person be quite so exagerated.

Point Three: Everyone has "language domains". These are linguistic habits, inate to us all, that control how we speak at different times. If you are talking to family members at home, you talk differently. If you are giving an address before an audience, you speak differently. If you are talking to your gardener, you will use a different language than if you are talking to a co-worker. What happens to foreigners, many times, is that they sustain contact with the poorest educated group of people. If they were to meet and know the hotel managers and the lawyers and the accountants, they would find a different language than among the activities crowd. Those who live here, as I believe Ken and someone else have poointed out, do find different levels of language.

Point Four: Good versus Bad. There is a difference, of course there is. Good Spanish is composed of a rich vocabulary, full enunciation and good grammar. Poor Spanish is limited to perhaps 600 words-the basic vocabulary of a typical high school student, but the pronunciation and the grammar is generally correct. Use good Spanish with people that can understand it and the poor Spanish with the people that can understand it...

Ken: You are right on about the Maine Girl!!

HB

 

[GringoCArlos]

Perhaps a better description of "good" Spanish versus "bad" Spanish is the description offered to me by my profesora - 'fea' versus "bonita" palabras. She is right on the money, and many of the words used here are muy fea.

I also met a lawyer here whose specialty is translating Supreme Court decisions from Spanish into English for US Fortune 500 corporations, and he told me that the absolute best thing to do in order to learn Spanish was to NEVER read a Dominican newspaper because they don't know how to write properly, and to read 25 books written in Spanish, with my dictionary next to the book, and to look up every word I didn't know. He said that by the time I had finished this exercise, I would know Spanish well, and have a rich vocabulary as well. He was right on, too.

Good luck.

 

[Hillbilly]

Sort of true

Your lawyer friend, if not a native English speaker will not be a very good translator, since the nuances of the English language far outreach the usages in Spanish.

Reading good books is certainly a start. But if you read Gabriel Garc?a M?rquez, you will be lost in Colombian words that nobody else knows or uses. If you read Borjes (ugh!) you will find a similar problem. However, if you read editorials and Op-Ed pages of the better papers, you will certainly get a good base for your Dominican experience. However, without oral/aural exercises you will be totally out of it when it comes to communicating. You must practice both talents. That is why I insist on talking to native speakers-the more educated the better-and listening to radio or TV...

Anecdote: A friend once reported to me and my wife that the best theing he liked about the Dominican Republic was the
Brugle Anny Joe - which, after much thinking, we discovered was Brugal A?ejo!!!

So try www.superregional.com and see if you can understand it, or listen to a ball game in Spanish. Warning: Baseball announcers that are not Dominican are not very good at what they do. "F?tbol" is okey but their baseball is poor: Try for Cuban baseball on the shortwave. That is baseball broadcasting at its best. Dominicans are a close second.

HB

Note: the word "majaguazo" will not show up in any dictionary, but it means "big hit" FYI!

 

[chicker]

This doesn't really add anything to the argument, but

I thought I'd throw in my tuppence.
Before my first trip to the DR in 2001, I had set myself on a course to learn spanish in 3-5 years. My tutor is cuban but the people I talked to mostly day to day were all mexican (cleaning people in my building, some of whom are now friends of mine). In two years I got good enough that I could carry on a fairly detailed and wide-ranging conversation with any of my mexican friends without a dictionary handy or any other aids. If I got caught on a word, I could at least describe it with words that I did know.

OK, fast forward to the old Cibao airport, October 2001, fresh off the plane. I could not understand a single word anybody was saying to me. I mean, not a word. And I don't think anybody understood me either. I think the rolling of the eyes is a universal gesture that needs no translation. I thought I was really 'ready' and I was not.

The silver lining is that I went back home and studied even harder. I don't know that I would have had the same motivation if I hadn't experienced that horrible feeling of frustration with no immediate solution in sight.

Last year's trip was much, much better, although HB did pounce on me immediately when I tried to get away with a "ma o meno" reply to one of his questions. "That sounds really strange coming out of an american's mouth," he said. I had to agree.

Books: I am reading En El Tiempo de Las Mariposas at this very moment. When I'm through, my tutor says I will have added three hundred words to my vocabulary that I'll never use again. Probably so..

Newspapers and Broadcasts are where it's at, I agree emphatically with HB. Read dominican papers (all available online) to get used to the words you're going to be hearing. Don't read your local bilingual paper unless you're only going downtown to Cinco de Mayo.

Rule of thumb: If you have a choice to spend an hour reading or an hour listening, listening is always better. Conversing is best, but sometimes there's nobody around to converse with.

Don't ever give up.

Elsewhere today, I used the word "ignominy" in a post. I was just showing off.

SLM

 

[Criss Colon]

"Total Immersion" is the method I used to get started

When I was in Boston,I had the "Dominican" radio station on my car radio.I played music tapes at work,at home,and in the car.Try to "sing along" even though you don't understand the words you are saying.Try to mimic the announcers,commercials you hear.Watch "Univision" on TV.You must also "read"as was stated earlier,and I found that when I began to write and send "Faxes" on a daily basis it helped a great deal!"Right Brain/Left Brain",you have to train both sides.Most important is to never be afraid to sound like an idiot.People love the fact that you are trying to leard their language.Cris Colon

 

[Ken]

The point about reading is a good one. I read so that I can hear myself, even though to others it looks like I am one of those people who moves his lips when I read. But I find it helpful to say the word and listen to the pronounciation.

Anyone who reads with a dictionary at his side, as I do and as was recommended earlier, should have as complete a dictionary as possible. Those pocketbook size dictionaries are so limited that they are likely to confuse you since the few meanings they give for a word often don't fit into the context of the sentence.

 

[chicker]

Oxford Pocket dictionary

The one with the black cover. Six bucks the last time I bought one. You will be amazed at the level of detail in the this little put-in-your-pocket reference. I don't go anywhere without it. If I get caught in a line, say, waiting at the bank. I just whip out my dictionary and start reading. I try not to waste a single second that I could be studying (although you shouldn't be reading while your spouse is telling one of those great guess-who-I-saw-at-Kmart stories ) . I just wish I hadn't messed around with so many others before someone tipped me off about the Oxford. Just another 2 cents worth.
SLM

 

[Arve]

I don't know much about languages but I'm a firm believer in the full immersion from the start variant. ( I suppose relative ignorance is a prerequisite for firm belief... )

I went to DR with no Spanish, but as soon as I landed on the
airport I started handing out my mom's homemade cookies and
kicked it off from there. Luckily, Spanish is quite easy compared
to the other languages I've experienced. The pronounciation and
grammar ( particularly the verbs ) is far easier to deal with than
say French, English and the Scandinavian languages ( Norwegian
in particular, though there the verbs are are easy. It is the nouns that make no sense ). The Spanish grammar is a neat,
flourishing garden, French grammar is a jungle.

Reading, listening and talking to everyone with no fear of making
a fool of oneself is also a basic requirement, methinks. Within
two months I was trying to explain basic English and Spanish
grammar to 50 rather unruly Dominican pupils as their regular
teacher was absent. Newspapers, academic texts, Petit Nicholas translated from French and of all, Gabriel Garcia Marques was what I started with. ( The latter is unreadable in any language, that's why he got the Nobel prize. )

I'm also very aware when I talk to people, always picking their
sentences apart and copying whatever is said and how it is
being said. Then I try it out on another innocent victim. I left
Ireland with a pretty good Irish accent, but now I spend too
much time with people from Sri Lanka so I sound like a Tamil.

I prefer private tutors rather than big classes. What I want
in my first lesson is a complete picture of what I need to know.
I.e. the complete grammatical structure of the language, including all the verbs in all the tenses. I want to be able to say:
"I want this and that", the vocabulary will come along later. As
a student I can be quite a pain for a teacher, but I'm paying so..

My brother achieved fluency after 6 months, Argentinian accent.
I can't match that, but from my level now I'll be ok in 6 as well.
Colombian accent.

 

[Chirimoya]

Spanish proficiency test

There are two tests for establishing whether you have got there:

1. You can read the newspapers
2. You say 'ay' instead of 'ouch' (or c**o instead of s**t) when you crush your thumb with a hammer.

Chiri

 

[didi]

good versus bad Spanish

Just a thought about "which Spanish" debate: I agree that it's better to speak "better" than none. I worked in the DR for quite a long time and although my Dominican peers spoke their local colloquial [missing syllables and all], when I returned the exchange, I spoke "espa?ol claro" -- not eliminating the syllables. I will tell you, I got a lot of respect and it enhanced my relationships because I spoke "good" Spanish. Did it occur to anyone that when good Spanish is spoken, you are setting an example. It's no different than when you're teaching someone to speak English: would you speak "sloppy" English or would you speak clearly?

 

[Chirimoya]

I recently met a foreign couple resident here who had learnt their Spanish in Spain. They complained that Dominicans speak 'terrible' Spanish. First of all there is no better or worse Spanish accent, in my opinion, although there may be some that are easier on the ear depending on what you are used to, as applies to English and every other language. But to say Dominicans speak bad Spanish is just ridiculous. Does an educated, well-spoken Dominican speak worse Spanish than an uneducated Spaniard?

Chiri