Human Capital Shuffling Plan

[El Pachi]

Human Capital Shuffling Plan (WTF?!)

Nal0whs I believe my idea has more chances of succeding than your Human Mass Relocations... You actually believe that the WILL of these people will be manipulated, and that they will come programmed with the different languages they need to live in these different countries.

Furthermore, you think is a FACT that the countries that WOULD receive them, WILL ACTUALLY receive them!

You are a funny motha*****

Think about this: If you believe that if they receive money, they will spend it and go from unoptimistic to optimistic, then it is also a fact that when they find themselves in these new lands, full of optimism... at their 1st failure they will lose hope.

Please man, spend your time thinking about more realistic solutions. But I'll be honest with you... you accomplished what you planned to do: waste our time reading yor thread.

Good Job.

 

[Barry]

Ever hear of outsourcing ? - This is currently how major industrialized nations around the world are solving the problem
of high wages for low skilled workers. Major corporations have been and are currently moving manufacturing and services (such as call centers to third world countries.

The US has lost 3 million jobs in manufacturing jobs to third world countries in the last 3 years alone. Many by relocating manufacturing facilities and via outsourcing manufacturing and services - such as call centers, technology development, Accounting services etc.

I do not understand why the US does not take advantage of opportunities in the DR as manufacturers have done in mexico.

It may have to do with problems with infrastructure. Certainly trade agreements and politics could be a major motivation to begin and/or expand this process.

Anyway the point I was trying to make - The opprtunities that once existed for unskilled immigrants are not once they once were in the US. More and more Americans are taking lower payings jobs that were once reserved for immigrants. And this trend is accelerating.

 

[sancochojoe]

I agree Barry,

But you are preaching to the choir on that point. I think everyone knows nations such as the US are seeking out cheap labor instead of paying Americans $50,000 a year to make a shoe, or a put together a computer monitor.

Rich countries are services industries now and have evolved past manufacturing and assembly lines.

Are there large manufacturing plants in DR built by rich countries.
I've noticed clothing lables made in DR here in the States and in the country where I am, I've seen Nursuries selling Rum Barrels with Dominican Republic lables underneath the barrels. But thats about it. Oh and the Domincan Cigars in the grocery store.

Why are American plants prefering to go half way around the world to open a plant instead of the carribean nations such as DR?

 

[jsizemore]

half way around the world

Why are American plants prefering to go half way around the world to open a plant instead of the carribean nations such as DR?
stability. When the goverment of the DR will change laws and tax codes on a whim and not leave things ina status quo then a company can not project what the cost of doing business will be.
JOHN

 

[NALs]

Thank you all, again, for giving your insight on this topic. Even if the insight clashes with my opinion and/or if your insight is one that shows how unclassy and unprofessional a person can be. I am not pointing my finger at anybody, but most people have answer (for it or against it) in a professional manner, minus a few people that are more suited to live in the wild due to their lack of manners and unprofessionalism. Anyways, I appreciate the responses and I hope more people would give a civilized and professional opinion (for it or against it) about this topic. I felt the need to reply this because for some weird reason, it bothers me when people have to be "harsh" with their wordings to get across a point that could have been said a million more civilized ways. It's not that I am weak or anything, but I am just a person who had parents that cared about my well being in this world through being polite and careful about others. Please keep the responses coming in a civilized manner for it or against it. If you are a person that can't express your self with out using derogatory vocabulary or without actually getting angry or mad at this theoretical plan, then please don't post anything. Thank you all for your insight, I really appreciate it, please keep the replys coming.

 

[jsizemore]

value

Nal0whs
We all know this would never happen. The value of the debate is to explore all the reasons of why or why not it would be a good idea and see what kind of other information comes out of the debate.
JOhn

 

[NALs]

I totally understand and am with you on that one jsizemore. However, I am seeing some post (actually only one) that started to use "bad" or derogatory vocabulary. From my experiences in this board, once someone posts something in a derogatory manner, someone else makes it personal, and before you know it this thread is closed down because it no longer pertains to the original topic. I don't really want this thread to be closed anytime soon, I want to see what many more people think about this topic. (by the way, you are not whom I was referring in my last post, I believe that you're manner of giving your opinion is clear, consise, and yet civilized.) Have a nice evening.

 

[jsizemore]

Don't sweat the small stuff

Look I will tear apart you ideas where I have direct knowlege in. I feel that is what this is about. But I feel if I tear it apart I should do it politlely and with evidence. This is a hypothetical afterall. I do not think it in itself is a bad Idea so I feel what I have the obligation to attack would be the mechanicsof it. I feel I have done that by stating what would have to change in America for them to buy off on it or so forth.
The real value comes fromt henuts and bolts of the challenges. I feel I learn fromt hat. So ignore the bad attitudes of the debate and let the debate roll and see what happens. We all know it will never happen so why get upset about it.
John

 

[NALs]

Thats my point!

Thats my point. Since this plan will never happen, why would people get upset to the point of using derogatory or "bad word" vocabulary. You just made my point! Take Care.

 

[sancochojoe]

Re: half way around the world

Why are American plants prefering to go half way around the world to open a plant instead of the carribean nations such as DR?
stability. When the goverment of the DR will change laws and tax codes on a whim and not leave things ina status quo then a company can not project what the cost of doing business will be.
JOHN

India is hardly stable. Don't let your indian college friends fool you. Average annual salary in India is $500 a year. DR is $2400 a year. India consistent wars within there country and with Pakinstan is endless. Disease and famine the same.

Yet, my friend, India has the majority of call centers servicing hundereds of american companies. Based on the 60 minutes program today, they are being awarded contracts to handle American TAX RETURNS!!

India is hardly stable.

I can't even start on China.

I think the political relationship with rich countries is whats lacking with DR. Maybe if DR had a nuclear bomb, then the world would take notice. But there is nothing of value for countries like DR that would catch rich countries interest and would want to swap human resources or award benificial contracts..

 

[jsizemore]

got me there

I really dont know the answer. Maybe it is the size of india population that makes it easy to have the educated staff. And China remember the infrastructure is already there. India and China while they are third world in average wages there infrastructure is enormious. Nuclear weapons. Automobile factories for 75 years or more. Militarily America tip toes around both so we would not cause an incident.
The DR suffers from the Fact that they are not big enough to have a Domestic manufacturing system in place. If ford wanted to build PIckups here they woudl have to start from the ground up. In india they would just retool and existing plant. Same for China.
I am sure there are other reasons but those are the ones I could pull out of my a$$.
John

 

[sancochojoe]

Politics and market is the driving force for many rich countries.

Look at China and Cuba. Two communist countries. If Cuba had a Billion people running around in the Caribean. I doubt if the US would have an embargo. imagine how much money you would make selling 5 packs of cigarettes to 25% of a billion people.
Just imagine what Bill Gates would make. And its just a boat ride from Florida.

For cuba, Politics is the exuse, but in reality their is nothing there of importance to wet the desire for countries like US. I would equate The Dominican Republic as an experement of what life would be like in Cuba if it had the ideal Political Structure the US would like.

Just like DR, a bunch of tourist spots, cacinos and hookers for American and Eurpean tourist.

So unless DR makes some major breakthrough to utilize its Human resources or make some major breakthrough in Technology or Services. There will be no major changes and Rich countries will not show much interest except for a tourist spot.

 

[caicos]

Human chess board

Several points for argument's sake:

What would you call well-educated?
Under 1/3 of the US population is college educated, which
means that 2/3 are high school educated or less.

Europe, Canada and Israel may be well-educated, but the US
isn't. Asia I don't know about.

Deporting (which is what you are suggesting) the 60% of "poor uneducated Dominicans" your words, would immediately create an elitist society in the DR (especially, if as you suggest, Haitians be brought in to do manual labor for the Dominicans). Is this what you were aiming for? The 16 "host" nations have to take in your poor and have multi-socio-economic strata, but the Dominican Republic or other 3rd world nations can dump their poor uneducated on first world nations and have an elitist society?

As a first world nation with my own poor why would I accept 300,000 Dominican poor?
To be viable in the economy these people would have to be
educated so they can start their new business owner lives.
Why wouldn't I just educate my own poor and make them
small business owners?

If I'm Israel I probably don't want or need a "mere" 300,000 more bodies to place in an already overcrowded nation.

And what about the poor uneducated people forced to leave their home countries whether they want to or not? This forced chess board of people you are attempting to shuffle around only has positives for the people left in the third world elitist society you have created.

Yours is a welfare mentality. You have (first world countries) so it is your responsibility to give to me (third world country) because I'm not smart enough, or inspired enough to fix my own world. If I was from a third world country, I would be offended by your assumptions about my country and my fellow citizens.

 

[Chris]

Re: Human chess board

Yours is a welfare mentality.

I cannot agree that this proposal is, or leads to, a welfare mentality. Somewhere in the '60's the US Ambassador to India at the time, name of John Kenneth Galbraith, wrote small book - The Nature of Mass Poverty.

His premise in this book was that if the disadvantaged and the poor of the world were allowed to migrate at will, the world's requirement for resources and the needs of the poor will be solved by natural mechanisms. The poor could put together whatever resources they were able to put together in order to migrate to where work existed, and thus improve their own lot in life. No-one then plays Santa Claus to the world's poor or disadvantaged and no-one blocks their entry where-ever they are able to make a living.

I've never been able to answer this question definitively for myself, but quite like this idea. It looks to me like a very natural way of leaving things to be and leaving whatever power people have, in their own hands.

 

[caicos]

Migration at will

So does this mean that all people of any socio-economic class should be allowed to migrate at will? If so, will you not end up with an even greater disparity in wealth? Or is it that those who don't have, for whatever reason, can move at will? Personally, there are several places I would like to live, but because of cost factors, fees, etc. I can not afford to move at will. If you look at all of the messages on this board and many like it, you will see the repeated statement to bring your own money because the economy can not support its own people let alone foreigners. Why not support your own poor instead of others" poor? If you no longer have poor in your society, then perhaps if you have a glut in finances and jobs that need to be done, you might consider taking in others. This by no means is a statement that nations should not help one another when feasible, but the nations who have built themselves up should not be totally responsible for those who repeatedly get help and through corrupt government or mismangement constantly need more help. This old saying is still true. Give a man fish and he will eat today, teach a man to fish and he will eat for his lifetime. So perhaps the first world nations should be allowed to go to third world nations and teach them how to function. Problem is who wants to have someone else's will imposed on them?

 

[Tordok]

Good thread! The logistical details aside, the Human Capital Shuffling Plan (HCSP) is fundamentally not absurd at all. The so called global village is quite possibly the aim of the species. At the end of the day, interdependence is the inescapable reality of all living in this planet. Offering creative ways to "regulate" some of these inevitable movements seems fine with me. In this new millenium, we have the ability to shed our ancestral tribalisms and move forward. Your HCSP has been already at play for eons, perhaps without such a cool name. People coming and going is the history of every human being.

Please allow me to highly recommend a book to anyone interested on seeking more rational arguments about the origins of civilization. The book is
called Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond.
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring99/gunsgerms.htm
(I have no commercial ties with either author or publisher of that site; the link is just a courtesy to review the references).

This stuff is erudite work exploring human migrations and development around the globe. It is a serious analysis about the 'ultimate' reasons for technological differences among various civilizations. And how different cultures are just that, different, due to their natural habitat; and not necessarily better or worse than the next.

-Tordok

 

[sancochojoe]

Yep, I read the book. In essence. Who you are, where you are and what you are is simply pure "luck".

And so far Dominicans and many other countries in the region have basically "lucked out" so far.