In Support of the High Court Decision

[K-Mel]

Yeah, but those censuses were made when the sugar industry was the mainstay here (XVIth century). After the Brazilian competition displaced this colony, and Havana was made the main Caribbean Spanish port, everything changed. The sugar economy would collapse and the massive importations of African slaves wouldn't reappear on the island until the French changed the economy of their own part of the island from a tobacco cultivating one to a sugar plantation one following the Jamaican model (1697). Plus, most of the slaves from that first sugar period would die from the smallpox and measles epidemics that happened here during the XVIIth century, which would be called the "century of misery" by the chroniclers, and part of their labor in the countryside would get to be replaced by Canarian inmigrants (from 1680-1795), as well as contraband importations of African labor from the French colony and Curacao. Heck, Gurabo's family itself would come to this island as part of the Canarian wave.

NS, I agree with most of what you said , except that smallpox epidemics during that ingenio period also killed many native Indians ( as reported by Juan Bosch in Composion Social Dominicana) because they were also slaves in these ingenios , yet native indian ancestry is still to be found in the DR and is still surpassed by african ancestry.

The latter censuses in the 19 th century of santo domingo documented by Carlos Larrazabal Blanco ("Los Negros y la esclavitud en Santo Domingo") or Jos? Antonio Saco ("La supresion del tr?fico de esclavos africanos en la isla de Cuba") consolidates one fact : The mulatto and/or black element always surparssed the European element in the DR from colonial times to nowadays.

I see two periods

(1) The African element surpassed both Spanish ( and others) and Native Indians , rougly from the beginning of the 16 th until the beginning 17 th century : mainly due to the ingenios and during this period La Hispaniola was a maroon colony ( Sebastian Lemba and others)


(2) The Mulatto element surpassed the pure black element ( ? la Haiti) mostly when the slave owners were broke and had to mingled with their slaves roughly from 17th to nowadays ( starting from Osario period) : mainly because most the spanish had left La Hispaniola for the main continent ( more gold and wealth) and la Hispaniola already drained from his wealth was abandoned by Spain

However my statement remains the same, if the DR nation remains a mulatto nation today in 2013 it's because that one time of history this country looked like Haiti ( more especially during that Ingenio's period that is true)

As example , during antiquity North Africa was a black area ( cf : Tassily Frescoes) , Romans calling the inhabitants Maurus , Greeks Mauros. Mauritania and Morocco named after that population. Heck with the time , invasions , migrations ( native spanish who became muslims) , slavery ( see Robert Davis " Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters") etc. North African do not represent anymore the people represented on the Tassili.

 

[Naked_Snake]

NS, I agree with most of what you said , except that smallpox epidemics during that ingenio period also killed many native Indians ( as reported by Juan Bosch in Composion Social Dominicana) because they were also slaves in these ingenios , yet native indian ancestry is still to be found in the DR and is still surpassed by african ancestry.

The latter censuses in the 19 th century of santo domingo documented by Carlos Larrazabal Blanco ("Los Negros y la esclavitud en Santo Domingo") or Jos? Antonio Saco ("La supresion del tr?fico de esclavos africanos en la isla de Cuba") consolidates one fact : The mulatto and/or black element always surparssed the European element in the DR from colonial times to nowadays.

I see two periods

(1) The African element surpassed both Spanish ( and others) and Native Indians , rougly from the beginning of the 16 th until the beginning 17 th century : mainly due to the ingenios and during this period La Hispaniola was a maroon colony ( Sebastian Lemba and others)


(2) The Mulatto element surpassed the pure black element ( ? la Haiti) mostly when the slave owners were broke and had to mingled with their slaves roughly from 17th to nowadays ( starting from Osario period) : mainly because most the spanish had left La Hispaniola for the main continent ( more gold and wealth) and la Hispaniola already drained from his wealth was abandoned by Spain

However my statement remains the same, if the DR nation remains a mulatto nation today in 2013 it's because that one time of history this country looked like Haiti ( more especially during that Ingenio's period that is true)

As example , during antiquity North Africa was a black area ( cf : Tassily Frescoes) , Romans calling the inhabitants Maurus , Greeks Mauros. Mauritania and Morocco named after that population. Heck with the time , invasions , migrations ( native spanish who became muslims) , slavery ( see Robert Davis " Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters") etc. North African do not represent anymore the people represented on the Tassili.

K-Mel, if you ever have the chance of finding this book:

Charles Frostin, Les r?voltes blanches ? Saint-Domingue aux XVIIe et XVIIIe si?cle - Cairn.info

I'd love if you were to make a review to see if it would be worth the pain for me to sit down and make a translation page by page.

 

[bronzeallspice]

That is true, Americans say this to black AAs and it is also blatant racism.

For the 2nd point it is also a general argument launched by the Anti-Haitians but it is a TOTAL LIE : the target was the French (and some French have been saved as recorded by the French themselves) , the other whites ( Germans, Polish, English, US Citizens) were not killed.

If you read French you can download Thomas MADIOU’s, and Beaubrun ARDOUIN’s accounts of the events of 1804 (French Massacre) , 1805 (Haitian attack to expel the French in Santo Domingo), and 1822 (Haitian occupation of the DR) from : there are definitely many distortions done in some Dominican history books for sure and they diffused to an entire nation. Some of these accounts are also detailed by French sources like Gaspard Theodore Mollien and others...One needs to be fluent in French and Spanish to see all the distortions, and cover ups unfortunately done by some Dominican historians, which obviously led to bad feelings or wrong interpretations of historical facts.

We need also to point out one important fact , for the records not only Haitians massacred the white French. Spanish ,Dominican troops and Haitian former revolutionaries ( Jean Fran?ois,Biassou etc) all under the Spanish Flag massacred around 1000 French civilians (Men, Women , Children) in Fort Dauphin in July 1794. The execution squad Led by a Dominican priest named Vasquez ( he convinced them to come back to St Domingue, then he ordered the massacre) . And the execution squad was former mainly by Spanish and Dominican soldiers ( Spanish wanted to have more men in order to control their Haitian regiment in case of troubles…) , Vasquez died during the Haitian attack of 1805.

So if we follow your logic, what about the Dominican cleansing of white people ? It is total obviously distortion…

Dominicans kicked out the French from Santo Domingo ( with Spanish and English help) not because they were whites but invadors and oppressors. Like the Dominican fighters ( most of them being black and mulattoes) who kicked out the English in the 1650’s from Santo Domingo.

Haitians kicked out the French only because they were bloody murderers and wanted to re-enslaved the entire nation. Toussaint protected them when he was in power and control. The hatred feelings towards them started really when they find out that the same people which they protected (even after years of slavery/ oppression/ discrimination) led Napoleon’s army to hunt them down…

I have also a question for you : What about the French plan to kill all the "slaves" ( an act already seen and done in ancient Rome BTW, during the slave revolts) as planned by General Leclerc and the French Army ? Was it also a plan to kill all the blacks ?

More than 100000 Haitians (mostly civilians )died during this revolution vs 50000 French ( mostly soldiers). So French killed more men, children, women, and old people than anyone in that Island ( those victims Mulattoes and Blacks) ONLY because one thing they did not want the mulattoes ( their offspring) with the same rights ( this is the cause of the Haitian revolution, nothing else).

Let us be fair and say that Haitians (of THAT time , BTW Dessalines advisers to execute this plan were Juste Chanlatte and Boisrond Tonnerre , two mulattoes...) killed around 3000 French by revenge of the past atrocities.

Massacres of the same orders has been done by French, but those crying for the French massacre don't cry for the Haitian Civilian Massacre from 1791 to 1804 not counting the atrocities done for years since 1697, and I am asking myself why ? What is the reason for this double standard perception for the same wrongful acts ?

Haitians act of 1804 were also 100 % wrong, they should have been banned the French from the colony.

Last one needs to study Roman slavery, most of their slaves were Europeans ( Greeks, French or ancient Gauls, Spanish, Easterners, Middle Easterners etc) yet when they had the smallest chance they would cut their masters into pieces. Even in Spain (Hispania) which was a slave society in the high middle age, slaves would do the same ( the last big slave revolt occurred in Asturia in 702, 9 years before the moors arrived). We must be careful in not interpreting human reactions under oppression with racial interpretations for political or nationalistic agendas…

What the Haitians did to the French, European slaves did it also to their European masters in France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc, it is just bad reactions versus oppression.

Nuff said

And that is my point. There should be no reason why to continuously bring up the past
accusing one of committing atrocities against the other because it occurred on both sides

No one is justified.

 

[delite]

This is very funny!

 

[Quisqueya]

And that is my point. There should be no reason why to continuously bring up the past
accusing one of committing atrocities against the other because it occurred on both sides

No one is justified.

K-Mel,

Don't waste your time trying to educated Dumbinicans. Your post goes way beyond their education. Look at the response to such a depth reflection. Haven't you noticed that most enlightened people ceased to post. Why are you wasting your time with these people? Trying to educate them is a waste of time and pointless as they can't grasp what they are. Only a few here have even had the level of comprehension to respond beside the diatribes that pepto bismol will not sooth. Let's return to AFRICA and let them return to Spain.

 

[Lando calrisian]

Gee Quisqeya? Dumbinicans? Tell me how you really feel? I don't have time to post alot, because unlike many of you seemingly independently wealthy humanitarians, sociologists and apparent pro-Haitian activists, I gotta JOB, I gotta LIFE!!!! My fingers are also needed elsewhere. We Dominicans, from Dominus aka, lord, aka GOD! Yes you may call me God Quisqeya, it's all good. Can means, Dog, & yes, I LET the dogs out. Thus DOMINICAN!!!
DOMINICANS, buena bruta!!! Aprende!!!
Not Dumb. But Dominus!! Therefore, please address me as such or not at all Quisqeya.
Otherwise, I'll have to show you my intellectual depths. So if you wanna go to Spain or Africa g'head. I ain't gonna miss ya. Me? I'm a stay right here.

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[AlterEgo]

And another one bites the dust...... Any more 'Dumbinican' remarks in the Haiti forum, and there will be infractions given.

What is it that some people don't understand about NO INSULTS????

This thread is closed.