Is anyone missing Hippo, Part II

NALs

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thepiper said:
I imagine you 2 billion. The banks where missing about 80 billion. Their was about 2.5b for Listin Diario so on and so forth. The money went into the pockets of generals, reporters, church, the supreme court and politicians but mostly into the pockets of wealthy Dominicans who ran the banks. We as Dominicans can not forget the truth behind the failure of these banks. People who forget their past will eventually repeat it. Or something like that.

We can not lose focus of the real problem. Leonel and Hipo are the same species the difference lies in the way they feed. One feeds during daylight the other, with the cover of darkness.
But the facts show otherwise from popular belief.

If Leonel is so bad, why is the economy (Macro and Micro) improving by the day?

Why is investment up?

Why is confidence up?

Why is everything changing for an upward swing?

That's all I am really asking in various form. If the current government is so bad and evil (as Hipolito), then why are things turning around for the better?

This is taking into account that the the politicians with the power to ratify or reject any law or funding for any project is still dominated by Hipolito's clan!

Why why why?

I keep asking, but people don't answer.

Show me why and I'll consider your response (or anybody's) towards changing my points of view towards Leonel.

Is the guy perfect? No.

Is he better than any other alternative in the political arena in the DR today? Absolutely yes!

If you think otherwise, enlighten me by answering the questions that have not been answered by people who detest Leonel for nothing more than a false image some people believe of the guy.
 
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thepiper

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"Is he better than any other alternative in the political arena in the DR today? Absolutely yes!"

So basically I can some up your post as saying that we are "F*****d"

Why are you such a pessimist all of the sudden ?
 

NALs

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thepiper said:
"Is he better than any other alternative in the political arena in the DR today? Absolutely yes!"

So basically I can some up your post as saying that we are "F*****d"

Why are you such a pessimist all of the sudden ?
We are not F---- as you put it.

The reality is that this is as good as it gets for the moment. Any other guy in power would have sunk this country so fast its not even funny.

Leonel is giving the country some breathing space and the country is responding. Look, today reports came out that automobile sales are up!

I know suchthing is not a clear indicator of wealth, but if people are beginning to buy luxuries (such as new cars), then its obvious that things are on an upward swing.

Afterall, from the day Hippo took power, car sales have been sliding and now all of the sudden with Leonel in power, car sales (as everything else) is starting to pick up and move forward.

Leonel is the best thing to happen to the DR, period. People may complain, but we are moving forward and that is all that counts.
 

Chris

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Nal0whs said:
Afterall, from the day Hippo took power, car sales have been sliding and now all of the sudden with Leonel in power, car sales (as everything else) is starting to pick up and move forward.

Uhm... yes, from today's DR1 news, car sales are up, but so is the National Debt...
 

Texas Bill

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NalOws---I wish for ONCE, you'd take your head off

and look past the immediacy of current events, swivel that head around the horizon and look at things realistically!
You really do have a propencity for making erratic pronouncements based on the short term.

We know that you are optimistic about the DR, and that's good in some ways---until you start basing all your assumptions on the spoken word and not projecting the true events into the obvious future.

Ask yourself if you really think this metro Project is good for the country AT THIS TIME, when the country is saddled with a horrific national debt, foreign AND domestic and is struggling to make ends mee on that accord? Then to go out and actually borrow MORE money, just because there is a country that will lend it, to fund a currently totally unnecessary and expensive project as the Metro will be! AND doing that in the face of and to the detrement of other, more socially important, projects which are and have been underfunded for the past 4 years at least. Then comes the ever-present problem of the electricity sector, the solution to which is vastly more important and significant than the "traffic problem in StoDgo"!!!

You're supposed to be an economist. Or, at least you profess to be. How well you perform is VERY doubtful in my mind. you may have the educational background, but some of your pronouncements are really couched in stupidity.
I don't think you're stupid, but rather, you jump to conclusions out of effecting a defense of your country and it's activities on the home front.
A lot of what you allude to in your commentary is the result of increased confidence in leonel by the international community after having to listen to Hipolito's stupid verbal meanderings for 4 years. However, Lionel is rapidly losing the confidence he enjoyed upon entering the arena. And it's begining to show.
I equate Lionel's pursuit of the Metro with Hipolito's purchase of the Electric Companies. He had just been approved for the 600Million so he bought back the "E" systems. Lionel has just received approval if the IMF for XXXmillion so he opts for a Metro system, while violating the agreement NOT TO INCREASE THE INDEBTEDNESS OF THE NATION!!! I look for some form of reprecussions from the IMF regarding this action. How can the Gov pay for the IMF, the Paris Club, the World Bank, etc., etc. AND pay back Brazil for the Metro loan???

You're the economist, so you tell me!!!! AND don't forget to cite some TRU examples of how that is to be accomplished with an opposing Legislative body and a shacky business sector whose profits are being sapped by almost ruinous taxation!!
Ball in your court!!!!

Texas Bill
 

Lurch

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I clearly need to borrow those rose colored glasses

Nal0whs said:
We are not F---- as you put it.

Leonel is giving the country some breathing space and the country is responding. Look, today reports came out that automobile sales are up!

I know suchthing is not a clear indicator of wealth, but if people are beginning to buy luxuries (such as new cars), then its obvious that things are on an upward swing.

50% GDP debt load and rising

Violations of the IMF agreements

9000 jobs lost in FZ's in Feb

Government payroll increasing

A massive pork barrel project being undertaken (metro)

Manipulation of the exchange rate is costing milllions, how much longer do you think he can continue it?

Currently most of South/Central America is growing at 4-6% and the best estimate for the RD is neutral, and honestly not many have any confidence in the best case scenario calculation for the RD.

Breathing space? The country is living on remittances and loans, nothing has changed.
 

gringito

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And I Would Add...

Lurch said:
50% GDP debt load and rising

Violations of the IMF agreements

9000 jobs lost in FZ's in Feb

Government payroll increasing

A massive pork barrel project being undertaken (metro)

Manipulation of the exchange rate is costing milllions, how much longer do you think he can continue it?

Currently most of South/Central America is growing at 4-6% and the best estimate for the RD is neutral, and honestly not many have any confidence in the best case scenario calculation for the RD.

Breathing space? The country is living on remittances and loans, nothing has changed.

A complete lack of focus on the government's part on the real issues that face the DR. If the cost of electricity doesn't come down soon, the Free Trade Zones will not be able to compete with other countries with much cheaper electricity. If the trash continues to pile up on the roads and (again) if the price and reliability of electricity doesn't improve, touists will grow tired of coming and they will tell others. If the Dominicans living outside the DR start finally losing hope, they will stop sending money. At that point, you will have killed the 3 major economies in the country. USAID is funding the anti-corruption panel in the DR? The anti-corruption panel will be based in the Palace? I love being able to watch the little minions while they work, don't you? Hippo accomplished very little in his administration but he also had some ugly stuff to deal with from before he arrived. He didn't sign the Cogentrix deal. He didn't sign the Smith - Enron deal. Baninter didn't start on his watch. He did the buyback of the EDES but Fenosa didn't really give him a choice. And neither did IMF at the time. I don't like the Hippo at all but he never asked me for a dime and you elected him, not me. He made some very bad decisions in the people who he chose as his Secretaries and they definitely had their own agendas.
 

Bartolomeo67

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Brazilian connection?

What is Leonel's brazilian connection?
Too many things are going on with Brazil to be normal:
- Brazilian engineering company to work on hydro-electricity projects in DR
- Brazilian beer company taking over Pepsico in SD
- Brazilian airline co. to fly to DR
- DR and Brazil presidents visiting back and forth
- Brazilian funding for the metro
all this in the last couple of months...
Bartolomeo
 

project9

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50% GDP debt load and rising

You know this for a fact? Is there any piece of data online that supports this claim?

Violations of the IMF agreements

Which violations? Can you cite at least one?

Manipulation of the exchange rate is costing milllions, how much longer do you think he can continue it?

Yeah right, i guess you belong to the group that said that after december the dollar was going to reach higher than when hippo was in the chair.
 

project9

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Sure the metro is a bad idea right now. And is true that gringos who receive dollars have less purchasin power (bohoo) but the country feels much better than when hippo was in the chair ... at least for us dominicans.
 

mondongo

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50% of GDP debt load

project9 said:
You know this for a fact? Is there any piece of data online that supports this claim?

Yes, that is a fact.

Tell you what, project9, why don't you gather the other Dominican pollyannic posters in this forum, go to the Central Bank website. See if you can figure out whether the debt load is 50% and rising. Then get back to me.

Except for Golo, it seems that most of the Dominicans in this forum need to gently extricate head from sand.
 
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You don't even have to go that far!!

mondongo said:
Yes, that is a fact.

Tell you what, project9, why don't you gather the other Dominican pollyannic posters in this forum, go to the Central Bank website. See if you can figure out whether the debt load is 50% and rising. Then get back to me.

Except for Golo, it seems that most of the Dominicans in this forum need to gently extricate head from sand.


Mondongo:

Yesyerdays dr1 news (still up as of this moment) carried a piece entitled "National debt to continue climbing." While on its face a 50% debt to GDP may not be enough of a magic bullet statistic to wake up the rose colored glasses folks as to the road the DR is now on, but I would pose the questions, how will the DR extricate itself from this potentially perilous situation? More taxes? Increased revenues? Debt repudiation?

Respectfully,
Playacaribe2
 

NALs

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Learn to say "Compared to What"...

Here are a few statistics that you guys should look at and apply to the DR currently.

I know the DR doesn't fit some of the categories these countries found themselves in each example, but in many cases the DR is in much better condition than most:

Sample 1:
Anualized Per Capita GDP Growth, 1900-2000
war damaged countries (from ww1 and 2)

Belgium 1.75% GDP per capita growth
Denmark 1.98%
France 1.84%
Germany 1.61%
Italy 2.18%
Japan 3.13%
Netherlands 1.69%
Spain 1.91%

The average GDP growth for war-torned countries 2.01% per year

Not War Damged

Australia 1.59%
Canada 2.17%
Ireland 2.08%
Sweden 1.96%
Switzerland 1.72%
United Kingdom 1.41%
United States 2.00%

The average growth for not war damaged countries 1.85%
Source: Angus Maddison, The World Economy:A Millenial Perspective

The DR GDP growth average over the 1990s? 7.10%
The DR GDP growth as of 2004? 2.00%

Sample 2:
Growth of Per Capita GDP in the 16th and 17 Century (in US$)
1500 1700 Growth Rate
Holland $754 $2,110 0.52%
England $714 $1,250 0.28%
France $727 $986 0.15%
Italy $1,100 $1,100 0.00%
China $600 $600 0.00%
source: Angus Maddison, The World Economy: A Millenial Perspective

Now think for a minute. These are the economic growth of these countries over a 100 year period over 500 years ago. At the same time, what was to become the DR was a colony of Spain with a much lower economic growth than these countries that are rich today (except China). Today, the DR is growing either at or above the growth that has been sustained by many of the world's richest countries, that means that the DR will acquire more wealth faster than the rate that was acquired by the currently richest countries.

So where is the problem?

Sample 3:
Federal Debt Held by the Public as a Percentage of GDP: 1946 to 2001 in USA
1945 over 100%
1950 77%
1955 54%
1975 25%
1985 27%
1990 28%
1995 50%
2001 27%
2004 61% (thank the war in Iraq)*
Source: Economic Report in the President, the Joint Economic Committee, US Congress

DR current Federal debt held by the public as a percentage of GDP: 50% as is claim in this thread.
Take into consideration that today's DR economy resembles the American economy of the 1920s and 1930s.

Sample 4:
Relative to GDP, Net Public Debt in Other Major Economies
Italy 100%
Canada 65%
Netherlands 50%
Japan 43%
Spain 42%
France 42%
Germany 41%
UK 27%
Australia 15%
Source: OECD Economic Outlook

So the question now is this:

What is all the fuss about the DR collapsing, economic crisis, blah blah blah???

The country has been progressing since Leonel took office, just look at the data and compare to the best economic performing nations on earth. Things are looking brighter than most DR1ers are willing to accept.

What a pity.
 
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Chris

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Nals, now that I've calmed down from one of your statements in another thread ;) (no bad feelings there at all - I hope you know this)... the issue is not really the size of the debt. The first concern is the ability to pay back the debt while maintaining independence and maintaining a national identity - not becoming a "McDonalds Clone Society".

Then, will this debt lading still allow reasonable internal taxation levels for wage earners as well as businesses, will business confidence and continued investment in the country be maintained -- will a reasonable level of growth be maintained? For the moment, leave the power problems, infrastructure problems like crappy roads and 'simpler' things, like education and care for the aged outside of this, just for a moment though..

The further issue of concern is the use of the funds secured by loans. For the most part, we do not see the loans being employed or used to effect stable and long term growth. We also see too much money disappearing into the ether. We (well, I should talk about myself) are not a war torn society. So we cannot make those comparisons from war torn societies.

I am an optimist - the glass is half full for me most of the time ;) But I am also a realist. Gross fiscal and economic mismanagement will bounce back to haunt this country.

Despite all my words above, the question is simple. How is the debt going to be repaid?
 

NALs

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Nals, now that I've calmed down from one of your statements in another thread ;) (no bad feelings there at all - I hope you know this)...
If I would have taken all the responses people give me seriously, I would have quited a long time ago from posting. I know that would make some people happy, but I'm an optimist. Never give up.

the issue is not really the size of the debt. The first concern is the ability to pay back the debt while maintaining independence and maintaining a national identity - not becoming a "McDonalds Clone Society".
As of right now, that is what Leonel has been focusing.

Thus, he restricted fiscal expansion. That resulted in putting a lid on inflation and the exchange rate. The rate went down to its real rate (not its panicking rate of uncertainty during Hippo) and reserves increased to the point that its surprising even the most optimist of optimist, myself included.

Paying the debt should not be of much worry for the time being and even for the near future.

Then, will this debt lading still allow reasonable internal taxation levels for wage earners as well as businesses,
As long that reserves increase and maintain a healthy level, repayment of the loan should not be a major problem.

Remember, a major reason for budget cuts in education, etc has to do with paying the overblown debt that Hipolito left the country with.

Remember, when Leonel left in 2000, the national debt made up 16% of GDP, four years later Hipolito left a not so nice present of debt making up 50% of the GDP as its claim on this thread.

will business confidence and continued investment in the country be maintained
Yes it will and this has been proven both in Leonel's first term and in the time he has spent in this term. The country has progressed more in the last half year than it did in the full four years of Hipolito.

In other words, for four years under Hipolito we were digging a hole, in this half year we managed to come out of the hole and now its time to build the latter.

Give Leonel a year and a half and then we can talk about things going bad. As of now, Leonel is doing a good job compared to nothing, and an excellent job compared to mr. Baldy Hipolito.

-- will a reasonable level of growth be maintained?
We are already at 2%! At par with the US and the economy is growing by the month. Every month its growing a bit faster, but the end of this year expect anything from 4 to 5% growth.

Remember how we ended 2003? -1.5% decline.

2.00% is sweet on its own, but my God, we have been blessed! Expectations was 0%, but we ended at 2% after having declined -1.5%. You can't say that is bad.

It will be maintained, unless some unforseable thing happens to the global economy.

For the moment, leave the power problems, infrastructure problems like crappy roads and 'simpler' things, like education and care for the aged outside of this, just for a moment though..
The major roads of the country are in fair conditions, good enough for a quick transport of goods from point a to point b.

In fact, Santo Domingo and Santiago on their own control a full half of the national economy and the last time I checked, Autopista Duarte is in drivable condition.

Don't want to drive, airports are all over the place.

State of the art ports are facing all sea directions.

The tourist who visit the north coast and Punta Cana think of those bumpy road as "part of their vacation experience" ;)

The major roads in the cities are in driveable conditions.

The major important buildings where the country's governance, finances, manufacturing, etc is being done are still able to be inhabited.

We have an adequate infraestructure. Is it perfect? No. Is it excellent? No.

Is it adequate? Yes.

You want to see a bad infrastructure, look at the western third of this island. When the most important highway in a country is little more than a dirt path at places, well, enough said.

Education, though the budget has been cut, should not be hurt too much if these cuts are override with increases in the next few years.

We (well, I should talk about myself) are not a war torn society. So we cannot make those comparisons from war torn societies.
That's precisely why I posted the war torn statistics. We are not war torn and yet we are doing way better than any war torn nation and we are doing better in economic growth than non war damaged countries.

I am an optimist - the glass is half full for me most of the time ;) But I am also a realist. Gross fiscal and economic mismanagement will bounce back to haunt this country.
Gross fiscal and economic mismanagement is what had been going on for the past four years.

What's happening right now is putting fiscal responsibility back into the picture and simply halting all borrowings will leave the government completely bankrupt.

Things move in phases, talk to me in a year an a half. Then we can talk as to where the country is headed. Compared to the fiasco we recently went through with Hipolito, I prefer this a million times over!

Despite all my words above, the question is simple. How is the debt going to be repaid?
By attracting more investment - which is being done.

Increasing tax revenue - which is being done with the new attempt to catch tax evaders

Increasing stability and confidence in the economy - which is being done

Re-instating economic growth - which has been accomplished

Re-instating a net growth of jobs - which has been accomplished

Increasing federal reserves - which has been accomplished.

All of this contributes to bring the exchange rate to its normal level because everybody is not hyper or afraid. A stable exchange rate eases the inflationary preassures. A stable inflation causes increases in real wages to be more noticeable and that leads to increasing consumption and increasing standards of living.
 
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Chris

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I'm going to sleep well tonight... Nals and Leonel has everything well in hand ;) . They are using my taxes and itbis that I pay every month very well. The exchange rate has stabilized at its 'real' level, the reserves are growing .. the debt? No problem, we'll pay that off lickety split... and be able to borrow more in order to grow more.. (I'm really not debt-averse in reality) Nary a MacDonalds in the country.. 2% growth rate growing to 4 or 5 by year end... Fiscal Responsibility is alive and well, better than Alan Greenspan can ever offer ;) inflationary pressures under control... Confidence levels on the increase, job creating growing... Yeah Man! I live in paradise! Now, I just have to find a 20 bucks to pay the aduana to let me in unmolested, make a sweet deal for the next product that I bring in.. Transportation, I should have been paying that ludicrous amount all along... Rice, chicken, it costs what it costs.. Education? no-one teaches properly anyway, what does it matter... we can fix it later. All this is exactly what I want to believe. Why then is my hair standing up?

Anyway, Nals, it is easy to take the Mickey out of you and tease you a little. Let's check all the stuff as it develops over the next few years and let's not stop talking. One thing I can really say about you, you hang in there.. You're truly a tenacious optimist!
 

Lurch

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Nal0whs said:
Take into consideration that today's DR economy resembles the American economy of the 1920s and 1930s.

I must admit this peaked a level of curiousity on my part. I assume you are not referencing the market crash and the global depression. If would enjoy reading a clarification and expansion on your quote.

Nal0whs said:
What is all the fuss about the DR collapsing, economic crisis, blah blah blah???

The country has been progressing since Leonel took office, just look at the data and compare to the best economic performing nations on earth. Things are looking brighter than most DR1ers are willing to accept.

What a pity.

The RD performance is not even in the ballpark of "best economic performing nations on earth". Honestly the RD not even in the best performing economies in Latin America. Even Argentina is expecting a 5%-6% jump in 2005.

Collapse? Always relative, however the RD model cannot continue in its present form for any extended period of time. How long are the banks going to be able to absorb the increasing debt of this adminstation with its policies?

How does the RD intend to become a viable economic entity? I asked this question before as have others. I want to see a verifiable model and plan to date we have seen nothing from the government, well not entirely true we have seen loan after loan after loan.

Remittances and loans are not a long term solution. I suspect you have read the studies regarding immigrants and remittance decline by generation and loans need to be serviced.

Taxes? Direct and indirect are already at or beyond acceptable limits.

Investment? Who? Why when there are more viable and attractive markets?

Stability? Has never achieved through artifical markets, in fact they generally lead the opposite direction.

l
 

mondongo

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playacaribe2 said:
Mondongo:

Yesyerdays dr1 news (still up as of this moment) carried a piece entitled "National debt to continue climbing." While on its face a 50% debt to GDP may not be enough of a magic bullet statistic to wake up the rose colored glasses folks as to the road the DR is now on, but I would pose the questions, how will the DR extricate itself from this potentially perilous situation? More taxes? Increased revenues? Debt repudiation?

Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

The debt will continue to accumulate as long as interest rates continue to fall. This could take years. What Leonel and the IMF are attempting to do is to foster the conditions that would facilitate more lending by the IMF and its corroborators.

These measures include: 1) tax "reform", AKA large tax increases, 2) large increases in net reserves. This is just a form of security for lenders, 3) increase the size of government relative to GDP. This plainly gives the govt control of more money, and thus a greater apparent ability to pay lenders. 4) fixed exchange rate. Prices are still at the level when the DR$ was 50:1. At 28:1, this has cut the purchasing power of remittances by 1/2.

From a DR resident's viewpoint, the DR economy did not grow in 2004. It took a 50% decline. THat is the reality. Over the next few years you will see some recovery in this loss, especially as interest rates come down. But this will come as a result of the new loans.

Eventually the debt will balloon, interest rates will rise again. And we will have another crisis. That is the cycle of life with the IMF and Banana Republics.

What can be done? Nothing that benefits the avearge resident. More taxes and more debt...
 

Lurch

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Plan 9 from.....

project9 said:
You know this for a fact? Is there any piece of data online that supports this claim?

Ignorance of an issue does not make it disappear. The CB website is a good place to start and of course its also a DR1 topic.

project9 said:
Which violations? Can you cite at least one?


1.Tax breaks for the sugar industry for the free trade agreement was certainly an issue to the IMF

2.Metro when the government continues with other captial projects. IMF has already issued a warning.

These are the most obvious, would you like to discuss the more complex issues?

project9 said:
Yeah right, i guess you belong to the group that said that after december the dollar was going to reach higher than when hippo was in the chair.

Actually no, I wasn't one who stated a 90 or 100:1 exchange. I hedged against this at 42. However <40:1 is completely unwarranted and cannot be defended by this administration for an extended period of time.

A number of banks place new business investment calculations for the RD at 50:1 +/- 10%.
 

mondongo

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Nal0whs said:
Sample 3:
Federal Debt Held by the Public as a Percentage of GDP: 1946 to 2001 in USA
1945 over 100%
1950 77%
1955 54%
1975 25%
1985 27%
1990 28%
1995 50%
2001 27%
2004 61% (thank the war in Iraq)*
Source: Economic Report in the President, the Joint Economic Committee, US Congress


Sample 4:
Relative to GDP, Net Public Debt in Other Major Economies
Italy 100%
Canada 65%
Netherlands 50%
Japan 43%
Spain 42%
France 42%
Germany 41%
UK 27%
Australia 15%
Source: OECD Economic Outlook

So the question now is this:

What is all the fuss about the DR collapsing, economic crisis, blah blah blah???

The country has been progressing since Leonel took office, just look at the data and compare to the best economic performing nations on earth. Things are looking brighter than most DR1ers are willing to accept.

What a pity.

Where did you get these numbers?

Federal debt held by public in 2004 was 37% of GDP .....not 61%.


Japan's 2004 debt is 90+% of GDP ....not 43%.
Those are 1997 numbers , Nal0whs.