- Thread starter Larry
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Pedro Martinez Refused to Pitch in All Star Game
TonyC: lets compare the career statistics of some of the pitchers you mentioned:
winning percentage: Pedro: 0.691, clemens: 0.659,maddux: 0.638,carlton: 0.574,nolan:0.526
ERA
edro:2.66,maddux:2.84,clemens:3.10,nolan:3.19,carlton:3.22
Hits/innings: nolan: 0.73, pedro; 0.74,clemens: 0.85,maddux:0.90,carlton:0.90
Strikeouts/inning: pedro:1.17,nolan:1.06,clemens:0.96,carlton:0.79,maddux:0.71
Notice that even in the strikeouts per inning, the one you would think would go to nolan ryan, Pedro wins. You cannot but conclude that he is far and away the best of this group.
The stats where he does not do well in are the longevity stats. All of the above pitchers pitched for a long time. This only fortifies my point....Pedro is far and away the best....but only if you give him more rest than the others.Note also that he is physically much smaller than the others.
winning percentage: Pedro: 0.691, clemens: 0.659,maddux: 0.638,carlton: 0.574,nolan:0.526
ERA
edro:2.66,maddux:2.84,clemens:3.10,nolan:3.19,carlton:3.22Hits/innings: nolan: 0.73, pedro; 0.74,clemens: 0.85,maddux:0.90,carlton:0.90
Strikeouts/inning: pedro:1.17,nolan:1.06,clemens:0.96,carlton:0.79,maddux:0.71
Notice that even in the strikeouts per inning, the one you would think would go to nolan ryan, Pedro wins. You cannot but conclude that he is far and away the best of this group.
The stats where he does not do well in are the longevity stats. All of the above pitchers pitched for a long time. This only fortifies my point....Pedro is far and away the best....but only if you give him more rest than the others.Note also that he is physically much smaller than the others.
Mondongo, thanks for the stats. Another unmeasurable stat is the fact that Pedro has been able to post those numbers in the era of the juiced ball, steroids, smaller fields, and bigger and better athletes. Simply amazing!!!
Go Reds! (Cinci, that is), well, for that matter, go BOSOX!!
Go Reds! (Cinci, that is), well, for that matter, go BOSOX!!
Pedro martinez is indepted to every baseball fan not just the people of Boston. Does he just pitch when the Red Sox are playing at Fenway? How about the Dodger fan who saw him earlier?
As for Statistics..... talk to me when Martinez has 300 wins or 4000 K's. Anyay Statistics are misleading. Compare Martinez's stats to Nolan Ryan's or Carlton's in their prime years. Lots of these players stats took a dive in their last years as they hung on too long or they played for lousy teams. Honestly if you were going to make a fantasy team of players in their prime since the late 60's would Martinez be in your starting rotation? If he is you know nothing about baseball.
Tony C.
As for Statistics..... talk to me when Martinez has 300 wins or 4000 K's. Anyay Statistics are misleading. Compare Martinez's stats to Nolan Ryan's or Carlton's in their prime years. Lots of these players stats took a dive in their last years as they hung on too long or they played for lousy teams. Honestly if you were going to make a fantasy team of players in their prime since the late 60's would Martinez be in your starting rotation? If he is you know nothing about baseball.
Tony C.
For the sake of including Koufax, I would say that Mart?nez would be my starting right-handed pitcher, and Koufax and R. Johnson would be my southpaws. I've seen some HOF pitchers, some of which are on the Century's team, comment on Mart?nez's greatness. A know-nothing like me would just shut my mouth and listen to Seaver, Gibson, Marichal, Carlton, and the likes, when they marvel at Mart?nez's stuff.
I have watched clemens' entire career. I saw lots of Carlton and Seaver. I have seen R Johnson and Maddux of course. No one has the movement on the fastball that Pedro has. No one has the change-up he has. Only Clemens and R Johnson come close in intensity. Nolan Ryan was NEVER considered a great pitcher. He was a .500 pitcher most of his career. Carlton? Come on....give me a break. No one ever feared this guy. Madduz is a better pitcher than those 2. You picked the wrong two, TonyC....If you want to throw someone at Pedro....try Clemens or R Johson.
Are there any other stats that are more meaningful for a pitcher than W/L percentage and ERA? Total wins...yes I give you that one..
Joseito, thats a great post. You sum it up pretty well. Bob gibson would give Pedro a run for his money.
Are there any other stats that are more meaningful for a pitcher than W/L percentage and ERA? Total wins...yes I give you that one..
Joseito, thats a great post. You sum it up pretty well. Bob gibson would give Pedro a run for his money.
jock tax in Wisconsin
I have always thought that every state taxed professional athletes when they came to play. I would be interested in learning if Wisconsin is alone in this category.
The premise was that the players' contracts are "personal service contracts" that make them something other than employees. In fact they are self employed and therefore liable for taxes for money earned in the "away game" venues.
Not sure, but I suspect someone on this site will know--or at least make up something pretty interesting.
Re: Pedro Presidente is far superior to Wisconsin's Blatz beer--so it was a natural choice.
I have always thought that every state taxed professional athletes when they came to play. I would be interested in learning if Wisconsin is alone in this category.
The premise was that the players' contracts are "personal service contracts" that make them something other than employees. In fact they are self employed and therefore liable for taxes for money earned in the "away game" venues.
Not sure, but I suspect someone on this site will know--or at least make up something pretty interesting.
Re: Pedro Presidente is far superior to Wisconsin's Blatz beer--so it was a natural choice.
Re: jock tax in Wisconsin
Abe
Depends on the State. Florida has no Income tax so there is no problem.
Mondongo.
Carlton wasn't feared? Forget it. You know nothing about baseball!
Joseito
Earlier in the thread we arbitrarily set a "Since Bob Gibson" Cut off date so I figure about 1968.
I'll take Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jim Palmer and Bert Blyleven. All but Palmer played on mostly lousy teams but their numbers don't lie. Of course there have been others who had better stuff for a short time but circumstances cut them short. If you ever saw Sam McDowell or Vida Blue in their short prime years you would understand what I am t.lking about. What was the name of that pitcher from the Astros that had a stroke on the mound. He had the most wicked stuff I had ever seen. I just can't recall the name now.
Everybody.
I do believe that Pedro martinez is a very good Pitcher. I just say he has to be as effective for a few more years before I believe he will be a "All Timer"
I wonder if Mondongo would be so quick to defend his outrageous behavior if martinez wasn't Dominican.
Tony C.
abe said:
Abe
Depends on the State. Florida has no Income tax so there is no problem.
Mondongo.
Carlton wasn't feared? Forget it. You know nothing about baseball!
Joseito
Earlier in the thread we arbitrarily set a "Since Bob Gibson" Cut off date so I figure about 1968.
I'll take Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jim Palmer and Bert Blyleven. All but Palmer played on mostly lousy teams but their numbers don't lie. Of course there have been others who had better stuff for a short time but circumstances cut them short. If you ever saw Sam McDowell or Vida Blue in their short prime years you would understand what I am t.lking about. What was the name of that pitcher from the Astros that had a stroke on the mound. He had the most wicked stuff I had ever seen. I just can't recall the name now.
Everybody.
I do believe that Pedro martinez is a very good Pitcher. I just say he has to be as effective for a few more years before I believe he will be a "All Timer"
I wonder if Mondongo would be so quick to defend his outrageous behavior if martinez wasn't Dominican.
Tony C.
Pedro Martinez....the Great
Pedro was thinking more about his team and his health by making his decision not to pitch. He's not some big 240 lb pitcher that can stay strong the whole season without a break. If you ever see him in person, you wonder how someone his size can throw a 97mph fastball. If he got injured in the All Star game, then he lets down his whole team and all the fans. I don't know how anyone can criticize him. Every time he takes the mound he gives 110% even if he doesn't feel 100%. By the way, I met Pedro yesterday and will post some photos as soon as I can get them scanned. I posted a couple of pictures of him and Manny in the media gallery. I'm not sure if they're up yet, but they should be soon.
Pedro was thinking more about his team and his health by making his decision not to pitch. He's not some big 240 lb pitcher that can stay strong the whole season without a break. If you ever see him in person, you wonder how someone his size can throw a 97mph fastball. If he got injured in the All Star game, then he lets down his whole team and all the fans. I don't know how anyone can criticize him. Every time he takes the mound he gives 110% even if he doesn't feel 100%. By the way, I met Pedro yesterday and will post some photos as soon as I can get them scanned. I posted a couple of pictures of him and Manny in the media gallery. I'm not sure if they're up yet, but they should be soon.
Tony C,
James Rodney Richards, or J.R. Richards, pitched for Las Estrellas Orientales, and in the majors pitched for the Houston Astros. He once told me that his fastball was faster that Ryan's, but that the powers that be would not say it.
I remember Vida Blue, and he was something else. Too bad MLB blocked the trade to the Reds. Imagine Gullet, Billingham, Seaver and Blue on the same team!
There have been lots of pitchers that have shown flashes of greatness for a short time, but Mart?nez is one for the ages. Guidry, Valenzuela, Soto, Cone, and a few others come to mind, but all come short to the likes of Maddox, Clemens, Mart?nez, Glavine, and the duo of R.J. and K.S.
Mondongo, or anyone,
Would an all-time Dominican outfield include any of the Rojas-Alou brothers, and/or Cesar Cede?o and Rico Carty, or will the current crop of Sosa, Ram?rez, Vlad Guerrero, dominate?
And since MLB considers A-Rod an American, who would be the starting shortstop? T. Fern?ndez, A. Griffin or Tejada?
I e-mailed ESPN's Peter Gammons requesting his opinion on an all-Dominican team, but I didn't get a response.
I asked these questions not for the sake of disagreeing, but to get other people's perspective and insight. I am easily persuaded, provided that the argument makes sense. Thank you.
James Rodney Richards, or J.R. Richards, pitched for Las Estrellas Orientales, and in the majors pitched for the Houston Astros. He once told me that his fastball was faster that Ryan's, but that the powers that be would not say it.
I remember Vida Blue, and he was something else. Too bad MLB blocked the trade to the Reds. Imagine Gullet, Billingham, Seaver and Blue on the same team!
There have been lots of pitchers that have shown flashes of greatness for a short time, but Mart?nez is one for the ages. Guidry, Valenzuela, Soto, Cone, and a few others come to mind, but all come short to the likes of Maddox, Clemens, Mart?nez, Glavine, and the duo of R.J. and K.S.
Mondongo, or anyone,
Would an all-time Dominican outfield include any of the Rojas-Alou brothers, and/or Cesar Cede?o and Rico Carty, or will the current crop of Sosa, Ram?rez, Vlad Guerrero, dominate?
And since MLB considers A-Rod an American, who would be the starting shortstop? T. Fern?ndez, A. Griffin or Tejada?
I e-mailed ESPN's Peter Gammons requesting his opinion on an all-Dominican team, but I didn't get a response.
I asked these questions not for the sake of disagreeing, but to get other people's perspective and insight. I am easily persuaded, provided that the argument makes sense. Thank you.
I was watching ESPN the other day, and they were mentioing that Miguel Tejada has had better numbers than Derek Jeter and Nomar Garciaparra over the last couple of years, yet he remains pretty anonymous, just like Vladimir. Because he barely speaks any English, hardly anybody knows him. I personally feel that since Alex Rodriguez is not considered Dominican, the best Shortstop to come out of the DR is Tony Fernandez.
Also, while steroids, juiced balls, etc might make a difference I think that Vlad, Sosa and Ramirez are definitely superior tou the Alous and Rico. Just look at the numbers.
Also, while steroids, juiced balls, etc might make a difference I think that Vlad, Sosa and Ramirez are definitely superior tou the Alous and Rico. Just look at the numbers.
I think Vladimir being in Montreal has a lot to do with it as well. If he gets on another team more people will realize how great he is. Manny Ramirez is awesome! His hitting speaks for itself and he has become so much better of an outfielder now. I was at the Toronto games this weekend and he made some great catches. The fans adore him. I would LOVE to see an all Dominican team!