Isn't it the opposite regarding Dominicans living in the DR? Don't they look up to Dominican Yorks for having the ability to be there?NY1 said:Until they do, our Dominican society within the US will be looked upon in a bad light by outsiders.
Isn't it the opposite regarding Dominicans living in the DR? Don't they look up to Dominican Yorks for having the ability to be there?NY1 said:Until they do, our Dominican society within the US will be looked upon in a bad light by outsiders.
CORRECTOMUNDO!!.carl ericson70 said:.
Now, on the issue of outsiders expecting dominicans to be black or percieving them as black; The reasoning is simple, the majority of dominicans(especially those who come to the u.s. and abroad) mostly register as blacks in the eyes of most americans. It's that bloody simple! Outside of haitians, the vast majority of blacks in the americas have some degree of racial admixture, but the trend has always been to view them as black. For example, most americans view tiger woods as that great young black golpher. Regardless of the fact that his mother is thai. That's just the thing... the spectrum for what constitutes a black person in the u.s. is very broad. Anything from coal black and very african looking to light-skinned & near-white looking. Many dominicans fall within that spectrum. Get it?
I think everybody "get it".carl ericson70 said:Say........ very interesting topic here and I've a few tid bits to add. Ok, I think one of the most difficult aspects of being a minority(as dominicans in america are), is that minorities are typically subject to stereotyping. Based upon behavior(fill in the sort)of some members of(fill in group). Unfortunately, a lot of innocent, hard working minorities don't often get noterioty and are lumpep together with the bad apples of the bunch. I think that's a part of the angst being articulated here.
On the loud-mouthed, crass beahavior and irresponsible lifestyles of some dominicans in u.s. that was mentioned in this thread: I don't think that simply living in america has brought this on. Truth be told, dominicans are often loud-mouthed in the DR. Not to mention that there's a lot of irresponsible people in the DR. Most of us here are aware that absentee fathersim is common in the DR and most babies are born out of wedlock there.
Now, on the issue of outsiders expecting dominicans to be black or percieving them as black; The reasoning is simple, the majority of dominicans(especially those who come to the u.s. and abroad) mostly register as blacks in the eyes of most americans. It's that bloody simple! Outside of haitians, the vast majority of blacks in the americas have some degree of racial admixture, but the trend has always been to view them as black. For example, most americans view tiger woods as that great young black golpher. Regardless of the fact that his mother is thai. That's just the thing... the spectrum for what constitutes a black person in the u.s. is very broad. Anything from coal black and very african looking to light-skinned & near-white looking. Many dominicans fall within that spectrum. Get it?
miguel said:CORRECTOMUNDO!!.
Are we forgetting that the vast majority of black dominicans are poor?. Since most poor people are black or mulatos if you may, ask yourselves: who are the ones that need to come and better themselves?. Answer: the vast majority. If the vast majority is black/mulatos, then that's all the guest-country sees.
The Dominican Republic has about 9 million people of which:
73% are "criollos"
16% are whites
11% are blacks(not counting people from Haiti).
Escott said:Isn't it the opposite regarding Dominicans living in the DR? Don't they look up to Dominican Yorks for having the ability to be there?
I think this is so for the following reason:If you are from the middle-class some may see you as a "loser" who couldn't cut it here (DR) and had to "migrate" just like the poor folks do. If you are a professional who went to further your education, then it tends to be viewed positively.
It is acceptable to spend a month or so (among this class) in Miami or elsewhere, but anything longer than that brings suspicion on his/her circle of influence here.If you are from the upper middle-class or from the socioeconomic elite, you are just taking an extended vacation overseas or else figured it more intellectually challenging to live in a 1st world environment.
This is very interesting. Reverse remittances, I wonder how much money flows in such direction?Funny, in the US I used to receive monetary subsidies from family in the DR, as opposed to the usual direction of overseas Dominicans helping their folks back in the island by sending remittances.
:glasses:
- Tordok
Stodgord said:Alright let's not start another long threaded discussion about Dominican skin colors. Two weeks ago a thread titled "Dominican and their ancestry" was closed because of this. People were getting too emotional.
On the other hand, I think most of us Dominicans are "inadapatados sociales", the things that tick me off the most is the unnecessary loud conversations, confrontational arguing and throwing garbage everywhere when there is a receptacle a few feet away. It is pitiful how Broadway looks, it is as dirty as la avenida Duarte. Please paisanos we are in a foreign land and we must abide by their living conditions. If you want to live in a dump, go back to your barrios, bateyes and so on.
Tordok said:mondongo,
Just because some of us don't fit your image of what a real Dominican is or should be, does not erase the reality that these Dominicans do exist. There is a tendency to dismiss the minority as not real. Just because in this case that group may be the privileged one does not take away the fact they they are as Dominican as the rest.
No one makes a prenatal request to the Almighty to be born with a silver spoon. I agree that it is not an accomplisment to be born with one, but it is not something to be ashamed of either, and this certainly does not make one to be less of a Dominican for it.
I was just trying to convey the fact to Escott (based on his question of how migrants may always be favorably viewed on the island)- that there is no monolithic way to do things a certain Dominican way, or that certain attitudes are shared by ALL Dominicans and somehow if you don't, then you are less than authentic.
The fact is that the universe of Dominicanhood is much larger than whatever few aspects of it you have managed to experience. You cannot exclude me from being Dominican just because we don't share similar demographic factors or socioeconomic experiences.
May very well be that I am part of a minority that is nonrepresentative of the majority, but I am Dominican, and I am real too.
- Tordok
:cross-eye
Stodgord said:Tordok,
Being Dominican is not just being born in the island, it also comes with the culture. If you don't display the typical Dominican culture how do you expect people to know whether you are Dominican or not. And I don't mean displaying "el tigueraje" but being able to identify with the music, the dance, the food, the past time (like dominoes), problems of the community, and the gathering of people to celebrate a birthday, graduation, christmas, new year, and so on. I have had problems identifying Dominicans (white, Black and trigue?os) until I hear and see them express themselves as well as many Dominicans think I am Hindu until they see me or hear me express myself. Like you said the only thing that would categorize you as Dominican was your love for Baseball, but this game is also shared by Americans (blacks and whites), so you did not stand out.
In the US you can tell someones ethnic background either by his name or by the ways he expresses his culture. You won't know someone is Italian until you hear him express himself or you know his last name, samething goes for the Irish and othe ethnic groups in the US.
Hey, Tordok,Tordok said:Stodgord,
Thank you for your feedback. I think that I understand your reasoning.
I also know that I may be promoting division, when in fact the complete opposite is my aim.
My issue was with the concept that some around the boards have, that in order to be considered "a real" or "true" Dominican any given individual must fit a rigid set of physical attributes and/or cultural affinities that, in my mind, just serve to perpetuate stereotypical mindsets about our nationality and in fact pretty much any nationality around the world. I find that there is an effort by some to reduce our national identity to a just few, sort of prepackaged clich?s, and this in my view is not always consistent with my experience as a Dominican. We need to value the culture, but within each culture there must be room for the possibility of diversity among individuals.
Just because someone was brought up in different circumstances within the same general culture does not automatically exlude that person from being authentically identified with that culture. Every society has "mass" or popular culture, but also other subcultures. Like I told someone in a PM yesterday: its a shame that even some of the well-educated among the posters (foreigners and Dominicans alike) purposefully fail to acknowledge or go to great lenghts to reject the notion that people like me do exist. They either think that we are lying as in a shameful cover- up of an unacknowledged Africanness, or else, that we are somehow showing off and feeling superior to them. Framed that way, it doesn't matter how reasonably, honestly, and respectfully I state those facts I will always end up with either the distrust of the public opinion on the board or its outright hostility. That, of course, is a 'can't win situation' over which I have no control.
Just because I chose to assert how I may be different with regards to possibly most Dominicans, that in no way takes away how in many ways I
am like most Dominicans. The issue is that there is a reverse form of classism, in which even well-intentioned individuals from the upper middle-classes are rejected by others who can't see how is it that someone can be both well educated and Dominican, or Euro-Dominican, or Buddhist-Dominican.
Using broad-brushes when trying to paint such an important thing as national character or identity inevitably leads to exclusion and rejection. I don't believe that I want or deserve to be excluded from identifying with Dominicanhood, just because others - even if they are the plurality - happen to think that I don't qualify.
cheers,
- Tordok
Tvagyok! said:Hey, Tordok,
To finish, we should be proud of who we are, regardless of what society thinks. It's not a perfect world and we can never make it one.
Peace and sunshine!
Tordok said:Stodgord,
Thank you for your feedback. I think that I understand your reasoning.
I also know that I may be promoting division, when in fact the complete opposite is my aim.
My issue was with the concept that some around the boards have, that in order to be considered "a real" or "true" Dominican any given individual must fit a rigid set of physical attributes and/or cultural affinities that, in my mind, just serve to perpetuate stereotypical mindsets about our nationality and in fact pretty much any nationality around the world. I find that there is an effort by some to reduce our national identity to a just few, sort of prepackaged clich?s, and this in my view is not always consistent with my experience as a Dominican. We need to value the culture, but within each culture there must be room for the possibility of diversity among individuals.
Just because someone was brought up in different circumstances within the same general culture does not automatically exlude that person from being authentically identified with that culture. Every society has "mass" or popular culture, but also other subcultures. Like I told someone in a PM yesterday: its a shame that even some of the well-educated among the posters (foreigners and Dominicans alike) purposefully fail to acknowledge or go to great lenghts to reject the notion that people like me do exist. They either think that we are lying as in a shameful cover- up of an unacknowledged Africanness, or else, that we are somehow showing off and feeling superior to them. Framed that way, it doesn't matter how reasonably, honestly, and respectfully I state those facts I will always end up with either the distrust of the public opinion on the board or its outright hostility. That, of course, is a 'can't win situation' over which I have no control.
Just because I chose to assert how I may be different with regards to possibly most Dominicans, that in no way takes away how in many ways I
am like most Dominicans. The issue is that there is a reverse form of classism, in which even well-intentioned individuals from the upper middle-classes are rejected by others who can't see how is it that someone can be both well educated and Dominican, or Euro-Dominican, or Buddhist-Dominican.
Using broad-brushes when trying to paint such an important thing as national character or identity inevitably leads to exclusion and rejection. I don't believe that I want or deserve to be excluded from identifying with Dominicanhood, just because others - even if they are the plurality - happen to think that I don't qualify.
cheers,
- Tordok