The price of rice and sugar, documentary.

suarezn

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Feb 3, 2002
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To be honest I don't understand why The Vicinis still continue to use Haitian labor. Is it really that much cheaper to use this labor than to automate most of these processes or are they just the typical greedy wealthy Dominican who'd rather die or go out of business than invest any money on making life better for its employees? It must be if it warrants them putting up with international condemnation. Every other agricultural sector in The DR has automated to a certain extent except for this one. They're the only ones who continue to act like it's the 1800's.

Anybody has any idea what the cost difference would be if any?
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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To be honest I don't understand why The Vicinis still continue to use Haitian labor. Is it really that much cheaper to use this labor than to automate most of these processes or are they just the typical greedy wealthy Dominican who'd rather die or go out of business than invest any money on making life better for its employees? It must be if it warrants them putting up with international condemnation. Every other agricultural sector in The DR has automated to a certain extent except for this one. They're the only ones who continue to act like it's the 1800's.

Anybody has any idea what the cost difference would be if any?

I sure they believe the initial capital investment to go mechanized wouldn't make it worthwhile; with "worthwhile" meaning they probably aren't willing to lessen their lavish and jet setting lifestyles even if they break even in 15 years.

These particular Dominicans certainly deserve to be called racist, among other things.
 

La Rubia

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Jan 1, 2010
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But it gets better . . . . .

As I'd only heard of this here on DR1, did a little search and found the Vicini's have actively sued the producers in the US for defamation as well as threatening to sue anyone trying to show the video. (Some as recent as 2011) Lots of links out there, but here's one from NPR (2007).

And, alas, they did get rid of him.

Family Accuses 'Sugar' Filmmakers of Defamation : NPR
 

GinzaGringo

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Sep 29, 2010
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This is a such fascinating story, thanks for that epilogue contribution, La Rubia.

I would love to hear what Father Hartley has to say about his departure from the DR. I wonder how he feels about his decisions and his actions after all that has transpired. Somehow I doubt that he is at all regretful.

I am also curious to find out how the Vicini defamation lawsuit in the US turned out. Does anyone know?

To me, this case is a crystal clear example as to why the free speech ought to be protected at all cost—you have on one side of a dispute a fabulously wealthy and powerful family with international clout seeking to protect their wealth and on the other, a maverick priest who does not have even the backing of his own church who is protesting poor working conditions for stateless disenfranchised people. The one side can not hope to match the resources of the other.

The right to speak one’s mind must be jealously guarded.

I was a little surprised to learn that my Dominican wife has little to no sympathy for the Haitians. In a conversation with her last night about this story she was all to eager to sympathize with the Vicinis, the Dominican government and that whole half of the dispute. I will work on her some more, to bring her around to the more humanitarian, human rights, peace and justice side of the argument.

I find so much of organized religion to be total nonsense but it is these occasional stories about remarkable religious people acting on principle and principle alone that preserves the little respect I do have for organized religion. It is hard to imagine what other societal institution (besides academia, perhaps) would allow for and foster such behavior.


As I'd only heard of this here on DR1, did a little search and found the Vicini's have actively sued the producers in the US for defamation as well as threatening to sue anyone trying to show the video. (Some as recent as 2011) Lots of links out there, but here's one from NPR (2007).

And, alas, they did get rid of him.

Family Accuses 'Sugar' Filmmakers of Defamation : NPR
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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From what I've read it looks like there may have been some exaggeration in the movie, nonetheless there have been tangible changes to the Vicini's operations.

I read the NPR link among others.
 

La Rubia

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From what I've read it looks like there may have been some exaggeration in the movie, nonetheless there have been tangible changes to the Vicini's operations.

I read the NPR link among others.

Perhaps those tangible changes happened when this came out.

I wondered about keeping them under armed guard and modifying sleeping quarters to prevent escape--it seems a little over the top. I'd say that poverty and ignorance historically have been enough to keep them there. There are a lot of openly armed people in the DR, which may have made the sight of "armed" guards more alarming to the filmakers.
 

bachata

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Aug 18, 2007
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Wonderful documentary. I now understand what is going on a bit more clearly. I was under the impression that the Haitian cane cutters went home in the off season and were free to come and go as they pleased. This is modern day slavery. I dont blame the Dominicans who were paid to protest. Paying for this sort of behavior has a long history in the DR. Thanks for putting this film up.

I am Dominican, born and raised in the Cibao region where the Vicini family does not have any influence in the agricultural activities, yes I did always heard about this powerful family from the East coast of the island but never had the idea of what was going on with this matter.
In the Cibao sugar cane fields things are different, the Haitians are not recruited this way, I can attest this as I worked many years of my life doing of sales person traveling the different towns and I always saw theses undocumented people same like other free people.
The Haitians I know are free to go home and come back to DR whenever they want to...

SHAME ON THE VICINI FAMILY AND DOMINICANS HOW SUPPORT THIS ACTIVITY.

JJ
 

La Rubia

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I've another one coming called 'Sugar Babies', as soon as I can get a good safe copy I'll post it up.

Thanks, a great service. I noticed that Sugar Babies is Canadian made, giving perhaps another outsiders perspective.

I'm wondering about the "censorhip" issues on this one. I checked on Netflix (US) and the film is listed, but not available either as streaming or DVD. Also the film's website has it available to groups like churches, but not for "individuals". So do you know if the legalities of the lawsuit has somewhat hampered this from being distributed?

I'd like to see these put up as a sticky or in one place, so they are easier to find in a few years. With those movie studios being built, we may be entering a "golden age of Dominican film". Ok, obviously need to get back to work because that's not happening!
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Now that most of you are done making comments based on incorrect assumptions and mere feelings, lets take a look into this with concrete information.

1. The sugar industry is well on its way to being 100% mechanized; currently is well over 60% mechanized, so give it a few more years and there will be no Haitians cutting cane on Dominican soil. What will they do for a living can be anyone's guess. Maybe Hartley will pray for them and the an angel would magically fill their bellies.

2. Currently less than 10,000 Haitians actually work in the Dominican sugar industry, that’s less than 1% of the total Haitian population in the DR and makes the sugar industry the least employer of Haitians compared to non-sugar agriculture, construction and tourism. Keep in mind that the sugar industry employs a total of roughly 25,000 people, including technicians, managers, actual Dominicans, etc. The largest employer of Haitians within the sugar industry is CENTRAL ROMANA, headquartered in the USA.

Whomever wants to try to make it seem as if the sugar industry is responsible for the Haitianization of the country, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

3. The largest private employer in the country is NOT Vicini, but rather Central Romana; owned by Cuban-American family (they are American citizens) with permanent residence in South Florida. CR employs around 6,000 people. They are also some of the most powerful people in the USA, which probably explains why no one dares to demonize them.

4. The last zafra produced exports totaling US$126 million (not counting the US$18.8 million that was illegally exported to Haiti). Of that figure, a full 62% was absorbed by CENTRAL ROMANA and only 26.7% by VICINI, the remaining 11.2% by BARAHONA.

5. Total wages in the sector amounted to US$105.3 million.

6. The VICINI have been investing quite heavily in improving the lives of the last generation of Haitians that will ever work manually in their plantations. Schools, community centers, better housing, etc have been built and more are on the way. The same can’t be said of many of the other sugar producers.

Now you can return to debating this issue based on feelings, wild imaginations, much exaggeration from Hartley and plain old ignorance/false assumptions.
 

La Rubia

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SHAME ON THE VICINI FAMILY AND DOMINICANS WHO SUPPORT THIS ACTIVITY.

JJ

I think Dominicans just want to ignore it. A necessary evil that exists, that if we don't talk about it, isn't a problem. It's been going on for years (with changes, yes), and while I know this won't be popular with you, Balaguer was helpful in seeing that it became institutionalized.

As an American, I'm also surprised to learn that if we stopped giving favorable treatment and price on the sugar that it would actually hurt the same people we'd be trying to help. However, Brazil, which also has significant sugar without the same favored treatment, doesn't have the same abuses as in the DR. So it's possible to do.

And yes, the East and Cibao are very different in the treatment of a lot of things, including their animals!
 

kimbjorkland

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Apr 6, 2011
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Promoting lies does not change facts...

Now that most of you are done making comments based on incorrect assumptions and mere feelings, lets take a look into this with concrete information.

I'm happy to discuss the facts as you have presented them. Looking at your numbers and your presentation, it seems that you either:

a) Didn't watch the documentary in full, or didn't understand the points presented; OR

b) For some economic or political reason, you're a Vicini apologist.

Now let's go through the "facts" and spin as you've presented it:

1. The sugar industry is well on its way to being 100% mechanized; currently is well over 60% mechanized, so give it a few more years and there will be no Haitians cutting cane on Dominican soil. What will they do for a living can be anyone's guess. Maybe Hartley will pray for them and the an angel would magically fill their bellies.

REBUTTAL:

1. You are saying, 'machines will replace the work of slaves pretty soon, so the Vicini's are actually being nice to the slaves by keeping them enslaved, how will they eat when the machines arrive?'. Nice try. The Vicini's profit from the slave trade. There is no altruism in slavery. You can't rationalize the facts by saying 'well at least we keep them fed'. They used that argument on the cotton fields in the old south, and it was false altruism.

2. When will the industry mechanize cane cutting 100%? When mechanical operations will be more profitable than human operations. The reason the rest of the world has gone mechanical is because it's cheaper to be mechanical than having to pay a real wage, sick days, with employment laws, health and safety etc. Here, it's cheaper to enslave these stateless people than to have a machine do it, and until the day that it's too much of a hassle, the changeover won't happen.



2. Currently less than 10,000 Haitians actually work in the Dominican sugar industry, that?s less than 1% of the total Haitian population in the DR and makes the sugar industry the least employer of Haitians compared to non-sugar agriculture, construction and tourism. Keep in mind that the sugar industry employs a total of roughly 25,000 people, including technicians, managers, actual Dominicans, etc. The largest employer of Haitians within the sugar industry is CENTRAL ROMANA, headquartered in the USA.

Whomever wants to try to make it seem as if the sugar industry is responsible for the Haitianization of the country, you're wrong. Plain and simple.


REBUTTAL:

You seriously didn't watch the documentary did you?

You can't compare the 10K cane workers who are illegally transported without papers across the border, against the other 1 million who legally work here for the government on construction projects or as watchie men for our apartments. My Haitian watchman has a cedula, he has paperwork, he's here legally.

Moreover, the 'haitianization' argument wasn't presented by the protagonist in the movie, it was presented by the Vicini apologists - claiming that the father was 'haitianinzing' the country with illegal haitians.

So purpose are you serving by mixing up the facts intentionally? mixing the 10K illegals with the 1 million semi legals? What spin are you trying to achieve?



3. The largest private employer in the country is NOT Vicini, but rather Central Romana; owned by Cuban-American family (they are American citizens) with permanent residence in South Florida. CR employs around 6,000 people. They are also some of the most powerful people in the USA, which probably explains why no one dares to demonize them.

So in short, the Vicini family response is: "We didn't start the fire..." or hey go pick on that guy, not on us, we're like #3 here, not #1.

Something tells me if the father's parish landed him in La Romana, he'd be picking on them too, it just wasn't how the cookie crumbled for him.

However, it does beg the question, does the Central Romana company pay border guards and illegally ship Haitians into their compounds and keep them there under lock and key and pay them only in vouchers and make them use the vouchers at the company store where everything is over priced?

If so, then yes they too deserve contempt, but why are you trying to deflect blame from one slave owner to the other? They're all slave owners, deal with it.


4. The last zafra produced exports totaling US$126 million (not counting the US$18.8 million that was illegally exported to Haiti). Of that figure, a full 62% was absorbed by CENTRAL ROMANA and only 26.7% by VICINI, the remaining 11.2% by BARAHONA.

Again, in other words - I'm not the biggest drug dealer in this country, leave me alone, go after the #1 guy! I'm just #3.

This isn't even an argument, it's so childish. I don't blame you though, it's the time tested Dominican argument of 'no mi culpa'. Passing the buck and not taking responsibility. Well I'm cheating a bit but I'm not the biggest cheater, go after him. Yah okay, whatever...


5. Total wages in the sector amounted to US$105.3 million.

Total spin and misrepresentation. What does 'total wages' mean? Are you suggesting 105 million was given to just the 10,000 poor haitians working in the fields? The whole movie was about this fact alone, again I guess you missed it. It was about income distribution. You're just lumping 'total sector income' as an apologist creed, but hello? how did that 105 million get spent? let me help you out:

Bottom: 10K people, $10/month, 10 months a year, 100$ per person per year x 10K people = $1 million.
Top: how much did the ceo's make? the vps? the directors? the slave field managers?
I think the father would be happy if just 3 or 4 of that 105 million went to the slaves. It would improve their lives dramatically.

You're not the first to try to rationalize slavery as being 'economically good' - yes it's clear, imprisoning people and making them work till they die can be quite profitable.


6. The VICINI have been investing quite heavily in improving the lives of the last generation of Haitians that will ever work manually in their plantations. Schools, community centers, better housing, etc have been built and more are on the way. The same can?t be said of many of the other sugar producers.

Lots of hand waving. Facts would be nice. After all, you suggested at the beginning that you would be presenting facts. I ask you, break down the financials. How much profit is generated by the organization? how much of hte operating expenses are attributed to the workers? how much to the so called 'community centers, better housing etc. How many of these came about because of the pressure of the father? and how many because of USAID etc? where is the funding for each coming from?

Given their history, surely you can understand why we would be skeptical that spending $5k to build a church in a batay is nothing more than lipservice from the slave owners to their slaves?


Now you can return to debating this issue based on feelings, wild imaginations, much exaggeration from Hartley and plain old ignorance/false assumptions.

I guess what was good for the goose is good for the gander? Because your presentation of the facts was nothing more than apologist pulp and hand waving and false representations. How you sleep at night is beyond me. Perhaps you work for a Vicini company, or perhaps you're just so fundamentally racist that you think slavery is okay so long as the victims are Haitians. Shrug. Whatever.

Have a nice day.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Kimbjorkland,

When I say that people can return to debating this issue based on feelings, wild imaginations, much exaggeration from Hartley and plain old ignorance/false assumptions; I didn't expect someone would literally do such.

Since you're passionate about this, I think you will find the following document interesting (to say the least):

STATEMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL SUGAR POLICY COORDINATING COMMISSION OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

MAY 20, 2011


Now you can return to an emotionally charged dribble. (kidding)
 

La Rubia

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Jan 1, 2010
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Now that most of you are done making comments based on incorrect assumptions and mere feelings, lets take a look into this with concrete information.

Now you can return to debating this issue based on feelings, wild imaginations, much exaggeration from Hartley and plain old ignorance/false assumptions.

I appreciate facts and figures, especially when their sources are identified. I'll have to do my own research, as you've not identified the source of your concrete information.

By no means do I feel qualified to debate the issue, nor am I so naive as to think that all is as it appears. But I don't think this particular man of the cloth just made this all up. Nor did he set out to document abuses in the whole industry, he just looked around and saw what he saw. Enough there to know something wasn't right.

I'm wondering if the deplorable conditions in the bateys are also wild exaggerations? I've only ever heard of projects in the bateys done by missionaries, so if the companies have centers, schools, etc. it would be nice to see information on that.

If the conditions in the Vicini's places are so great & wonderful, they could have put this all to rest by inviting out some reporters and show them actual conditions.
 

La Rubia

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Jan 1, 2010
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I'll read yours, if you'll read mine

:cheeky:
Kimbjorkland,

Since you're passionate about this, I think you will find the following document interesting (to say the least):

STATEMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL SUGAR POLICY COORDINATING COMMISSION OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

I intend to power skim your link (you'll have to give me credit if you want me to read all 50 pages, maestro), but first thing I noticed is the source. While I don't expect a document prepared by the Dominican government in defense of it's child labor practices to be balanced, fair, or realistic, I'll read it with the intent of becoming better informed.

I also found this interesting. (Not as a reply to your post, simply as wanting to find out about US policy and how it fits in all this.)

American Sugar Policy Leaves a Sour Taste
 

La Rubia

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Jan 1, 2010
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Since you're passionate about this, I think you will find the following document interesting (to say the least):

STATEMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL SUGAR POLICY COORDINATING COMMISSION OF THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

It was very interesting. Thank you for posting it, especially as a primary source document that refers to the film.

My emotionally charged dribble summary:

Dear Gringos, once again you've listened to people you shouldn't and we're here to defend ourselves. Last time we were accused of such things, you believed us, and now we're having to give you the same proof of our innocence. As a reminder, we have fewer sugar producers because of your laws. Because we passed CAFTA and in CAFTA we said we wouldn't mistreat people, we aren't mistreating people. Some Canadians made a film with some lies, then some Americans made a film with more lies, but we are telling you, they lied. We don't lie, and we can get some notarized documents saying we don't lie!

I actually learned from the descriptions of the three companies. Undoubtedly the companies believe the PR piece that they are presenting. The prices of meat, free food, housing, so many favorable conditions, yet no mention of any salary or comparison of salary.

In answer to why they even use cane cutters we learn:

The country's producers have the machinery and equipment to harvest essentially all the cane mechanically, but still employ cane cutters to provide jobs and income to the rural communities.

Now please don't tell me this letter to Santa got the DR off the naughty list?