Things look grim in venezuela

Fred

New member
Feb 20, 2002
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Coop

I was in Venezuela in the 80's when more or less the same thing happened under Carlos Andres Perez(Remember his mistress Cecilia). It is nothing new. Another fanatic after all the countries riches for himself, his family and his croonies.

One thing that you can say about Chavez, is that he knows the Venezuelan people, look how he purposely has the spectre of Simon Bolivar behind him when he makes his speaches. The guy has been dead for over 200 years.
 

CES

New member
Jan 1, 2002
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Kenosha's new government --->

Hey KenoshaChris,

If you're able to pull this thing off are you going too give all of us here on the boards jobs in the new government? ? ?

regards,

Charlie _:)_

==================================================

"Chavez Freed, Returns to Power in Venezuela"

By Andrew Selsky

The Associated Press [*]
Sunday, April 14, 2002

CARACAS, Venezuela - Hugo Chavez was freed by his military captors and returned to reclaim the Venezuelan presidency Sunday, in a dramatic restoration of power two days after he was forced from office by army commanders.

Chavez stepped down from a helicopter, smiled and raised his fist in triumph as he greeted hundreds of cheering supporters outside the Miraflores residential palace. Thousands in the street beyond began singing the Venezuelan national anthem.

His return shortly after 3 a.m. followed the resignation of Pedro Carmona, who stepped down amid violent protests after just one day in office as interim president of Venezuela, the No. 3 supplier of oil to the United States.

The Bush administration, which showed no remorse when the Venezuelan military ousted the country's elected president last week, appealed Sunday for the restoration of "the essential elements" of democracy after Hugo Perez reclaimed his office.

"We are concerned about the situation and are watching carefully as events unfold," State Department spokesman Frederick Jones said. "We continue to call on all elements to avoid violence and seek ways to engage peacefully to resolve this crisis."

Chavez's vice president, Diosdado Cabello, had declared himself acting president until Chavez's return from military custody. He appeared healthy and hugged supporters as a military band played.

Chavez's family, supporters and former government officials insisted he never resigned as president, as Carmona and Venezuela's high command claimed.

~ and ~

The military said Chavez resigned Friday hours after generals arrested him for allegedly ordering gunmen to fire on a massive opposition protest on Thursday. Fourteen died and hundreds were wounded in the melee.

~ and ~

Thousands took to the streets, taking over state TV, to demand that Chavez be reinstalled. Signaling a split in the armed forces, several military commanders refused to accept Carmona's appointment.

~ and ~

Carmona also lost the support of the 1 million -member Venezuelan Workers Confederation, which co -led last week's general strike, after Carmona decide to dissolve Congress, said confederation
director Jesus Urbietta.

? : t r u t h o u t 2002

[read story --->

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.15A.Ousted.Returns.htm

[*] --->

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45721-2002Apr14.html
 

KenoshaChris

New member
Jan 4, 2002
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CES: Jobs? Work?

CES: Jobs? Work? Government? Santo Domingo? What's wrong within the four corners of this picture?
 

CES

New member
Jan 1, 2002
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The picture looks good from here . . .

Hey again,

I know that it might sort of look like a Picaso, nobody has any idea of what the picture represents.

Because all of the folks here in cyber board world are "connected", Kenosha's new government jobs could all be as consultants, we would just 'teleacommute' and each time we visit the DR we could charge it off as a business expense. . .

regards,

Charlie _:)_
 

CES

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Jan 1, 2002
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"'Venezuela to Bush: This ain't Florida, gringo!'"

Here's something to help fan the fires of rumor --->

. . . CES"

==================================================

The fix is out!

The biggest question now facing the
CIA concerning Venezuela is how to
recork champagne.

Message from Venezuela to Bush: This
Ain't Florida, Gringo!

The New York Times sent out two
special e-mail bulletins when Chavez
Frias was temporarily driven from power
but for some reason didn't seem to feel
that the reversal of a US-backed coup,
the day after it took place, was worthy
of special notice.

All the U.S. cable networks and Sunday
morning network news shows fixated on
olin Powell's this morning because
they wouldn't have had time to cover
his meeting with Arafat and reverse all
the lies that they disseminated
concerning Venezuela.

Nationalist procurement deviser
Condasleeza Rice did tell NBC resident
asskiss Tim Russert that Chavez has
"been given another chance to right his
ship." No need to worry there Sleeza, it
is much easier to keep ships on course
when they are divested of mutineers.

It must be very scary for Rice to see
collaborators brought to justice.
In just a sentence Rice told a lie big
enough to spend a lifetime analyzing
and refuting. Her implication was that
Chavez was givebn his chance by the
United States and implied that he was
somehow put on notice by the
scurrilous attempt to subvert
Venezuelan democracy. The truth is that
Rice and Bush and the rest of the slime
that infests the executive branch of the
US government are the ones with a
lesson to learn here. . . .

? 2002 Barry Crimmins

[To read story --->

http://www.barrycrimmins.com/quips.html
 
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john harper

New member
Jan 1, 2002
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My two cents. I really don't know if their was out side influence but i am happy that he is back in power and if the majority of the people want him out WAIT till the next election and vote him out,and sometimes like here in Canada the person you really want out wins again because the MAJORITY wants him back in.......
 

KenoshaChris

New member
Jan 4, 2002
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In Or Out

Be he in office or out of office he's still a murdering son of a bitch. This guy led a coup in 1992 then crys when one is led against him. Somebody needs to tell Hugo that everything that goes around comes around. Now he's going to feel the pulse of the people and listen to them. He should go to the hospitals and feel the pulses of the people he ordered shot. His government paid doctors can't do it since they haven't been paid and are out on strike. Listen to the people more. Yeah, Bill Clinton didn't inhale either. I'll be down there again next month. It should be interesting. On Saturday night I'm going to down a 12 pack until the wee hours of the morning so I'm sure to sleep through that killing bastard's bullshit marathon on Sunday. He sides with Fidel and sympathizes with Sadam. Yeah, just the type of leader we want in this hemisphere. This hit real close to home since I was down there when it heated up. Now, looking at the back page of the front section of the Chicago Tribune there'a a photo of a guy sitting in a chair on a boulevard across the street from the Santo Domingo bar and restaurant. Less than a week ago I was standing in the exact spot where this guy was sitting and also had a couple Cuba Libres at that bar. Scary stuff.
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
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www.dominicancooking.com
Toco madera...

[B]KenoshaChris[/B] said:
Anyway, if anybody wants me to depose Hippo, let me know and I'll make a trip to Santo Domingo.
Your intentions are good KChris and we apprecciate it :), but as much as I dislike Hipo (AND I DO) I am a firm believer that "dura lex, sed lex". We must keep the guy because we elected him. Being a stupid, brainless, empty-headed president is not against the law. When he breaks the law we must use the legal, constitutional instruments to kick him all the way back to Gurabo (although with the current congress the chances are somewhere near zero).

I knew Chavez was begging for a coup, only he was so blind that he didn't see that coming. But I don't agree with the method, although I agree with the reasons. And I think that it was highly hypocritical of the Bush administration to keep their mouth shut and not condemn what clearly was a coup. So, democracy is good if the US likes the guy, bad if they doesn't? If we accept coups as an instrument of the popular wish then why not legalize lynching as a form of popular justice?

"?Qui?n mat? al comendador?
?Fuenteovejuna se?or!"
 
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CES

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Jan 1, 2002
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Venezuela & the US --->

{[ Gregory Wilpert lives in Caracas, is a former US Fulbright scholar in Venezuela, and is currently doing independent research on the sociology of development. He can be reached at: Wilpert@cantv.net ]}

~ Venezuela: Not a Banana-Oil Republic after All ~

Gregory Wilpert
The Counter-Coup [*]
Mon, 15 Apr 2002

It looks like Venezuela is not just another banana-oil republic after all. Many here feared that with the April 11 coup attempt against President Hugo Chavez, Venezuela was being degraded to being just another country that is forced to bend to the powerful will of the United States. The successful counter-coup of April 14, though, which reinstated Chavez, proved that Venezuela is a tougher cookie than the coup planners thought.

~ and ~

The coup leaders against President Chavez made two fundamental miscalculations. First, they started having delusions of grandeur, believing that the support for their coup was so complete that they could simply ignore the other members of their coup coalition and place only their own in the new government. The labor union federation CTV, which saw itself as one of the main actors of the opposition movement to President Chavez, and nearly all moderate opposition parties were excluded from the new "democratic unity" cabinet. The new transition cabinet ended up including only the most conservative elements of Venezuelan society. They then proceeded to dissolve the legislature, the Supreme Court, the attorney general's office, the national electoral commission, and the state governorships, among others. Next, they decreed that the 1999 constitution, which had been written by a constitutional assembly and ratified by vote, following the procedures outlined in the pervious constitution, was to be suspended. Also an intensive witch-hunt began, looking to arrest any members of the Chavez government. The new transition president would thus rule by decree until next year, when new elections would be called. Generally, this type of regime fits the textbook definition of dictatorship.

~ and ~

These media distortions in the aftermath of the coup drove home the point just how powerful the media is at creating an alternate reality. Those Chavez supporters who were at the demonstration and witnessed the events realized more than ever that power needs a medium and that those who control the media have much more power than they let on. This is why the television stations became a key target in the hours leading up to Chavez' reinstatement. The take-over of four of the eight stations was essential to Chavez' comeback because it showed the rest of the military and the rest of Venezuela that Chavez still had strong support among the population and that if the people really wanted to, they could fight for what was right and win. . . .

Gregory Wilpert, Ph.D. Central
University of Venezuela, Caracas New School University, New York

[*] --->

http://www.zmag.org/content/LatinAmerica/wilpertcounter.cfm

==================================================

The CIA And The Venezuela Coup

Hugo Chavez: A Servant Not Knowing His Place

by William Blum
Counterpunch [*]
April 14, 2002

How do we know that the CIA was behind the coup that overthrew Hugo Chavez? Same way we know that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. That's what it's always done and there's no reason to think that tomorrow morning will be any different.

~ and ~

The Washington Post reported from Venezuela on April 13: "Members of the country's diverse opposition had been visiting the U.S. Embassy here in recent weeks, hoping to enlist U.S. help in toppling Chavez. The visitors included active and retired members of the military, media leaders and opposition politicians.

~ and ~

Opposition legislators were also brought to Washington in recent months, including at least one delegation sponsored by the International Republican Institute, an integral part of the National Endowment for Democracy, long used by the CIA for covert operations abroad. . . .

[*] --->

http://www.zmag.org/content/LatinAmerica/blum_coup.cfm

==================================================

CHRONOLOGY OF THE CRISIS: A Critical Week in Venezuela

{click on --->

http://www.zmag.org/content/LatinAmerica/argentina_indymedia.cfm

==================================================

[ For more content --->
Weisbrot: Venezuela & U.S.

Blum: CIA and The Coup

Dieterich: Imperial Coup

Wilpert: The Coup!

Wilpert: Coup in Venezuela?

La Jornada: The Coup

[ Click on --->

http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm

==================================================

There's a ton of stuff out there, just look around a little. It's going to be very interesting (in the next few days & years) to see just how much of this is actually true when it's all said and done.

regards,

. . . CES"
 
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Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
3,668
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www.dominicancooking.com
Re: Werry, werry Interesting! To say the least.! When will we learn?

Quoted from New York Times
Asked whether the administration now recognizes Mr. Ch?vez as Venezuela's legitimate president, one administration official replied, "He was democratically elected," then added, "Legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters..." enfasis added by Pib
Ahem...

Out of words here. :rolleyes:
 

CES

New member
Jan 1, 2002
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Bush Administration caught with pants down . . .

All the news media here (newspaper, public radio, BBC, TV) have a common theme on the Coup, the US was definitely mucking around in the back ground trying push Ch?vez out.

. . . CES"

ps . . . Bush + Cheney = Oil

==================================================

'Losing Latin America'

By Paul Krugman, New York Times

Many people, myself included, would
agree that Hugo Ch?vez is not the
president Venezuela needs. He
happens, however, to be the president
Venezuela elected ? freely, fairly and
constitutionally. That's why all the
democratic nations of the Western
Hemisphere, however much they may
dislike Mr. Ch?vez, denounced last
week's attempted coup against him.

~ and ~

Here's how the BBC put it: "Far from
condemning the ouster of a
democratically elected president, U.S.
officials blamed the crisis on Mr.
Ch?vez himself," and they were
"clearly pleased with the result" ?
even though the new interim
government proceeded to abolish the
legislature, the judiciary and the
Constitution. They were presumably
collapsed. The BBC again: "President
Ch?vez's comeback has . . . left
Washington looking rather stupid."
The national security adviser,
Condoleezza Rice, didn't help that
impression when, incredibly, she
cautioned the restored president to
"respect constitutional processes."

Surely the worst thing about this
episode is the betrayal of our
democratic principles; "of the people,
by the people, for the people" isn't
supposed to be followed by the words
"as long as it suits U.S. interests."

~ and ~

Yet there we were, reminding everyone
of the bad old days when any
would-be right-wing dictator could
count on U.S. backing.

As it happens, we aligned ourselves
with a peculiarly incompetent set of
plotters. Mr. Ch?vez has alienated a
broad spectrum of his people; the
demonstrations that led to his brief
overthrow began with a general strike
by the country's unions. But the
short-lived coup-installed government
included representatives of big
business and the wealthy ? full stop.
No wonder the coup collapsed. . . .

[ The full story from The New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/opinion/16KRUG.html

=================================================

Fingers in the pie:

Bush officials met with Venezuelans
who ousted leader


By Christopher Marquis, New York Times

WASHINGTON ? Senior members of the Bush
administration met several times in recent
months with leaders of a coalition that ousted
the Venezuelan president, Hugo Ch?vez, for two
days last weekend, and agreed with them that he
should be removed from office, administration
officials said today.

~ and ~

But administration officials gave conflicting
accounts of what the United States told those
opponents of Mr. Ch?vez about acceptable ways
of ousting him.

~ and ~

Arturo Valenzuela, the Latin America
national security aide in the Clinton
administration, accused the Bush
administration of running roughshod
over more than a decade of treaties and
agreements for the collective defense of
democracy. Since 1990, the United
States has repeatedly invoked those
agreements at the Organization of
American States to help restore
democratic rule in such countries as
Haiti, Guatemala and Peru.

Mr. Valenzuela, who now heads the
Latin American studies department at
Georgetown University here, warned
that the nations in the region might
view the administration's tepid support
of Venezuelan democracy as a green
light to return to 1960's and 1970's,
when power was transferred from coup
to coup.

"I think it's a very negative
development for the principle of
constitutional government in Latin
America," Mr. Valenzuela said. "I think
it's going to come back and haunt all of
us." . . .

[ The full story from The New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html

==================================================

Venezuelan turnabout leaves U.S. in lurch

State Dept. tries to explain silence on coup

Paul Richter, Los Angeles Times

Washington -- The Bush administration scrambled yesterday to explain why it did not denounce the would-be coup that briefly swept Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez from office last week, an attempt that Latin American leaders decried as an attack on a democratically elected leader.

The White House initially blamed the coup attempt, which unfolded on Friday, on the president's own actions. Only on Sunday,when Chavez was poised to regain his authority, did the United States join other members of the Organization of American States in a vaguely worded resolution that condemned the "alteration of constitutional order in Venezuela."

Chavez has also sought to limit his country's oil production, which could increase prices in the United States. Venezuela is the third-largest supplier of oil to the United States, exporting around 1.5 million barrels a day to U.S. terminals.

[ The full story click on --->

mailto:chronfeedback@sfchronicle.com
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
Here is what my sister-in-law is saying, just yesterday:

Hemos pasado unos dias de terrible angustia. El pais esta deshecho y
dividido en dos bandos. Ha habido muertes innecesarias, saqueos a los
negocios y toda clase de vandalismo y terrorismo. No se como vamos a
reconstruir el pais.


It ain't nice...

HB
 
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eric

New member
Feb 13, 2002
88
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Conspiricy Theory

CES and Mob do a good job of digging up websites.It makes for interesting reading.A free press is important in a democracy,and mistrust of one's government is not a bad thing.Without a doubt the U.S. has had roles in overthrowing many governments.Chavez is not well liked in Washington thats a given.My problem with this conspiracy theory about the oil is this:if we really wanted the oil we would just take the oil.Its that simple.President Bush has one of the highest popularity ratings in history.Pro war sentiment is high in the states.We don't have to play all these little backroom games.Plotting,scheming,etc......whats the point?If the states really wanted this guy out,he would be out!There would be U.S. troops in Venezuela.Americans have had it with opec.Washington would have loved to see Chavez go,but I don't see the need for covert action.Our track record of covert action is mixed at best.Our track record of overtly kicking the shit out of people is much better.In recent history overt action has worked great for us.If you have major problems with the states you know it,you get a 2000lb bomb coming through your window.There is nothing subtle or covert about it.I think America is beyond caring about world opinion.We are having our way and liking it.Conspiricy is hard work and the truth usually comes out anyway.
 

CES

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Jan 1, 2002
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"Face, meet egg:" --->

Face, meet egg:

Despite US denial, fallout is seen from
role in Venezuela

By John Donnelly and Bryan Bender,
Boston Globe [*]

WASHINGTON - Despite Bush administration
denials of involvement in last weekend's coup in
Venezuela, a Massachusetts congressman said
yesterday that the American government's
refusal to condemn the overthrow of President
Hugo Chavez could hurt US efforts to promote
democracy in Latin America.

"I think it damages us badly," said
Representative William D. Delahunt, Democrat of
Quincy, who has traveled frequently to Latin
America over the past three years. "Here we
preach democracy; these are our values. Chavez
is not the issue here. The issue is: Are we
opening ourselves up to criticism that we have
preceived elsewhere in the world of having double
standards and being hypocritical?" . . .

[*] The full story --->

Boston Globe

? 2002

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/1...fallout_is_seen_from_role_in_Venezuela+.shtml

==================================================
'One flew over the coup coup's nest'

By Bridget Gibson,

America Held Hostile [*]

"They hate us for our freedoms" - George W.
Bush, Sept. 20, 2001

It is always a pleasant surprise when the words
that emanate from the politicians corresponds
with their policy, and it should not be such a
surprise when it does not. The latter is the case
at hand. On September 20, 2001, in one of the
most important speeches ever written for him,
George W. Bush clearly stated, for all to hear,
that the cause of the worst act to occur on
American soil in decades lay in hate for
American freedoms. . . .

[*] The full story, click on --->

http://www.americaheldhostile.com

==================================================
U.S., Venezuelans Discussed a Coup Diplomacy:

Bush officials say the topic came up in talks with military and civilianleaders but that the move was discouraged.

By PAUL RICHTER and NICK ANDERSON, Times Staff Writers

WASHINGTON -- Bush administration officials
acknowledged Tuesday that they had discussed the
removal of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez for
months with military and civilian leaders from
Venezuela, but they insisted that they had always
discouraged unconstitutional action to oust him.

~ and ~

U.S. officials met with Pedro Carmona, the business leader who was briefly installed as Chavez's successor, but they provided no details, said White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer.

~ and ~

But Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) said he was unconcerned. He said he did not know whether Venezuelan officials had sought U.S. guidance.

"I don't know how much of that went on, but I don't have a problem if it did," he said.

Lott said Chavez "has not been living up to his promises when he ran for and was elected president. He has been drifting very markedly to the left, talking up regimes like Libya and, of course, giving cut-rate oil prices to Cuba."

~ and ~

U.S. and Venezuelan military officials have had a close relationship over the decades, although that has been interrupted since 1998, when Chavez was elected by a landslide. Chavez has restricted contacts between the two militaries. . . .

Copyright 2002 Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-041702usvenez.story?coll=la-home-todays-times

==================================================
Hi All,

Just after GWB moved into the White House we had a thread over at the other place that had a sort of "What If" scenario. Tom "The Banned", others, and myself were doing some crystal ball gazing and came to the conclusion that if Bush was going to be a two term President then he would have to have a war. The premise being, he would win reelection because the USA would be at war and the electorate wouldn't dare to vote him out. Oh well . . .

Shortly after that debate I noticed a news piece (buried some where) that Dick Cheney and his company Hailiburton had been working on a oil pipeline deal (before the s'election) in the general area of Afghanistan/ Pakistan. Oh well, once again . . .

regards,

CES"

ps . . . "Conyers Demands Enron Special Prosecutor | His Letter to DOJ "

This is very interesting, I've always had a feeling (in the back of my mind) that the day would come for the appointment of a "Special Prosecutor" to look at: Enron + Bush + Dick = Big Oil
 
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CES

New member
Jan 1, 2002
208
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0
Re: Conspiricy Theory (~ Addendum ~)

eric said:
A free press is important in a democracy,and mistrust of one's government is not a bad thing.

....

My problem with this conspiracy theory about the oil is this: if we really wanted the oil we would just take the oil.

....

There would be U.S. troops in Venezuela. Americans have had it with opec. Washington would have loved to see Chavez go, but I don't see the need for covert action. Our track record of covert action is mixed at best. Our track record of overtly kicking the shit out of people is much better.

....

I think America is beyond caring about world opinion. We are having our way and liking it. Conspiricy is hard work and the truth usually comes out anyway.
Hi Eric,

"A free press is important in a democracy, and mistrust of one's government is not a bad thing."

You are a natural for the "other" board, I'm sure we would have many threads of debating, give us a visit some time.

The way that I look at 'Big Oil' is, it's sort of a "Cosa Nostra" (in the US) thing. Back in the day, these guys went around braking legs and torching buildings and when it was all said and done these immigrants (that came to this country (US) with a sausage in a paste board suitcase) became very, very rich.

~ Addendum ~

Now days the educated offspring of the old Mafiosi are making most of their money in legit businesses and don't want the public to know how they got started in the first place.

When grandpa Rocker'feller was making his billions (in today's dollars) as the head of Standard Oil the man was unstoppable, until the real "Rough Rider" (Teddy Roosevelt) said 'enough is enough'. In today's world the Bush family and their favored multinational energy producers are trying very hard to cover their tracks when it comes to how their are increasing market share in the global picture of 'Big Oil'. Looks like 'Teddy' needs to ride again.

~ Addendum ~ ^ ^ ^

The Bush Family has oil in it's veins and the world wide connections to prove it. Back when GWB was still doing the "nose thing" he did some leg work for Poppy, traveled to several countries around the world setting up or promoting energy deals for Enron and others. This isn't conspiracy theory babble, it's a matter of public record. Bush doesn't want American troops to be seen as doing the bidding of 'Big Oil', now on the other hand an unending war on evil, now that's an entirely different proposition. If 'Big Oil' benefits in the mean time so what. . .

regards,

CES
 
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Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
3,668
20
38
www.dominicancooking.com
[B]eric[/B] said:
if we really wanted the oil we would just take the oil.Its that simple.
No, it is not that simple, IMHO. As much power as the US has (which no one argues) I don't think it can just ignore the rest of the world. It wouldn't look good inside the US and to the rest of the world to just go and knock Chavez on the head ? la Noriega. I am not a US citizen and I don't claim to know much about your costitution, but I believe that a declarations of war must be issued by congress (or some such).

What are the odds of Bush Junior convincing the US congress and the US public that Chavez constitutes a "real and present danger" and dah dah? And that the US must risk the lifes of young souldiers and go take him down? Your theory of "we just go and take it" is leaky at best.

But we are forgetting the lessons of years of cold war. Not always the best/less costly/most popular way to get rid of some people is to just go and "napalm" them (remember nam?). Sometimes best results are achieved acting "in the background". Nobody in this board said that Bush sent arms or anything of the sort. But a) the administration failed to comdemn or even adknowledge the coup and b) showed satisfaction, to the point that one might think there was a champagne toast at the oval office. Anyhoo... one wonders.
 

CES

New member
Jan 1, 2002
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Address for . . . --->

eric said:
CES,what is the address for the other board?Thanks Eric.
Hi Eric,

When I go to your profile to send an e-mail this is the message that pops up:

"Sorry! That user has specified that they do not wish to receive emails through this board. If you still wish to send an email to this user, please
contact the administrator and they may be able to help."

So if you would just open my profile you'll see the info. you need. I've been requested not to show the URLs of the other boards in my posts here. . .

regards,

. . . CES"