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- Thread starter Hillbilly
- Start date
Would love to be at the Kerry Kennedy press conference
I betcha having that cedula can mean a lot to someone when the real fear of being deported is just around the corner. It can also mean a few more chelitos in their pockets, but individuals like you prefer the status quo and cheap labor.
Wrong again primo, but spoken as a true liberal pseudo moralist. As a Catholic, I'm all for helping the poor, as it is one of the biggest mandates I will be judged on.
As far as the status quo, if you mean I don't want violence and unrest like in Haiti, yes you are right, we have enough violence here thank you. I can only assume that you live abroad - oh how easy it is to pontificate from an easy chair safe and removed from the DR and what ails it.
No offence to you Chip and I truly hope you dont take my comments as an attack against you, because that is not my intent. I have a lot of respect for you based on yours posts. You seem to be a genuinely nice guy.
I just have a a hard time wrapping my head around what you said above, based on the strong beliefs you have about childrens right to life and how they deserve to be protected in the womb.
I truly respect how you proudly share the fact that you are Christian/Catholic and the way you passionately defend the lives and rights of the unborn child.
You state you are 100% against aborting children and make no apologies for being pro life. I respect how passionately you have debated your, possibly unpopular beliefs, on this board and dont back down.... even though my belief is pro choice.
It just confuses me to no end, when pro lifers scream and fight that abortion should be illegal and every child has a right to live life.... but once that child is born those same pro lifers dont scream and fight for that, childs basic human rights and 'quality of life' (such as a basic education...we all know a child without an education has no future and will most likely continue to live in poverty, generation after generation).
My friend who is very Catholic, anti-abortion, believes abortions should be made illegal in Canada, thinks woman should sacrifice their wants and not be selfish and allow their child to live because it is innocent...
but than will say other peoples kids are their problem and not her responsibilty, especially if they are illegal aliens in Canada..... she is is against spending her tax dollars on programs, subsidies and financial assistance for single moms and their innocent kids. Single moms who have not choosen to abort their child, even though they had the legal right to do so. I tell her she cant have it both ways and Jesus doesnt like hypocrites. LOL
I just dont get that. I agree children are innocent, voiceless, they are a victim of their parents circumstances as they have no control over the mistakes or choices their parents make (i.e. like crossing the boarder illegally), and they need to be protected...not only in the uterus.
Understand, I dont agree that every illegal immigrant should be given citizenship.....BUT I believe every child has a right to a basic education, regardless if that childs parents are illegal or not, rich or poor.
This is my view on this topic.... I think since the Catholic Church has such a strong voice and so much power in the DR, and raise that voice to keep abortion illegal and dont promote birth control, in this poor and over populated country in 2009..... They need to raise that same voice and donate money (or maybe just use the money that the DR govt gives to the Catholic Church...which should not be happening anyway ...INSANE :tired
to ensure ALL children living in the Dominican get a basic education. Put your money where your mouth is!!!!!!!!!!Put up or shut up!
Now that is what I call being Christ like. That is WJWD! This issue of child education in the DR needs to be addressed and aided by the Catholic Church and citizenship rights by the DR govt. Two seperate issues IMO.
But I guess all that stuff in the Bible that Catholics are supposed to live by about....
'what you do to/for the least of those amongst you, you have done unto ME', 'children are the kingdom of heaven', 'love thy neighbour as you love yourself or you dont really LOVE ME and cant enter the kingdom of heaven', 'you must be willing to give up everything, sacrifice, even your LIFE for ME','there is no greater love than a man who lays down his life for a friend' , 'by their fruits you shall know if they are WITH ME' 'you are either with or against ME, you cant be lukewarm' etc....is just all liberal, idealistic, psuedo moralist, mumbo jumbo? LOL
Anyway the Christian/Catholic Church excuse can be.....God I can only assume that you live abroad/in heaven - oh how easy it is to pontificate from an easy chair in the sky, safe and removed from the DR and what ails it.
But I guess God has a good comeback since he did send 'His only begotten Son' to suffer and die for our sins.
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Thandie,
Please explain to me the great benefits that the Dominican government will offer the Haitan citizens that will greatly benefit the children? My understanding is the only thing that would change possibly is access to better education. They will not be receiving any other aid that they already don't receive now, ie the medical care at the public clinics is free to all those who enter.
As far is the education, I'm all for it - if it really doesn't cause more strife for all those involved. Can we be sure their won't be more suffering of Haitian children and Dominican children if Haitians are given legal status here? Don't you think the there will be a significant increase in the migration of Haitans to the DR? It is estimated that already more than 10% of the general population are Haitans. Given the somewhat antagonistic relationship between Haitans and Dominicans doesn't anybody think that their will be an uprising among the significant poorer class here in the DR as they lose more and more jobs to Haitians? Furthermore, why do these American foreigners come here from the States and preach from the moral high ground when they are doing almost the same thing with Mexican situation.
Please take the time to read my post and explain why the Haitan children won't suffer MORE if legal status is given to Haitans? I think a realistic and pragmatic approach would be to have all of these foreign do-gooders build schools here in the DR to educate the Haitan children so when they grow up they don't have to stay in the Dr if they don't want to. Explain to me why they can't do this?
Finally, everybody is forgetting the reality of the situation - what real effect does everybody think all of this international pressure on the Dominican government will have to change their policies? If people don't know any better, Dominicans too watch the news and will find it very hipocritical of Americans to come here and judge the current situation when they have their own similar problems with Mexican immigration.
Please explain to me the great benefits that the Dominican government will offer the Haitan citizens that will greatly benefit the children? My understanding is the only thing that would change possibly is access to better education. They will not be receiving any other aid that they already don't receive now, ie the medical care at the public clinics is free to all those who enter.
As far is the education, I'm all for it - if it really doesn't cause more strife for all those involved. Can we be sure their won't be more suffering of Haitian children and Dominican children if Haitians are given legal status here? Don't you think the there will be a significant increase in the migration of Haitans to the DR? It is estimated that already more than 10% of the general population are Haitans. Given the somewhat antagonistic relationship between Haitans and Dominicans doesn't anybody think that their will be an uprising among the significant poorer class here in the DR as they lose more and more jobs to Haitians? Furthermore, why do these American foreigners come here from the States and preach from the moral high ground when they are doing almost the same thing with Mexican situation.
Please take the time to read my post and explain why the Haitan children won't suffer MORE if legal status is given to Haitans? I think a realistic and pragmatic approach would be to have all of these foreign do-gooders build schools here in the DR to educate the Haitan children so when they grow up they don't have to stay in the Dr if they don't want to. Explain to me why they can't do this?
Finally, everybody is forgetting the reality of the situation - what real effect does everybody think all of this international pressure on the Dominican government will have to change their policies? If people don't know any better, Dominicans too watch the news and will find it very hipocritical of Americans to come here and judge the current situation when they have their own similar problems with Mexican immigration.
Based on the present situation in the DR, I would be very interested how the DR looks like in 20 years.
Whether one likes the idea or not but how can approx. a quarter of a million illegal Haitians be deported from the DR?
I cannot imagine.
That would create an international scandal with impact on tourism.
Legalizing part of them or all will atract even more to come as they have nothing to loose in their home country, this is worldwide the same.
USA with Latinos, Asians
Europe with Africans, Asians
I remember the DR in the late 80's one could see Haitians working in the sugarcane industry only.
Meanwhile, they are working all over the country in all sectors of the agriculture.
With the boom in the construction you see them as well all around in the capital, working in the households and as 'serenos' in all sectors of the city recently.
Knowing that they are hard workers, imagine if they are sent back home, it would have an impact on the hole economy.
I have no solution to the above, I don't think unification is one either, but I'm interested as others see the future of the island?
Thanks'
Whether one likes the idea or not but how can approx. a quarter of a million illegal Haitians be deported from the DR?
I cannot imagine.
That would create an international scandal with impact on tourism.
Legalizing part of them or all will atract even more to come as they have nothing to loose in their home country, this is worldwide the same.
USA with Latinos, Asians
Europe with Africans, Asians
I remember the DR in the late 80's one could see Haitians working in the sugarcane industry only.
Meanwhile, they are working all over the country in all sectors of the agriculture.
With the boom in the construction you see them as well all around in the capital, working in the households and as 'serenos' in all sectors of the city recently.
Knowing that they are hard workers, imagine if they are sent back home, it would have an impact on the hole economy.
I have no solution to the above, I don't think unification is one either, but I'm interested as others see the future of the island?
Thanks'
I have a solution, but they are not going to like it!
1. Build a fence to stop or at least slow down illegal migration.
2. Strict penalties/jail for individuals/companies who violate "Immigration Policies" And I mean STRICT
3. Strengthen and hire more Border Patrol officers and PAY them well.
The last time I checked, the Dominican Republic is a Sovereign country, and being an independent nation, means that they create and enforce laws that benefit Dominican people.
Their problem is that they are too concerned about US opinions on their policies. If that's the case, why don't Leonel crawl over to the USofA and beg Obama to make the DR a colony of the US. We'll take of the Dominican people.
I don't see or hear of any proactive measures to stem illegal migration from Haiti on both sides. Is the situation in Haiti improving with the new president?? I guess it will be a wait & see.
So in other words, nothing will change and the influx of illegal haitians WILL CONTINUE!!
I'm not sure it's realistic to expect the DR to be able to close it's borders effectively, heck even the US hasn't found a way to do that.
Fortunately, we have good news, Haiti's foreign debt has been forgiven, so the best thing for Haitians here in the DR and Haiti is for the Haitians to have relative peace and a positive economic future.
If everybody really wants to help, start investing in Haiti now. To that end, I will be working in Haiti soon so if someone is interested in development, let me know and we'll get you in touch with the people to make it happen.
Fortunately, we have good news, Haiti's foreign debt has been forgiven, so the best thing for Haitians here in the DR and Haiti is for the Haitians to have relative peace and a positive economic future.
If everybody really wants to help, start investing in Haiti now. To that end, I will be working in Haiti soon so if someone is interested in development, let me know and we'll get you in touch with the people to make it happen.
My biggest fear is that in the long run, the attempt to develop the DR will result in its own demise. Everything Dominicans have been fighting for and dreaming about for centuries is simply not achievable.
Maybe it was not meant to be.
There are times when its simply easier to FORGET everything that has to do with the DR, because at least from my part, every time the DR is in my mind, that FEAR is always there and is the main cause of the despair and sadness that accompanies. You can only suppress this by pretending that everything will turn out fine, but its only pretending. On the days when serious thought is given to this, what everybody knows is going to happen causes one to want to give up on the country. There is no point in attempting to prevent the inevitable.
But, I think there is still enough time to cause change and assure that inevitable future that every Dominican knows is coming, even if we pretend that its not just so we can make it through some days without feeling that FEAR; is derailed.
This feeling is something that few, if any, foreigner can ever feel towards the DR. You have to be Dominican to understand this.
-NALs
Apparently the foreign debt of Haiti has not been forgivev - nice one mountainannie, I'm so damn naive.
We can discuss the issue on hand rationally, but dude no need for labeling or name calling. I have never done it on this forum to you or anyone else and expect the same. I think it's time for you to get off the pope's chair and come down to earth. Your constant babble about being a Catholic is sounding more and more pathetic and tiresome. I have always found that that people that wear their belief or faith on their sleeves are fakes. The true one's don't need to say it, they just do it, and you my friend are lacking in many ways.
Excuse to all for getting off topic but this fella is getting a bit personal here.
Thanks primo, I have room for a lot of improvement that is for sure. But when it comes to abortion, I could be a mujerjiego, ladron, chismoso and in general equivocado en muchas cosas but it will never killing innocent people right.
This is unbelievable. Suddenly a few people who usually remain quiet in situations like this, take a more pro-Dominican stance; given their understanding of the impact (positive and negative) the Kennedy objective and visit on its own, can and most likely will have on Dominicans.
They express their views and its not long before the usual vultures of DR1 that have issues with anyone expressing a remotely pro-Dominican stance on any issue, come out to devour and minimize the pro-Dominican comments and commentators.
Even Chip is being demonized.
I guess people can't say anything remotely pro-Dominican in these forums, even if they also sympathize with the Haitians.
Unbelievable.
-NALs
They express their views and its not long before the usual vultures of DR1 that have issues with anyone expressing a remotely pro-Dominican stance on any issue, come out to devour and minimize the pro-Dominican comments and commentators.
Even Chip is being demonized.
I guess people can't say anything remotely pro-Dominican in these forums, even if they also sympathize with the Haitians.
Unbelievable.
-NALs
Seems name calling is rather fashionable these days, but coming from a moderator who should know better than that I'm rather :disappoin
We can agree to disagree or agree to a agree or whatever permutation comes out, but please leave the name calling or labeling to children.
I was not referring to the issue of abortion at all, but about you calling me some fake (pseudo)moralist. Now that irked me because what is so pseudo about wanting someone to be granted a cedula. Imho that card does open the doors to certain benefits and opportunities regardless of how humble.
Getting back to the topic before this is closed, I am very glad to see functionaries of the government sit down with Kennedy and allowed her to speak in a civilized manner. They may not agree with her but have more courtesy than some in this forum. By and large the media has been most accommidating too.
That's the way to treat her. Listen to her, nod sympathetically, give her a nice meal, drive her to the airport and give her a thoughtful parting gift (perhaps a duty free gallon of Chivas Regal for her Uncle Ted).
No offense primo, but I found your accusation of me wanting to keep the Haitain people down as quite offensive:
Just to reiterate my stance - my only concern about the Haitians having legal status here is stability, pure and simple. An unstable DR does nobody any good, including the Haitians.
Ok we can discuss this point. Don't you consider as it is right now the Haitian immigration situation as very unstable? The best thing for this country is to try and fix the immigration policies which are a mess when it comes to the neighbor next door. Mass deportations, while temping to some, is unworkable and a logistical nightmare. Besides, the labor of Haitians in the Dominican economy is indispensable. Has been for many decades.
The status quo on this issue has been unworkable and wishful thinking does not solve anything. You want a stable DR then a sensible and just Haitian immigration policy is the only way out. I am not calling for giving legal status for every Haitian in the streets, but for those who can prove they have been here for a many years, then they should be entitled to receive legal status. Another idea is to those who have been coming here for many years as seasonal workers can after a certain period of time apply for legal status if they wish to.
Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but a legal Haitian will bring stability to the DR rather than the way it is now.
Pragmatically speaking, it follows reason that if residency is facilitated for Haitians here in the DR they will come a running. Now instead of 10 to 25% of the general population being Haitian we'll have 35% to 40%. I don't think many Dominicans who will lose their jobs and have even less access to services will take this lying down - this will cause instability for sure. Maybe when the DR can control it's borders, but when will this ever happen?