What I have there is a book, not just the cover.....if I can recommend you one, read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, once an atheist, then agnostic and ultimately Christian.
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Marco Rubio the creationist
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We are both saying that part of the process of human civilisation involves having defined certain standards of behaviour.
Where we differ is in that you think those rules were ordained by a higher power. I see them as a practical response developed by humans themselves to increasingly complex social living patterns - qualities like loyalty and bravery (to protect your family/tribe/city state/nation), honesty, property rights, contracts (to prevent conflicts between neighbours) are all practical ways of ensuring that people co-exist peacefully.
Religion with its punishments and rewards is a human-made tool for enforcing these rules (as well as a way of explaining the mysteries of nature and existence).
Throughout history there have been shifts in what is considered moral or acceptable - such as slavery, racial supremacy, women's status.
In the same way, some things that are acceptable now would have been inconceivable a few centuries ago - e.g. women priests and rabbis.
Some things that are shocking to us here and now are still acceptable a few thousand kilometres away - stoning for adultery, polygamy.
Religions have always changed to suit the needs of the powerful - as happened during the Reformation, or when science or the prevailing morality renders certain details embarrassingly obsolete.
So what is it you're trying to say, and what point is it supposed to prove?
Could you say the same about logic, or is logic finite and created by man? All this talk about vampires....we're talking about atheism, not vampires. You haven't proved much so far.
What point did he make? How has he proved he is an atheist? Because he doesn't believe in vampires?
What are the rules of logic? The concept was defined by human philosophers including the Greeks.
We can agree with that. Humans defined the "concept". Got it. But you can't touch logic, or see it. But you and other atheists do believe in logic and logical thinking, yes? I think even non-atheists can agree that logic exists. But you can't see it. It's there though. Yes? Did logic exist before humans defined the concept?
Because I live my life using logic and reason not "beliefs" spawned by men to explain things for which they lacked knowledge.
No, I have never stubbed my toe using logic, figuratively or otherwise.
Another poster, I think it was pollogringo, made an excellent response to a similar argument recently. There are many abstract concepts that I know exist but cannot see, touch or define - like love, happiness, luck, desire, enjoyment... I can also distinguish them from fictional characters or figments of my imagination.
Correct me if I'm wrong but every POTUS has professed to be a Christian. Now most of them have not shown to be very good Christians by the defiition of living by the rules of Christianity and the Jesus loves you thing. If Marco Rubio professes to be a Christian, which he does, is he being any different than the current POTUS or the previous five or six? Why should he be held to a different standard than a Democrat president?
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Another poster, I think it was pollogringo, made an excellent response to a similar argument recently. There are many abstract concepts that I know exist but cannot see, touch or define - like love, happiness, luck, desire, enjoyment... I can also distinguish them from fictional characters or figments of my imagination.
You must admit that the rules we live by, human rules, are not necessarily based on logic, but rather conventions, or agreements, as you have stated earlier....what is good in one country isn't in another, driving on the left or right side of the road, etc.....
Windeguy....the logic of driving is not logic at all...it is a set of rules made by convention, and is different from country to country.
Yet both of you may cling to logic as a human concept. Logic isn't based upon what we can see. Logic isn't based upon rules created by humans. It is simply based upon truths, yes? There are many truths that have existed long before humans, and not on this planet....the "concept" of logic applies universally. Do we agree?
Is love, happiness, luck, desire and enjoyment universally logical?
There are claims that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian, but was more of a Deist. His views on Christianity would prevent him from getting elected today. Same goes for Lincoln.
I feel sorry for people that have been misled, such as yourself. A closed minded viewpoint that is impossible to overcome because it has been sealed by faith. Your god need only prove himself to me and I will go along. He won't ever because he does not exist. Scientific theories are based upon evidence. Scientific theories do not explain everything, but they are logical conclusions from observed phenomena. As science progresses, it revises and often discards theories on the basis of new information, often filling in the gaps. From the big bang, to Darwin, to multiverse theory, etc. We will never no everything, but I will never interject a god to explain what is not known.
Good and bad require no creator. Once again you are using a god of the gaps to insist that without a god or gods (why is one god better than many- your one god must by lonely just watching us from afar? Oh that's right, you have an afterlife to keep you under control). When people live together they will create rules of behaviour both written and unwritten. You can call these rules of behaviour morality, laws, normal behaviour, etc. Different societies have created their own rule of law throughout the ages.
People learn that if they violate those rules they will pay the consequences. Even other primates and dolphins do this. Insisting that some mystical being has to provide those rules because society cannot do it shows how misguided religious people are that their god had to show them the way.
What plain and clear thinking person derives a god (or gods) from no evidence of god at all?
Really? So, with over 90% of Americans having a belief and an affiliation with religion, you think Obama could just come out of the closet an declare himself an Atheist and get re-elected?
What the he?? are you smoking?
Frank
You are the first believer that I have heard of that would ask an atheist to prove he is one. What would it take to prove it?
No, they can vary between individuals!Big Dan said:
Truths, logic, laws of nature, facts - for sure they were all there before humans happened to evolve into beings smart enough to identify, name, categorise and define them. The Universe is billions of years old, which takes us neatly back to the OP.
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