The Haitian Occupation of the Dominican Republic

[delite]

You know NALS WHO LIVES IN CONNECTICUT

sometimes... just sometimes

I get really ****ed off

were it not really for Naked Snake who is, so far, the ONE DOMINICAN that has been consistently posting with an aim to enlighten I would perhaps blow a gasket.

Of course I am pro Haitian. given. Do you think I have to chose? Really? Your trade with Haiti is now 110% of Haiti's trade with the US. It is the only country with whom you have a positive balance of trade. You have a constant flow of illegals and stateless births. I think that you have some problems. I try to help. As far as I can see. You and Picardo.. DO NOT. You BOTH live in the UNITED STATES. And just take pot shots at ME. Who lives HERE. And tries to make peace and say good things about BOTH countries.

Why do you not just go out to one of the lovely US parks that my tax dollars, and those of my ancestors, who have fought if EVERY conflict since the MAYFLOWERl, have provided and still do for you to enjoy,

and GET OFF MY CASE?

MA,

The short time I've been on this forum, I've realized that you're a very tolerant person trying your best to work with the underprivileged or castaways of society. I, on the other hand, am the total opposite.

We have been having a civilized conversation; yourself, NS, K-Mel and Quisqueya. During the exchanges, I've learned a few things and I am certain that NS as well. For some reason, there a few posters hell bent on hijacking this thread and the other because they're always off on a tangent.

Heck I don't hold my tongue...NAS and sometimes Gurabo444 really don't have anything of substance to add to the thread but the tired "pro-Haitian or pro- Dominican" stance. He's been trying to bait me into a discussion but I refused to engage him. NAS is akin to a crybaby. Constantly bytching about foreigners this or that. No one is trying to change history, language or religion. Nakedsnake, a Dominican, can attest to this.

Anyone following this thread would formulate the same conclusion. They're are attention seekers and they would serve a better purpose to pose in front of their boyfriends. Don't let them see you sweat! Stay focused and continue to make your contribution.

 

[NALs]

So people in this forum can have a better idea of how a topic such as the Haitian Occupation is seen by most Dominicans and is affected, here's the results of a recent survey.

To get a better view of each image, right click and click on "open in new tab."

Translation: Do you think the government should expel the Haitians that migrated illegally to the Dominican Republic?

S? = Yes

Todos = all, H = men, M = women

Political parties, PLD is currently in power.

PRD is the most leftist one, but it’s really center-left like the PLD, simply a little further to the left than the PLD; the PRD also has a Haitian descendant as a major political figure.

PRSC is the most conservative of the three and traditionally the most opposed to illegal Haitian immigration. Ind = independents or people not affiliated/identified with one of the major political parties.

Survey done by the international firm Penn, Schoen & Berland for Noticias SIN. This is a few months old.

D. Bernardo Vega, one of the most respected economist and historian of the country, said that he wasn’t surprised by the results. He has been following this trend for decades now, and he has witnessed how, with the increasing visibility of the illegal Haitian immigrants, average Dominicans in all social levels are generally becoming much more anti-Haitian.

It doesn't takes much to get an idea where things are headed if the illegal immigration problem isn't dealt with effectively.

 

[Chip]

Many foreigners don't care about Haitian illegal immigrants but rather promote the typical political correct solution that the DR must accept more and more illegal Haitians because they believe they are fighting racism, and besides it's always a lot better to complain than to actually do something positive.

Ironically would never accept such unbridled immigration in their own country.

However, Dominicans realize allowing more and more Haitians threatens Dominican culture, because many aspects of the Haitian culture is in many ways incompatible.

The right thing to do for all involved is have a limit to illegal immigration that the country can absorb without suffering dire consequences that all pay for. We are getting past that point unfortunately. Worse still is the international community could care less. Such is political correctness at it's best, mostly hot air.

 

[mountainannie]

The question is HOW is the DR going to deport the illegals? I have never even seen them checking papers of Haitians who are on the street selling, Wouldn't that be a good start?

I know that construction companies will say that they are within the 20% foreigners rule. that only 20% of the employees can be foreigners.. but could this not also start?

I know that this is starting at the bottom, not the top.. because really there must be some sort of law, is there? about hiring illegals? is there a fine? I mean everyone is doing it. including the goverment.

There are deportations all the time. But they do not work very well as folks are just driven across the border and then cross back over.

It would be great to see some sort of "stoppage" at the top.. with the government and the big companies stopping the use of illegals. That would be a first step. Then to stop the ambulantes and the construction workers...

 

[mountainannie]

One thing that I think that has not been clearly said here is that most of the Dominican population was free at the time of the invasions, especially the one in 1805. Most of the mulattoes were free, most of the blacks were free, and most of the whites were not only free, but didn?t own slaves. As descendants of Canary Islanders, most of whom arrived in the late 1600s and through out the 1700s, these families remained essentially rural and lived from the land. They were too poor to have slaves at all and the slaves were too few in relation to the total population. Plus, most of the minority that was enslaved were found in the cattle ranches (these hardly lived as slaves either due to the great liberty they were conceded given the nature of their work, many were essentially subsistence farmers that also took care of the cattle and other livestock in nearby ranches) and in the handful of sugar estates (nothing like the sugar plantations of today) in the vicinity of Santo Domingo and San Crist?bal (these were not treated in the same manner as the slaves in the ranches, again due to the nature of the work.)

This is why the Haitians were perplexed when the mulatto and black Dominicans began to aid the white Dominicans when they started to impose their atrocities towards them. Most of the mulatto and black Dominicans had been living as free people for centuries and the mulatto group had actually grown quite rapidly due to free consensual unions between poor whites and poor non-whites, who were the vast majority of the population. The indignation that many of the Dominican mulattoes and blacks felt and their decision to side with the white Dominicans and oust the Haitians, simply left many Haitians confused. Often times they were attacking friends, acquaintances, and in many instances even blood related family members.


----

maybe we can get some published stats on this?

the only ones that I have are from the CR James book.The Black Jacobins, which is clearly a "Haitian" source..

which states that in 1794 on the Spanish side of the island there were 35,000 whiles, 38,000 freedmen, and 30,000 slaves.

---
when the French came into power under the Treaty of Basel in 1801, Spanish settlers were given one year in which to leave but were not allowed to take their slaves with with, 2000 left *i will have to search for the source of that.

So, it would be good to see some printed sources about how the blacks on this side had been living free for centuries.

 

[Chip]

maybe we can get some published stats on this?

the only ones that I have are from the CR James book.The Black Jacobins, which is clearly a "Haitian" source..

which states that in 1794 on the Spanish side of the island there were 35,000 whiles, 38,000 freedmen, and 30,000 slaves.

---
when the French came into power under the Treaty of Basel in 1801, Spanish settlers were given one year in which to leave but were not allowed to take their slaves with with, 2000 left *i will have to search for the source of that.

So, it would be good to see some printed sources about how the blacks on this side had been living free for centuries.

Many people have posted sources, how convenient you never see them.

 

[mountainannie]

Many people have posted sources, how convenient you never see them.

Well, Chip, I have just gone back to the beginning of this thread on the Haitian occupation and have not seen any sources posted. Surely there must be some local writings about the period?

I know that slavery here on the Spanish side was nothing like the cruelty on the French side. And that slaves could purchase their freedom. So I can easily credit what Nals is saying as the truth. And perhaps there is no written history but Domnicans are well educated and I find it hard to believe that there is nothing written from that period.

Or were just taking the opportunity to make a snide remark at me, in the interests of friendship and harmony?

 

[Chip]

Well, Chip, I have just gone back to the beginning of this thread on the Haitian occupation and have not seen any sources posted. Surely there must be some local writings about the period?

I know that slavery here on the Spanish side was nothing like the cruelty on the French side. And that slaves could purchase their freedom. So I can easily credit what Nals is saying as the truth. And perhaps there is no written history but Domnicans are well educated and I find it hard to believe that there is nothing written from that period.

Or were just taking the opportunity to make a snide remark at me, in the interests of friendship and harmony?

How many times has this topic been discussed MA over the last few years???

 

[mountainannie]

How many times has this topic been discussed MA over the last few years???

where has this topic been discussed Chip, except to say that Haiti occupied the Dominican Republic?

Are you simply trying to STOP the discussion? This is the Haiti forum. There is really nothing in the Haitian history that is written about the Haitian occuption of this side of the island. I, for one, am learning about it. Contrary to what some may think, I am not some sort of paid outside agitator who is trying to spearhead another Haitian invasion. I am trying to understand the roots of the issue.

As many have pointed out, we all come to any discussion wearing cultural glasses. I cross post on Haitan forums. I am a strong defender of the DR. I am trying to understand what is going on here to try to help contribute something toward a peaceful solution to what I see as a couple of very serious growing problems here.... uncontrolled illegal migration, stateless persons, trade, and a growing animosity on both sides of the border.

Now you, and others, may take that as pro Haitian. Just as many Haitians take my positions as pro Dominican.

And you, and others, may continue to attack me and post irrelevancies or other things and get this thread shut down by the moderator.

And then I will lose an opportunity to learn. And then to inform.

 

[Chip]

where has this topic been discussed Chip, except to say that Haiti occupied the Dominican Republic?

Are you simply trying to STOP the discussion? This is the Haiti forum. There is really nothing in the Haitian history that is written about the Haitian occuption of this side of the island. I, for one, am learning about it. Contrary to what some may think, I am not some sort of paid outside agitator who is trying to spearhead another Haitian invasion. I am trying to understand the roots of the issue.

As many have pointed out, we all come to any discussion wearing cultural glasses. I cross post on Haitan forums. I am a strong defender of the DR. I am trying to understand what is going on here to try to help contribute something toward a peaceful solution to what I see as a couple of very serious growing problems here.... uncontrolled illegal migration, stateless persons, trade, and a growing animosity on both sides of the border.

Now you, and others, may take that as pro Haitian. Just as many Haitians take my positions as pro Dominican.

And you, and others, may continue to attack me and post irrelevancies or other things and get this thread shut down by the moderator.

And then I will lose an opportunity to learn. And then to inform.

This info was posted in the other thread that you started:

Regarding the "supposed" minority of whites in that period, according to Jose Alvarez de Peralta at he time of the Treaty of Basel the racial proportions are as follows:

blancos (white)........................................... ..................100,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Blanca........................................100, 000
Mulatos........................................... ..............................70,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Negro..........................................60, 000
Negros............................................ ..............................70, 000

Emilio Rodriguez Demorizi "Relaciones geogr?ficas de Santo Domingo" Vol 1, P.162.


http://www.dr1.com/forums/haiti/136546-antihatianismo-7.html#post1296573

Regarding your supposed neutral stance, I think it goes without saying that your conspiracy theory that the "elite whites" here are trying to force the "blacks" off the island or something along those lines tells us a lot.

 

[Castle]

Regarding your supposed neutral stance, I think it goes without saying that your conspiracy theory that the "elite whites" here are trying to force the "blacks" off the island or something along those lines tells us a lot.

I don't get this last paragraph, Chip. Are you disputing the fact that whites are the elite class in DR? You don't agree they are a minority? You think they are not trying to defend the little "whiteness" DR has?. If the answer to any of those questions in affirmative, I'll have to think it is because you live in El Cibao, where the proportions are quite different.

 

[greydread]

where has this topic been discussed Chip, except to say that Haiti occupied the Dominican Republic?

Are you simply trying to STOP the discussion? This is the Haiti forum. There is really nothing in the Haitian history that is written about the Haitian occuption of this side of the island. I, for one, am learning about it. Contrary to what some may think, I am not some sort of paid outside agitator who is trying to spearhead another Haitian invasion. I am trying to understand the roots of the issue.

As many have pointed out, we all come to any discussion wearing cultural glasses. I cross post on Haitan forums. I am a strong defender of the DR. I am trying to understand what is going on here to try to help contribute something toward a peaceful solution to what I see as a couple of very serious growing problems here.... uncontrolled illegal migration, stateless persons, trade, and a growing animosity on both sides of the border.

Now you, and others, may take that as pro Haitian. Just as many Haitians take my positions as pro Dominican.

And you, and others, may continue to attack me and post irrelevancies or other things and get this thread shut down by the moderator.

And then I will lose an opportunity to learn. And then to inform.

We all will.

Please "ignore" and proceed. I've seen more detailed information on the interrelationship between Hispaniola's two developing nations in the past few days on DR1 than I've ever seen in any single library.

Thank you

 

[Chip]

I don't get this last paragraph, Chip. Are you disputing the fact that whites are the elite class in DR? You don't agree they are a minority? You think they are not trying to defend the little "whiteness" DR has?. If the answer to any of those questions in affirmative, I'll have to think it is because you live in El Cibao, where the proportions are quite different.

MA has a theory that the "elite whites" are trying to deport all the blacks including Dominicans in the coastal areas, or something along those lines.

I don't dispute that there is racism among some "whites" here. Nonetheless, what percentage of the population would that be?

 

[Castle]

MA has a theory that the "elite whites" are trying to deport all the blacks including Dominicans in the coastal areas, or something along those lines.

I don't dispute that there is racism among some "whites" here. Nonetheless, what percentage of the population would that be?

Ok. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I don't agree with that theory of MA as you put it. But this is Haiti forum, so I guess we should keep the post Haiti related.

 

[Lando calrisian]

One anecdote that I remember from school is that Toussaint arrived with his army to inspect Spanish, Sainte Domingue. After it was ceded to FRANCE, NOT to HAITI....The force Toussaint led, was not only composed of newly empancipated blacks, it also had many white French officers.

They were not impressed with the city of Santo Domingo. It's inhabitants and people did not dress as snappy as the wealthy cosmpolitan citizens of Port au Prince.

The church and cathedral not as beautiful or ornate as what he knew in Sainte Domingue.

Port au Prince had the latest fashions and the blacks there looked different than the blacks he encountered here on the Spanish side.
After dealing with the Spanish officials, he decided to take a walk and briefly inspect the city, he had to return back to French Sainte Domingue.

He began the walk and with his staff he would tap the people he wished to speak to.

The Spaniards that would be blessed with this tap would melt and answer to any question he had for them.

Then this nominal representative of the French happened to 'tap" a lady whom crossed his path.

The lady offended, angrily responded to Le General Toussaint L'Ouvertoure, that he was very rude and that that was no way for a gentleman to attempt to address a lady.

Dessalines tried to apprehend her, but Toussaint, stopping his enraged subaltern smiled and bowed apologizing, he stated that it was true, a gentleman should not behave that way towards a lady. Also noting that she was the only one who spoke to him without fear.

I guess he found that refreshing.

So soon afterwards Toussaint Breda and most of his men, departed back to French Haiti. With Toussaint remarking how poor the Spanish side was and how he could not wait to make it a productive part of France.

The End.

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[Lando calrisian]

SOME whites are the Elite class here and so are SOME blacks. MA wants statistics about how Black and white Dominicans associated? Come on lady, you been here for 10 long years. Doing God knows what aiding and abetting the Haitian invasion of DR. If after 10 years you still claim to be IGNORANT with the WEALTH of info that is out there than lady you got a problem.
My grandma is of Galician background northern spain, her family comes from Constanza and her 3rd husband not my grandad was a big black dude from San Cristobal. Dude was black. She loved him. boom Elizabeth, that's your statistic right there.
My best friend Pete, he's white and his wife is mulatta. Boom, another statistic keep addiding 'em up.

I've never met an illegal Dominican. All the Dominicans I KNOW are legal arrivals. In Puerto Rico the story might be different.
But if you gotta deport them. DO IT!!
Dominican's are being deported RIGHT NOW and I don't see Annie at the airport protesting their "HUMAN RIGHTS",
Many don't even know DR, ALL THEY HAVE EVER KNOWN IS USA?

Bit of hypocrisy from the freedom fighter?

Anyway, the occupation of DR, like the USA occupation of Iraq was a heinous act. It was done by a superior force against a weaker neighbor, that isn't right. It's called being a bully.
So are you asking about the past Haitian occupation or the current ongoing one?

 

[Castle]

My upstairs neighbors are an haitian family. They arrived in DR shortly after the 2010 earthquake. They are obviously not your typical haitian immigrant as they obviously arrived legally to DR. But they're not legal anymore. The oldest son, an athletic guy is already dating a not very gracious dominican girl. I guess he's trying to get his residence, as I saw his previous haitian girlfriend who came to visit from time to time, and she was in a different league. The older daughter seems to be following the same path.

Arrived legally, overstayed their visa or just married someone before visa expired. Sounds familiar? Do you still think of that boy or girl as legal immigrants? yeah, I thought so...
Running over a dog on the highway is not legal, but it's still very wrong and despitcable You can take advantage of as many loopholes in the laws as you like, but we all know what the main point is here when we refer to illegal immigrants.

And I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I just like to call things by their real names.

 

[mountainannie]

I have been trying to square up these figures which were posted with the others that I have seen which have the population on the Spanish side at about one third

Regarding the "supposed" minority of whites in that period, according to Jose Alvarez de Peralta at he time of the Treaty of Basel the racial proportions are as follows:

blancos (white)........................................... ..................100,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Blanca........................................100, 000
Mulatos........................................... ..............................70,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Negro..........................................60, 000
Negros............................................ ..............................70, 000

Emilio Rodriguez Demorizi "Relaciones geogr?ficas de Santo Domingo" Vol 1, P.162.


came across this piece.. which is a doctoral thesis http://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-03272011-220809/unrestricted/DePena.pdf

have only finished the second chapter.. but here is the quote which is footnoted to Balaguar

4 The invasions from
the west, the military menace of France, and the failures of Spanish colonial administration left Santo Domingo with a population count of only 63,000; a fifty percent
loss from the 125, 000 residents it contained in 1797.25

so the figures that were posted on the forum are not supported by official stats.

And there is more in the thesis to support the idea that Boyer was "invited" to wit

that Monte Christi, Dajabon, had already signed petitions in favor of Haiti before de Carceres declared unon with Gran Columbia.

Within days, the municipalities of Saint-Yague (Santiago), Puerto Plata, La
Vega, San Juan, Neyba, Azua, Cotu? and San Francisco de Macor?s54 replicated the
annexationist pronouncement from Monte Cristo and Dajab?n in favor of Boyer.

 

[mountainannie]

thesis states that the Haitian market represented 660,000 people when united, as they were then at the time of Boyer in 1820.

 

[mountainannie]

I know that most Dominicans are not going to get through that thesis since it flies in the face of what you have been taught.
Trust me that I did not search it out.. just happened to be the only piece that came up on google scholar

"Annexation, fusion and union
are better terms for what occurred in 1822 because mutual agreement was evident
between two majority parties. In accordance with Juan Bosch, the improper use of labels
is the result of Dominican scholar subjugation to ?a climate of passion that has prevailed
in every referent? to this period.74 Contemporary volatile feelings with regards to Haiti
have being blended with the antecedent attitudes of 1822 producing an accentuated
distortion of the scenario being studied. Therefore, term ?occupation? is the result of
biased historians who refuse to believe that Santo Domingo would enter into union with a
nation-state they considered as inefficient and too alien to themselves.