OK Slap Me into Reality

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chuckuindy

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Mar 8, 2004
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Good luck

jadedamerican said:
I agree with whomever said to ignore advice from others, because the trouble with advice from others is that they are only speaking from their negative experiences or their close-minded prejudices.

I said that and I can speak from expeience. It is all in your hands and your hands only. Good luck.
Charlie
 

Jon S.

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Jan 25, 2003
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AZB is on the money, others will never understand DR people....

That sounds disrespectful when a person (other posters) assume that there are ulterior motives behind every Dominican's decision to come to the US. She's educated but unfortunately lives in a 3rd-world country in which people in her career of choice (Accounting) are a dime a dozen, specially since it's one of the top 5 career choices for Dominicans seeking a higher education, so it's not easy to get a job in that field and due to the current economic situation won't even earn her a look from other countries unless she gets help from her relatives.

Of course it would be foolish to dive headfirst into a relationship like this even though you don't know each other that well but give it a shot, do some more research like travel to the DR when you get a chance and check out the rest of the family. Good luck.
 

Nelly

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Jan 1, 2002
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so true...

jadedamerican said:
I do wonder however if the responses would have been as positive if you where a women speaking about a man, in this exact situation? HMMMM...I think not, the old boys club is always evident.

You got that right, Jaded!
 

bankbwoy

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Mar 12, 2004
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go for it but be careful

I would say to follow your instincts and not your heart just yet. You might have a keeper but be careful....investigate.
 
Oct 13, 2003
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Looks like a winner!

This looks like a winner but thread carefully...

Try to get to know her completely as a person but also about the circumstances that led to you 2 meeting up.. and about the situation in NY with her dad.. he has a wife and 3 children here and she lives with whom in the DR?

Don't believe all the bad stories.. from your information I have not yet seen any negative signs or red flags!

Of course one of the benefits of being with a foreigner will be a better life but that doesn't preclude love!

Go for it
 

SalsaBlondie

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Aug 28, 2003
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truer words have never been spoken

yes... i only get negative words about me and my dominicano.
not to mention, they arent asking them what he is doing for sex while she is gone.
that's what we get as women on here. (my guy also answers the cell phone at all times or calls right back in 5 minutes).
frankly, the guys on here have me quite frustrated. but im trying to take it with good humor. after all they dont ask ME what *I* am doing for sex while he is not here? ha, ha. :ermm:

Nelly said:
You got that right, Jaded!
 

SalsaBlondie

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wishing you luck.

best of luck to you. she sounds nice.
god bless.
salsablondie

WBALKE said:
Let me 1st say that I am a Single 35 year old, college educated man from the US.
 

Esteelove

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Just be careful

Keep in mind that they're smarter than you think and that they are excellent at 'putting on a good act'. Once they got their foot in the door, that's all they need. It's nice that you have nice feelings for her, but just be careful and good luck to you! :rolleyes:
 
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Esteelove said:
Keep in mind that they're smarter than you think and that they are excellent at 'putting on a good act'. Once they got their foot in the door, that's all they need. It's nice that you have nice feelings for her, but just be careful and good luck to you! :rolleyes:

I respectfully do not agree with you on this case. From the information posted she seems a genuine normal upper-middle class girl. We have no information to the contrary yet and I believe we should encourage rather than warn in this case...

Of all the foreigner-dominican relationships described on this and other boards this seems to be a healthy exception to the rule of 'I met my gf/bf at the resort'... imo it should be encouraged..

Of course the OP should not be blind to future information that comes his way but I think that he should go for it, based on the information as posted by him.

MD
 

anonymous1960

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A few things here.

First, conservative Dominican girls who are otherwise eligible for marriage to a Dominican man don't bother with foreigners.

Dominican society did not undergo Illuminism. This means that persons don't exist as individuals, but as members of a family/clan. Marrying outside the clan or to individuals who do not belong locally means losing all privileges and facilities granted to members, and since DR is not a democracy, but a kind of feudal society, this is almost equivalent to losing your civil rights.

Dominican society has got two casts, the "respectable" and the "poor". They don't mix, and poor people have almost no rights.

Dominican girls lose their right to marry to a "respectable" Dominican man when becoming pregnant outside of wedlock, or when making a similar social mistake. The sentence can not be appealed, and it is served by the "damas" who congregate in church. At that point, she can resignate to not marrying anymore, to marrying a poor, or marrying a foreigner, all equivalent choices.

In case she marries a foreigner who decides to take her abroad, she will go from a feudal society to the 21st century in a few hours, the time of a plane flight. I can hardly imagine apdating to such a shift.

If this were not enough, there is the problem of responsibility. In the Western world, responsibility is individual. I, as an individual, am responsible for my own actions. In DR (throughout casts) responsibility is shared. Whatever I do, my clans/family will bear the weight of my actions with me. Dominican women, who, in addition to the aforementioned, usually delegate responsibility to men, will crumble in a split second when confronted with the consequences of their actions and withdraw in total denial.

But of course, you might have met the daughter of a very tolerant father who actually taught their daughters to be opened to other cultures and lifestyles, made them live, through books, the Illuminism, gave them a passion for non-Dominican music and food, and so on.

Please investigate before putting your balls under a sledgehammer.
 

MrMike

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Mar 2, 2003
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anonymous1960 said:
But of course, you might have met the daughter of a very tolerant father who actually taught their daughters to be opened to other cultures and lifestyles, made them live, through books, the Illuminism, gave them a passion for non-Dominican music and food, and so on.

Or one who has not been soured on gringos yet. There are some out there, plus if you make an effort to integrate into respectable Dominican society you can get around some of the issues with being foreign.

Great post, btw - you have definitely been doing your homework.
 
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anonymous1960 said:
A few things here.

First, conservative Dominican girls who are otherwise eligible for marriage to a Dominican man don't bother with foreigners.

Dominican society did not undergo Illuminism. This means that persons don't exist as individuals, but as members of a family/clan. Marrying outside the clan or to individuals who do not belong locally means losing all privileges and facilities granted to members, and since DR is not a democracy, but a kind of feudal society, this is almost equivalent to losing your civil rights.

Dominican society has got two casts, the "respectable" and the "poor". They don't mix, and poor people have almost no rights.

Dominican girls lose their right to marry to a "respectable" Dominican man when becoming pregnant outside of wedlock, or when making a similar social mistake. The sentence can not be appealed, and it is served by the "damas" who congregate in church. At that point, she can resignate to not marrying anymore, to marrying a poor, or marrying a foreigner, all equivalent choices.

In case she marries a foreigner who decides to take her abroad, she will go from a feudal society to the 21st century in a few hours, the time of a plane flight. I can hardly imagine apdating to such a shift.

If this were not enough, there is the problem of responsibility. In the Western world, responsibility is individual. I, as an individual, am responsible for my own actions. In DR (throughout casts) responsibility is shared. Whatever I do, my clans/family will bear the weight of my actions with me. Dominican women, who, in addition to the aforementioned, usually delegate responsibility to men, will crumble in a split second when confronted with the consequences of their actions and withdraw in total denial.

But of course, you might have met the daughter of a very tolerant father who actually taught their daughters to be opened to other cultures and lifestyles, made them live, through books, the Illuminism, gave them a passion for non-Dominican music and food, and so on.

Please investigate before putting your balls under a sledgehammer.

Anonymous,

Even though your post is thoughtful and for the most part I believe the information to be correct, all I am saying is that in this particular case we don't have sufficient information to form a balanced opinion.

We might want to refrain therefore of offering a (negative) opinion.

It could be that this girl is indeed a socialite fallen in disgrace, because of an abortion or some such thing, we don't know. However, given the information that her father lives in NY and works as a taxi-driver I would not place her at that level.

I think that she might come from a normal middle class family, that may have split up when the father got the opportunity to go to NY. After that the girl was left behind and tried to work her way through life.. she has a car, a steady job and a semi-solid existence in the DR.For some reason she wanted to meet this Americano from NY.

Both of our impressions are nothing more than conjecture at this point in time.

By all means do get to know her better and learn about the situation before you leap but don't go for a negative position if there is no reason as of yet to do so.
 

Gringo

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Jan 1, 2002
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What sounds to good to be true usually is.....

Tread lightly on this Babe, as something stinks in Denmark!
Go slowly as you will undoubtedly find out the alterer motive soon enough.
Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself what she sees in you?

I hope it all works out for you as one way or the other its going to cost you anyway!

Gringo
 

Barry04

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Aug 11, 2004
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Go for it!

Go for it, Man!

Just think about it. Would you be asking yourself and us all of these questions if you had met your girl in NYC or somewhere in the States? I don't think so. She seems like a good, hardworking, honest and sincere girl. She's met a nice "exotic" gringo. You should take a chance. Or you'll regret it all your life. Of course, if you don't go for it, you could settle for a nice all-American girl with an attitude. You know the ones I'm taking about. NYC and the US is full of them. So my friend, go for it.

Barry
 

chuckuindy

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Mar 8, 2004
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May be the Best

anonymous1960 said:
A few things here.

First, conservative Dominican girls who are otherwise eligible for marriage to a Dominican man don't bother with foreigners.

Dominican society did not undergo Illuminism. This means that persons don't exist as individuals, but as members of a family/clan. Marrying outside the clan or to individuals who do not belong locally means losing all privileges and facilities granted to members, and since DR is not a democracy, but a kind of feudal society, this is almost equivalent to losing your civil rights.

Dominican society has got two casts, the "respectable" and the "poor". They don't mix, and poor people have almost no rights.

Dominican girls lose their right to marry to a "respectable" Dominican man when becoming pregnant outside of wedlock, or when making a similar social mistake. The sentence can not be appealed, and it is served by the "damas" who congregate in church. At that point, she can resignate to not marrying anymore, to marrying a poor, or marrying a foreigner, all equivalent choices.

In case she marries a foreigner who decides to take her abroad, she will go from a feudal society to the 21st century in a few hours, the time of a plane flight. I can hardly imagine apdating to such a shift.

If this were not enough, there is the problem of responsibility. In the Western world, responsibility is individual. I, as an individual, am responsible for my own actions. In DR (throughout casts) responsibility is shared. Whatever I do, my clans/family will bear the weight of my actions with me. Dominican women, who, in addition to the aforementioned, usually delegate responsibility to men, will crumble in a split second when confronted with the consequences of their actions and withdraw in total denial.

But of course, you might have met the daughter of a very tolerant father who actually taught their daughters to be opened to other cultures and lifestyles, made them live, through books, the Illuminism, gave them a passion for non-Dominican music and food, and so on.

Please investigate before putting your balls under a sledgehammer.

This may be the best post I have seen on this subject.
 

Bartolomeo67

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Mar 18, 2004
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Not all dominicanas are like that

anonymous1960 said:
First, conservative Dominican girls who are otherwise eligible for marriage to a Dominican man don't bother with foreigners.

Hi Anonymous,
Very interesting and very true what you wrote.
However in my opinion this applies only to the traditional conservative dominican girls from the campo or poor barrios who's sole ambition in life is to be a loving mother and good housewife. Off course there are still many like that but not this guy's girlfriend.
I have met several young women from the 'city' (SD, STI, POP), middle- and lower class, but with ambitions to make something of their lives, who refuse to marry any dominican man. Simply because they know they are going to be cheated upon, if not mistreated, and know also that their macho man will not accept that she continues to study and be more intelligent and have a better job than he does. They have seen it happen too many times to their relatives and friends. These are reasons enough for them not to marry a dominican. None of them want to leave their country though, they love it, but prefer a 'respectable' foreigner.
Bartolomeo
 

chuckuindy

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Mar 8, 2004
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Oh how True

Bartolomeo67 said:
Hi Anonymous,
Very interesting and very true what you wrote.
However in my opinion this applies only to the traditional conservative dominican girls from the campo or poor barrios who's sole ambition in life is to be a loving mother and good housewife. Off course there are still many like that but not this guy's girlfriend.
I have met several young women from the 'city' (SD, STI, POP), middle- and lower class, but with ambitions to make something of their lives, who refuse to marry any dominican man. Simply because they know they are going to be cheated upon, if not mistreated, and know also that their macho man will not accept that she continues to study and be more intelligent and have a better job than he does. They have seen it happen too many times to their relatives and friends. These are reasons enough for them not to marry a dominican. None of them want to leave their country though, they love it, but prefer a 'respectable' foreigner.
Bartolomeo

If my Tonya could type in English this is exactly what she would say. Thanks for the insight.
Charlie
 

Lambada

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Mar 4, 2004
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Absolutely right. The perception is that gringos treat the women better as people. Perception & reality coincide on this one. Have to say if my partner exits before I do, I will remain in solitary splendour. The gap in expectations would be too wide for me to take on board Dominican machismo!
 

anonymous1960

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Variations on the theme

Bartolomeo67 said:
Hi Anonymous,
Very interesting and very true what you wrote.
However in my opinion this applies only to the traditional conservative dominican girls from the campo or poor barrios who's sole ambition in life is to be a loving mother and good housewife. Off course there are still many like that but not this guy's girlfriend.
I have met several young women from the 'city' (SD, STI, POP), middle- and lower class, but with ambitions to make something of their lives, who refuse to marry any dominican man. Simply because they know they are going to be cheated upon, if not mistreated, and know also that their macho man will not accept that she continues to study and be more intelligent and have a better job than he does. They have seen it happen too many times to their relatives and friends. These are reasons enough for them not to marry a dominican. None of them want to leave their country though, they love it, but prefer a 'respectable' foreigner.
Bartolomeo


That opens a very interesting chapter of the book.

What I described happens in the countryside and in remote/rural areas. But how does all that apply to Santo Domingo, and a few other cities? In a few words, those girls do Icarus' flights.

I'll take the capital, Santo Domingo, as an example. The city has developed to a size that is completely beyond the ability of its mayor(s) to handle. Bella Vista and a few other ensanches can be compared to clean low-class neighborhoods in the first world, but the rest of Santo Domingo is totally garbage-strewn, unsafe, since the police is 100% unable to guarantee any safety anywhere in town (including those ensanches) and polluted beyond imagination - acoustically, environmentally, everything.
Crossing a street anywhere is putting your life in your own hands, queues anywhere are routinely bypassed, gun-carrying is widespread, service is horrible in any given store, and government offices are the kingdom of "buscones".

Nonetheless, a small low-middle class developed, I think after Trujillo died, but I am not sure. Those girls are administrative assistants, casino attendants, cashiers, and so on. They make about 6000-7000 pesos a month, and they go to university. They definitely cannot afford a visa to any country, so their future is bolted to the country.

They usually live in barrios like Los Mina or Los Alcarrizos, and perhaps their parents own their own house, so the girls' entire income is available to pay for university and some clothes.

After university, they keep pretty much the same kind of job, maybe making a few thousand peso more. Usually it is only women who manage to keep those jobs, since the daily humiliation is immense and career perspectives are nil. Men usually walk other paths (taxi driver, tiny store owner etc).

So what we have here is a person that lives in virtual limbo. She is a virtual micro-bourgeoise, forever frozen in her position by the enormous fluctuations in Dominican economy.

What's important here is that their lives are really frozen. There are two factors here. Number one, Dominican politics is enormously corrupt, and more so after the country has become a narcorepublic (check on google). Number two, DR is made of oligopolies, new companies are rapidly choked to death through government lobbying, dumping, and all sort of abuse. They cannot hope for a better job in the private sector, and decent jobs in the government last 4 years. A teacher lasts longer, making 2500 pesos/month.

This means that I, as a micro-bourgeoise, will never seee an increase in the number of peers of mine, people in my same social-economic condition, since the amount of available bourgeoise jobs is fixed.

They are not poor neither rich, and they have nobody to talk to. They disdain the poor, and are disdained by the rich. Usually, if they marry a Dominican, they rapidly get divorced, because of their unwillingness to integrate another class (the poor).

Enter the foreigner. He will find a girl who lives an extremely hard life, with no friends or family able to bail her from a sentimental fall. That puts a big strain on the relationship right away, since the girl will proceed extremely cautiosly or extreemly hastily. Walking with a white man in any part of the country is tantamount to carry an "I am a prostitute" sign throughout the country. Her few, precious friends will warn her immediately of possible danger ahead.

Also, you won't be able to tell if she actually likes you. Remember, in 2004 the peso lost 66% of its value, and salaries did not go up. You might be the difference between going to university and not going to university, eating correctly or eating fried bananas.

She will push for a hasted marriage, either for economic reasons, or to avoid being left to total destitution should things go sour, or delay things forever. The rate of success, in my experience, is close to zero.

So, my friends, these are the rules of the game. Place your bets...
 
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