I just want to add one also for me even if I don't add much to the conversation!!! First round from Poppi, good discussion guys take care
Biggs
Biggs
- Thread starter rellosk
- Start date
Sosa HOF?
the more i think about this, the more i think that sosa is going to make the hall of fame. i would say that i'm 70-30 leaning towards him making it.....i know that cleef is on record as saying he won't and chip says 2nd ballot he will get through. after all the disagreement i had with chip, i think this is about right. anyone else care to chime in on an informal poll? does sosa make it to the hall of fame? (btw, this is not a question of should he be inducted, but a prediction of what will actually happen.)
PR Machine will determine outcome.
The bold type is a good thing to keep in mind. I don't feel he doesn't deserve to get in - or shouldn't get in - I just don't think he will.
I think MLB will want to avoid this steroid era from being remembered. On the other hand, perhaps exclusion will keep it more in the spotlight than induction would.
It always comes back to money, and they will want to be as politically correct as they can with this issue, for the sake of the sponsors more than the integrity of the game (unfortunately).
What's given you this 70% chance? I'm curious.
The bold type is a good thing to keep in mind. I don't feel he doesn't deserve to get in - or shouldn't get in - I just don't think he will.
I think MLB will want to avoid this steroid era from being remembered. On the other hand, perhaps exclusion will keep it more in the spotlight than induction would.
It always comes back to money, and they will want to be as politically correct as they can with this issue, for the sake of the sponsors more than the integrity of the game (unfortunately).
He's not getting in.
He did himself no favors in 3 MLB clubhouses. He, like McGuire, did the game a major disservice when called before Congress. Unlike McGuire, who declined to comment on it, this idiot suddenly didn't speak nor understand English.
Like Bonds in SF, the city nor club didn't cry when he left. I wonder why. Even the hometown media was indifferent to it. More like, good riddance!!!
So now, onto the numbers. What were Sammy's career stats pre-steroids and post-steroids? He wasn't particularly dominant pre nor post the steroids years. From 1998-2002, he amassed 292 of those 600 home runs.
Let's say he didn't do steroids, and his career progressed as it were prior to 1998. Let's say he hits 50% of the 292, giving him approx. 460 HRs, and no MVP award, etc. Is this even a conversation? That's as bad as Rafael Palmiero and Edgar Martinez. Nice players, nice stats, but did they ever dominate during their time? No. Will they be seriously considered for the HOF? No.
Sammy Sosa Baseball Stats by Baseball Almanac
(And no, while not being there while he was taken injections in the culo, my common sense directs me to believe that Sammy took steroids and whatever else. The benefit of the doubt goes to his character, and he's shown he had little.)
Here's the thing about the PR machine. 5 years from when he retires, and his name comes up for the HOF, you think baseball wil want to relive the steroid era stories????? That's Sammy's legacy. Steroid-induced single-season HR record chase with Mcguire, inflated numbers, corked bat usage, buffoonery in front of Congress, etc. All of this comes back up 1st ballot, 2nd ballot, 3rd, 4th...... No PR machine can gloss over these facts, not in today's world where everybody's wired, and all dirt eventually comes to light.
He did himself no favors in 3 MLB clubhouses. He, like McGuire, did the game a major disservice when called before Congress. Unlike McGuire, who declined to comment on it, this idiot suddenly didn't speak nor understand English.
Like Bonds in SF, the city nor club didn't cry when he left. I wonder why. Even the hometown media was indifferent to it. More like, good riddance!!!
So now, onto the numbers. What were Sammy's career stats pre-steroids and post-steroids? He wasn't particularly dominant pre nor post the steroids years. From 1998-2002, he amassed 292 of those 600 home runs.
Let's say he didn't do steroids, and his career progressed as it were prior to 1998. Let's say he hits 50% of the 292, giving him approx. 460 HRs, and no MVP award, etc. Is this even a conversation? That's as bad as Rafael Palmiero and Edgar Martinez. Nice players, nice stats, but did they ever dominate during their time? No. Will they be seriously considered for the HOF? No.
Sammy Sosa Baseball Stats by Baseball Almanac
(And no, while not being there while he was taken injections in the culo, my common sense directs me to believe that Sammy took steroids and whatever else. The benefit of the doubt goes to his character, and he's shown he had little.)
Here's the thing about the PR machine. 5 years from when he retires, and his name comes up for the HOF, you think baseball wil want to relive the steroid era stories????? That's Sammy's legacy. Steroid-induced single-season HR record chase with Mcguire, inflated numbers, corked bat usage, buffoonery in front of Congress, etc. All of this comes back up 1st ballot, 2nd ballot, 3rd, 4th...... No PR machine can gloss over these facts, not in today's world where everybody's wired, and all dirt eventually comes to light.
You guys can postulate until you are blue in the face about how Sammy is not going in, the only problem is the majority of the news reports last year that came out were very positive - and guess who votes for the hof - not you guys, that for tootin sure!
i don't know, its just the feeling i have. at first i was like 55/45. i thought he would get in just about even chances. i think chip changed my mind a little bit. i still think he took steroids and i think its generally accepted that he did take them, but there is no real evidence of his use; not enough to keep him out.
while i agree that mlb wants this to go away, two things: 1. it is the sports writers and not mlb that votes for this. i think they are split on this issue, but a great many realize what sosa and mcguire did for the game and that baseball knew all along and encouraged the steroid use and now want to wash their hands of it. 2. really if they just want this (steroids) to just go away, it is easier to just vote him in. because it is more of a controversy if they don't vote him in. he obviously has the numbers to make the hall and there is no solid evidence of his use. his testimony did not look good, but not as bad and as obvious as it was with macguire. if they keep him out it will not go away. if they put him in, there might be some backlash, but i think after 5 years it will not be that big of a deal and we can all move on. i really won't be surprised either way, but i think he'll get in.
Nah, I just recognize this particular cheater and won't cover my eyes to it. This is why baseball is so ****ed-up. Tolerating bull**** for TV ratings.
Name one thing that I stated that wasn't true. 300 HRs during at least 5 steroid-enhanced years. 300 more over 11 other years?
When they (the voters) go back and review Sammy's record, the videos, the drama, those 5 yrs against the rest of his career, AND the character qualifications for him, it's not gonna happen. What credible source are they gonna ask for a character reference? Dubya?
Look at what they did to McGuire, and they (the voters) LIKED him. It appears that his 2nd ballot will be worse. Fool yourselves about Sammy all you want, but don't hold your breath.
More deserving players like Jim Rice and Jack Morris will now get closer looks, when compared against the likes of the steroid age.
To answer someone else, Big Papi needs a bunch more (5-7) very productive years before it'll be a consideration. If I'm correct, there hasn't been a fulltime DH elected to the HOF to date. The purists have been winning that argument for a long time. We had a spirited debate here on DR1 2-3 years ago about the AL MVP, ARod or Big Papi. We know how that played out. ARod got the edge because he put up those huge numbers while fielding his position very well. I fear Big Papi will have to make an overwhelming case, like ridiculous case, to be inducted.
3 more rings should do it!
I think the drama in many of Ortiz's HRs will help him immensely with the voters, but he definitely needs to produce for a few more years to pad his totals before he's a legitimate candidate.
Winning 5 World Series rings should help him too!
I think the drama in many of Ortiz's HRs will help him immensely with the voters, but he definitely needs to produce for a few more years to pad his totals before he's a legitimate candidate.
Winning 5 World Series rings should help him too!
Unsure
Assuming they are split on this, induction would give more fuel to the fire, and more for sports writers to complain about - bitching and moaning sells more papers than centered and objective reporting, we KNOW that!
I'm not sure your second point is valid, considering induction would give the writers - voters - more work to do.
As it stands, there are more shoes to fall, more smoking guns to be uncovered. This, in addition to the witch hunt underway, will not help Mr. Sosa's chances.
Assuming they are split on this, induction would give more fuel to the fire, and more for sports writers to complain about - bitching and moaning sells more papers than centered and objective reporting, we KNOW that!
I'm not sure your second point is valid, considering induction would give the writers - voters - more work to do.
As it stands, there are more shoes to fall, more smoking guns to be uncovered. This, in addition to the witch hunt underway, will not help Mr. Sosa's chances.
I think the drama in many of Ortiz's HRs will help him immensely with the voters, but he definitely needs to produce for a few more years to pad his totals before he's a legitimate candidate.
Winning 5 World Series rings should help him too!
no doubt about it. he has more walk-off hits in the post season than anybody in history and he got all of his in one year! he'll definitely be helped out by those.
what i meant by that was this: we all agree that he has the numbers, yes? there is no solid evidence of his steroid use. i think that by denying sosa on a hunch that he did steroids (alright maybe more than a hunch, but nothing substantial, really) it is more controversial to keep him out because he certainly qualifies otherwise. i guess really its going to be a controversy either way, but its just easier to put these guys in and move on. otherwise you are speculating with everyone. did he use? did he? basically a whole generation used. are they going to keep the all out?
If one can put aside prejudices and think about what the writers will have to work with in regard to Sammy, what evidence do they have that he used steriods? Unlike Macgwire in front of a US congressional panel, he did not taker the fifth, but clearly stated for the record with the threat of perjury and jail time, that he did not take steriods. A lot of you guys want to find guilt by the fact that he used a translator, but I wonder how fluent you guys are in another language? Well let me tell you, I am consisdered quite fluent, but I had to go before a judge here in the DR with jail time hanging in the balance, believe me I would want them to translate. The fact is, when the writers actually sit down and analyze the evidence, they too will realize that using an intrepeter means nothing, because they would have done the exact same thing. It is also funny how you guys somehow think Sammy's English is so good - give me a break. In fact I have listened to him in Spanish, and honestly that isn't so good either, which isn't hard to understand given his education level and background.
I understand your point, but understand mine. Look at Bernie Williams' postseason stats. They'll shock you. He has 4 WS rings, made numerous All-Star appearances, won 4 Gold gloves, played CF for the Yankees, etc...and HE probably won't get in.
While Big Papi was/is a big part of the success of the Red Sox, playing DH alone certainly won't help his HOF cause. He would have to string together 10+ seasons of 35-40, 110-120 RBIs and avg. .300 to make that case overwhelming.
Walk-off hits are spectacular, but don't lend any additional weight. Check Joe Carter, Kirk Gibson, etc.
Head in the sand.
Do you still believe Palmeiro? He said he didn't take steroids, and was made a liar a week later.
Chip, please.
They had him in front of Congress. I doubt they were picking names out of a hat for attendees.
Whatever. There's no difference really.
Do you still believe Palmeiro? He said he didn't take steroids, and was made a liar a week later.
Yeah, more to the point here. Sammy's education level is so low that he can barely put together a sentence in Spanish, BUT, he's smart enough to not take any PED's because they - and all the glory and fame that comes with HRs - are not worth it to a shoe shine boy from one of the poorest communities in a very poor country.
Chip, please.
Cleef
What about Curt Shilling, huh? You can ignore the facts of the case and somehow claim there is no difference between what Sammy and Macgwire did, but the bottom line is the current attitude by the writers with regard to Sammy is a lot better than you would like to believe. Guess whose opinion matters most?
As far as the comment about the foreign language, I gather you aren't proficient in Spanish, because if you would you could see my point.
What about Curt Shilling, huh? You can ignore the facts of the case and somehow claim there is no difference between what Sammy and Macgwire did, but the bottom line is the current attitude by the writers with regard to Sammy is a lot better than you would like to believe. Guess whose opinion matters most?
As far as the comment about the foreign language, I gather you aren't proficient in Spanish, because if you would you could see my point.
Fan Boy.
I'm not entirely sure why Schilling was there - other than his standing as a player union rep, a well spoken, thoughtful and obviously passionate believer in the good of the game. I doubt very highly he was there because they suspected he was a user. I think we both know - although I'm the only one admitting it - Sammy wasn't there to be a quote machine. The questions to him were to his ballooning body mass, unquantifiable HR total surge over a 5 year span; those type of things an investigator would notice.
What "facts of the case" are you referring to? Everything is circumstantial, sans Palmeiro and the players who admitted usage.
I don't see any difference. At least McGwire (you may as well start spelling the name right if you're going to constantly compare and contrast him in your debates) stood up and took the heat. Sammy somehow became dumber [sic] once in the principal's office. And you want to defend him?
I'll agree that most sportswriters appear to be dopes, however, what is for sure is that they all have agendas and as we've seen year after year, some have axes to grind about the grand ole game. Some are traditionalists, some are more personality driven, others are pure homers.
If you have something for me to read that would allow me to believe "... the bottom line is the current attitude by the writers with regard to Sammy is a lot better than you would like to believe" please pass it along. I read extensive amounts weekly and this information must have slipped by.
I'm done entertaining your fan-boydem. The language and cultural barrier for Latinos in MLB is the main reason I ever ended up in the country in the first place.
Stop bothering me with this, I'm trying to watch the Sox get their World Championship rings. Again.
I'm not entirely sure why Schilling was there - other than his standing as a player union rep, a well spoken, thoughtful and obviously passionate believer in the good of the game. I doubt very highly he was there because they suspected he was a user. I think we both know - although I'm the only one admitting it - Sammy wasn't there to be a quote machine. The questions to him were to his ballooning body mass, unquantifiable HR total surge over a 5 year span; those type of things an investigator would notice.
What "facts of the case" are you referring to? Everything is circumstantial, sans Palmeiro and the players who admitted usage.
I don't see any difference. At least McGwire (you may as well start spelling the name right if you're going to constantly compare and contrast him in your debates) stood up and took the heat. Sammy somehow became dumber [sic] once in the principal's office. And you want to defend him?
I'll agree that most sportswriters appear to be dopes, however, what is for sure is that they all have agendas and as we've seen year after year, some have axes to grind about the grand ole game. Some are traditionalists, some are more personality driven, others are pure homers.
If you have something for me to read that would allow me to believe "... the bottom line is the current attitude by the writers with regard to Sammy is a lot better than you would like to believe" please pass it along. I read extensive amounts weekly and this information must have slipped by.
If Spanish was my first, second and third language (and knew it in braille as well) I'm certain I wouldn't see your fan-boy point.Cleef
What about Curt Shilling, huh? You can ignore the facts of the case and somehow claim there is no difference between what Sammy and Macgwire did, but the bottom line is the current attitude by the writers with regard to Sammy is a lot better than you would like to believe. Guess whose opinion matters most?
As far as the comment about the foreign language, I gather you aren't proficient in Spanish, because if you would you could see my point.
I'm done entertaining your fan-boydem. The language and cultural barrier for Latinos in MLB is the main reason I ever ended up in the country in the first place.
Stop bothering me with this, I'm trying to watch the Sox get their World Championship rings. Again.