- Thread starter Dolores1
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16 May 2008 Election Day reports
Did you show her the video/pics of Amable handing out money? Of people fighting for salami's? Explain botellas and why the about a fifth of the population of voting age is member of the winning party?
Oh well, I guess the judgement will be 'free and fair', based on a two-day visit...
Amable's abysmal result means either he was outbid by the botellas/tarjetas/handouts from the two bigger parties, or the electorate is getting a little more sophisticated...
My friend has lived and worked here, so she is fully aware of clientilism in DR politics. The monitoring visit involved just observing the polling process, but when I see her later today I'll ask to what extent their conclusions will take broader campaigning irregularities into account.
The use of state resources in the campaign was frankly blatant and shameless. Not to say either of the other parties would have refrained from using their advantage had they been in power, but I believe that the scale was unprecedented.
That would be great. To be clear, my comment was not directed at your friend, just the general tendency of election observers to only focus observations and judgements on election day proceedings, and not what preceeds that. I'm also sure most observers in general are fully aware of the political systems of the countries they observe, but not everyone they report to is...
I looked at the early editions, see that at least a 20+% abstention rate, 53% is 4% down from 2004, against a fairly well discredited PRD, and a lack-luster and leaderless PRSC...
Obviously, the "thinking" public does not exist, with Moreno getting just 0.44% of the vote and Eduardo Estrella just a fraction more....
It seems that we'll have to get really bad before anything moves the PLD out. The PRD is too mired in the old PPH messes of Hipolito, but they do have a hard core voting public of about 1.8 million or so (+/-)... So the "swing voters" will be the deciders next time, If there IS a next time..
I went to Jarabacoa this morning to pick up Missy HB, the pup. Cobraboy had graciously picked her up in Juan Dolio on Wednesday. The reason I mention the trip is that the route was fairly well lined with PLD hooters and hollarers celebrating the triumph. But not really that many...They did cause traffic jams.
HB
Obviously, the "thinking" public does not exist, with Moreno getting just 0.44% of the vote and Eduardo Estrella just a fraction more....
It seems that we'll have to get really bad before anything moves the PLD out. The PRD is too mired in the old PPH messes of Hipolito, but they do have a hard core voting public of about 1.8 million or so (+/-)... So the "swing voters" will be the deciders next time, If there IS a next time..
I went to Jarabacoa this morning to pick up Missy HB, the pup. Cobraboy had graciously picked her up in Juan Dolio on Wednesday. The reason I mention the trip is that the route was fairly well lined with PLD hooters and hollarers celebrating the triumph. But not really that many...They did cause traffic jams.
HB
Etch these words in steel: Come next election, the PRD will cease to exist as the one other contender for elections in the DR...
Pay attention to today's other political arms which had made some impact of over 2 to 4% in the counts, they'll be the other party to contend come elections after next cycle.
The PRD failed miserably to get new blood in the ranks; all those big shots are tainted and guilty by association since last they held office.
Leonel is NOT the best option for the DR or the PLD as of today, but...
Given the least worrisome and gut wrenching of the possible winners of these elections, one must agree the outcome is a relief of sorts for the time being...
By the next round of elections, most candidates and powers that be in the PRD will be either under indictment, in jail or associated with the still ongoing fall out from Mejia's disgraceful administration.
The PRD has headed the worst and most notably corrupted governments in the history of the DR. So much so, that a man unwilling to get his name muddled like Don Antonio Guzman Fernandez; opted to take his life while with honor than be hauled to jail like the scoundrels that permeated the rank and file of such party.
The PLD offers the DR very little to hope for come the next four years, just like any other vote buying party in the DR. But at least Fernandez will have a chance to finish the Metro and won't be able to blame any new administration with failure about it.
I have never voted in a Dominican election, because still today, there hasn't been a leader worth my "sufragio".
Hence, no past or present administration can be called "my government" but that of the morons that settled for the image on the mirror in exchange of our country's wealth.
I don't opt for the lesser of two evils, but neither one of them...
Really? I read here
El Nacional, la voz de todos
that they got 333,570 votes more than in 2004. In fact if you add in totals from Bulletin 8 which is now on JCE website, their increase was 516,371 votes. That's assuming El Nacional's 2004 figs. are correct. Taking DR1's PRD figs for 2004 (1,432,548) the 2008 figs. still show a 192,223 increase in PRD vote. What I don't know is, whose figs. are correct for 2004 PRD total?
El Nacional has abstention rate at 35% - highest since 1990 41%.
PRD total includes the annexed political affiliations that agreed to provide their voters to the PRD's tally...
Add the vote buying effect (all parties do it) and you can see the ever present growth dissipate to the same or under totals of the past elections.
Keep in mind that the PRD prior to PLD and post PR (PRSC) never lost an election, but fraud was the mobile by which the party in the seat kept the power. The PRD was always the biggest party of the DR.
Today that's not the case anymore...
Everyone's total includes the annexed political affiliations, PLD's likewise.
'Contrario a esto, el Partido de la Liberaci?n Dominicana (PLD), que gan? los comicios con la sumatoria de los partidos aliados y los 600 movimientos de apoyo, redujo su votaci?n de 49,02% que obtuvo en las elecciones del 2004 al 44,61% computado esta madrugada.
El partido blanco, sin aliados, alcanz? en estos comicios, de acuerdo al bolet?n n?mero siete, un un mill?n 441 mil 970 votos, frente a un mill?n 108 mil 400 sufragios alcanzados en el 2004, para un crecimiento de 333 mil 570 votos.'
I'm sorry, I don't quite follow this. Perhaps it would help if you specified whether you mean actual hard numbers or percentage of total votes gained or percentage of total possible electorate?
Those numbers for the PRD reflect "alianzas pre-electorias" which means they're treated like a direct vote for the PRD and not the political affiliation in record with the JCE...
When your party gets annexed to a bigger one way before elections, the JCE treats those votes as if they were to the annexed party for tally counts (individuals). The political affiliation ceases to exist in the electoral ballot, but the members don't.
The PRD is known to hold more than 300 of such political affiliations before the lections every cycle. Once the elections are over, they apply once the JCE accepts new applications for the next.
They aim mostly to the young and non-affiliated individuals in the DR, that in most cases shun the political process...
It's how you see many times an unknown person from a major political party like PRD or PLD, gaining a seat in some province against a well known name...
If you really want to know the real numbers, all you have to do (like us) is to get the list from the JCE two months before the elections. There you'll find the names and annexed list of all political affiliations not listed in the ballots.
Hope this helps you understand a bit more the political system of the DR!!!
I'm a founding father of one of those political affiliations: Movimiento de la Identidad Dominicana, later Partido del Pueblo Dominicano (PPD).
If you don't vote...
Can you vote? Are you a Dominican citizen? By your comment I will tentatively assume so, if not I'm sorry ahead of time. But in my opinion, if you don't vote you can't complain. It makes your arguments null. You need to get involved in the democratic process and voice your opinion that way and if things don't change then you can continue to voice an opinion. Voting is a tool and sitting at home doesn't help the process. We can't say "I won't vote" and then leave this up to the fanatical voters. Voting is the only tool we have as citizens to have a voice heard and every time you don't vote you've basically disregarded the lives of those who died to allow us to live in a democracy, no matter how bad. I'd prefer a million times to be able to vote for MVP or Leonel than live under the rule of a Trujillo or Balaguer.
Having said that, there was the lesser of two evils, and then there was a real candidate, Guillermo Moreno. Why not vote for him and get him some real votes and be part of a real movement to get an honest man in office? Is Guillermo Moreno not worth you voting? I thought I was voting PLD and then I realized that Moreno was the BEST candidate for this country. Even better than Estrella. He is a candidate of change and I know I did my best to get the best candidate in office. He made a splash in these elections so hopefully he continues.
Like I said, if I've assumed incorrectly that you are Dominican, I apologize ahead of time.
Mr. Lu
Can you vote? Are you a Dominican citizen? By your comment I will tentatively assume so, if not I'm sorry ahead of time. But in my opinion, if you don't vote you can't complain. It makes your arguments null. You need to get involved in the democratic process and voice your opinion that way and if things don't change then you can continue to voice an opinion. Voting is a tool and sitting at home doesn't help the process. We can't say "I won't vote" and then leave this up to the fanatical voters. Voting is the only tool we have as citizens to have a voice heard and every time you don't vote you've basically disregarded the lives of those who died to allow us to live in a democracy, no matter how bad. I'd prefer a million times to be able to vote for MVP or Leonel than live under the rule of a Trujillo or Balaguer.
Having said that, there was the lesser of two evils, and then there was a real candidate, Guillermo Moreno. Why not vote for him and get him some real votes and be part of a real movement to get an honest man in office? Is Guillermo Moreno not worth you voting? I thought I was voting PLD and then I realized that Moreno was the BEST candidate for this country. Even better than Estrella. He is a candidate of change and I know I did my best to get the best candidate in office. He made a splash in these elections so hopefully he continues.
Like I said, if I've assumed incorrectly that you are Dominican, I apologize ahead of time.
Mr. Lu
Yes thank you, Pichardo, I hoped I had already grasped this..........the point I was making is that both the large parties have these alliances so it is no different for one from the other. You can't single out the PRD and say only they have them. The PLD does too..............lord knows the PLD went to enough efforts to get them this time round.
And Tejada in Diario Libre says 'Con todos los pron?sticos en contra, el ingeniero Vargas Maldonado logr? mejorar sustancialmente el porcentaje de votos logrados por su partido, en comparaci?n con los comicios anteriores' so it wasn't just El Nacional
A.M. - Jornada hist?rica - DiarioLibre.com
Mr Lu, your candidate did well as a late-starting party with little funds and no bribery & I, too, hope he continues his political aspirations. And a question, if I may...........if he continues and MIUCA grows and becomes a significant player for 2012 as a party of principle and ethics, how will it overcome decades of voters expecting to be either bought or paid off for services rendered? This isn't meant to be a slur against Dominicans (I tend to see the problem originating from colonial times) but it is a real issue. And if the next 4 years sees even more belt-tightening, taxation etc what will impel the electorate to vote for long-term gain rather than short-term payoff?
Dominican born, raised and live in the DR...
I can vote 100% but as posted before, won't due to the lack of available leadership in the actual and past elections...
I will use the vote once the PRD and PRSC along with the PLD can be put out of the picture in our electoral process, until then it's all sham and mirrors no matter how you opt to vote Moreno or not...
PRSC is gone, PRD is on their way out, PLD will either make it or start fading on these next 4 years...
You need opportunity in the floor so that other dancers can roll to the tune...
But
You need to vote for someone else in order to get Moreno and guys like him in office. You get the PLD and PRD out by supporting secondary and terciary players. You can't just stay quite. By staying quiet you just add to the status quo because the fanatics go out and vote. For Moreno to have a chance you need give him a chance. He is the other option.
You need to vote for someone else in order to get Moreno and guys like him in office. You get the PLD and PRD out by supporting secondary and terciary players. You can't just stay quite. By staying quiet you just add to the status quo because the fanatics go out and vote. For Moreno to have a chance you need give him a chance. He is the other option.
Like I said, the floor has to be ready for the dancers to participate in the Ball...
Until then: I keep my vote clean of corruption...
Until then: I keep my vote clean of corruption...
Don't worry! The way things are going, it won't take more than two electoral cycles to have my vote count!!! Good things come to those who are patient enough...
A good friend told me I was crazy to say that the Partido Reformista would go the way of the Indian some day not too distant from us... That was 16 years to the date...
The PRD will never again see the reins of power in the DR...
It will make a lot of noise and crackles, but no celebrations...
Les vaticino el surgimiento de una nueva Era en la pol?tica Dominicana...
PRD, PRSC, PLD, PCD, P**, etc... Will no longer hold our fellow Dominicans by their wallets and buying "conciencias"...
A good friend told me I was crazy to say that the Partido Reformista would go the way of the Indian some day not too distant from us... That was 16 years to the date...
The PRD will never again see the reins of power in the DR...
It will make a lot of noise and crackles, but no celebrations...
Les vaticino el surgimiento de una nueva Era en la pol?tica Dominicana...
PRD, PRSC, PLD, PCD, P**, etc... Will no longer hold our fellow Dominicans by their wallets and buying "conciencias"...
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They basically block the entrance into the area for those that did not appear interested in their bribe, motorcycles and men women block one side of the small road so there was only one way to get to vote walking with moving cars next to you.