Dominicans, who are the bigger fools?

[Robert]

I guess now I think about it, the recent going's on with the PRD and the deal with Leonel brought on my OP. Plus now the rumors about Leonel's wife (First Lady) running for the big job in 2012.

It just reeks of discontent and distain for the Dominican people or the average "Joe" on the street. Combine this with the "Joe's" inherent greed, poor education, apathy and it just works. I personally think it's beautiful in it's execution, even if it's extremely sad to an outsider looking in.

The true power brokers of the country let their dogs do their thing, while the average "Joe's" inherent greed and apathy let it happen, to the point of supporting it in many cases.

Game over!

 

[Lambada]

However, at times I feel it is such a pointless endeavor to discuss or think about these affronts to decency (mostly the fleecing of the poor in this country) inevitably a feeling of nausea overcome my desire to keep revisiting the whole issue.

Is it pointless, though? Shouldn't we be analysing why it happens, why people 'allow' it to happen?

The belief that 'nothing will change' stems from what? The 'learned helplessness' legacy of the dictatorship? The evidence of history? The wholesale swallowing of the various rewrites of Dominican history? The colonial roots? The 'fuku' as described by Junot Diaz? None of the above? What I think it doesn't stem from is a systemic depression in the Dominican people - you can't accuse Dominicans of deep seated, unconscious self-loathing. Or can you?

As expats it's very convenient for us, of course, not to have the population manning the barricades in revolt. But......our convenience isn't why the DR exists.

Anyone else sense the winds of change are altering course?

 

[NALs]

I guess now I think about it, the recent going's on with the PRD and the deal with Leonel brought on my OP. Plus now the rumors about Leonel's wife (First Lady) running for the big job in 2012.

It just reeks of discontent and distain for the Dominican people or the average "Joe" on the street. Combine this with the "Joe's" inherent greed, poor education, apathy and it just works. I personally think it's beautiful in it's execution, even if it's extremely sad to an outsider looking in.

This is more of a dilemma among the political class of not seeing other capable leaders.

As you probably know, the DR political scene was dominated by three political parties (PLD, PRD, PRSC), the last one lost esteem after 1996, and especially after Balaguer died. Hence, only two political parties were left, creating a de facto two-party system. The recent agreement was simply making it official, now the DR is a two-party system; just like the U.S.

Among the PLD intelligentsia, there is a very deep distrust of the PRD. What happened during Hipolito's years is the main reason for this. On top of that, its not entirely clear if there is anyone within the PLD capable of leading the country in ways similar or better than Leonel has done thus far.

The modernization of the country is a long term ordeal, and it must remain in motion if the country is to become developed in the estimated time, considering long term economic development and economic growth rates. The PRD's lack of commitment to further modernizing the country, its lack of commitment to developing an internal consumer market, its insistance on maintaining the Dominican economy focused on the needs of other countries (ie. the US) is not something that sits well among many PLD leaders.

So, on the one hand there is the lack of modernization plans from the PRD and on the other hand is the lack of confidence of anyone else within the PLD being able of leading the country as Leonel has done.

This leads one option, for the time being.

Control the PRD and keep Fernandez in power until a solution to these two dilemmas is resolved.

Its in the country's best interest, maybe not so much in the short term, but definitely in the long term. And as its clearly evident, the long term is what truly matters. The country is the way it is, not due to recent events, but due to events that took place a long time ago.

-NALs

 

[dv8]

Is it pointless, though? Shouldn't we be analysing why it happens, why people 'allow' it to happen?
The belief that 'nothing will change' stems from what? The 'learned helplessness' legacy of the dictatorship? The evidence of history? The wholesale swallowing of the various rewrites of Dominican history? The colonial roots? The 'fuku' as described by Junot Diaz? None of the above? What I think it doesn't stem from is a systemic depression in the Dominican people - you can't accuse Dominicans of deep seated, unconscious self-loathing. Or can you?
As expats it's very convenient for us, of course, not to have the population manning the barricades in revolt. But......our convenience isn't why the DR exists.
Anyone else sense the winds of change are altering course?

i always smack miesposo in the head when he expresses this negative "nothing will change" attitude. i saw my own country change after 44 years of communism and i believe in the power of people.
i know i sound naive :ermm:

 

[cobraboy]

Is it pointless, though? Shouldn't we be analysing why it happens, why people 'allow' it to happen?

The belief that 'nothing will change' stems from what? The 'learned helplessness' legacy of the dictatorship? The evidence of history? The wholesale swallowing of the various rewrites of Dominican history? The colonial roots? The 'fuku' as described by Junot Diaz? None of the above? What I think it doesn't stem from is a systemic depression in the Dominican people - you can't accuse Dominicans of deep seated, unconscious self-loathing. Or can you?

As expats it's very convenient for us, of course, not to have the population manning the barricades in revolt. But......our convenience isn't why the DR exists.

Anyone else sense the winds of change are altering course?

Nothing changes because the majority of the Dominican people want it to change. And it won't change until the political will of the people wants it to.

Dorota makes a good argument for what I mean. There was a point when the folks under Communist oppression in Eastern Europe had had enough. The political will of the people overcame the gubmint in place.

The same could happen here, but I don't see the widespread discontent among the people to effect a big shift. Pockets of frustration, yes. Widespread? Not at all.

 

[dv8]

thank you, robert.
what i meant, in my naive way, is that people must really NEED change. in poland it was brought by opression, just like in DR the assasination of trujillo (see, dominicans can take action too). the problem is, that from the assasination things went down the hill, as far as economy and order goes. i was told that peso was exceptionally strong in trujillo times, health system and power were working well.

 

[suarezn]

I think some people are finally beginning to understand how the system is really run in The DR. Leonel, MVM, Hipolito, etc...are not the power brokers in this island. They are just puppets used in this whole game who are allowed to enrich themselves at the expense of the lower classes.

These guys can and are removed from "power" at will whenever they don't serve any purpose anymore or put in danger the order of things. They have to acquiesce to the demands of the people with the real power in The DR. Examples of this abound, but most people can't distinguish the trees from the forest. Here are a couple of examples to think about:

- The inclusion of article 30 in the constitution (Whose idea was it really? Leonel's? I don't think so)
- The passage of laws to maintain Haitians (even those born in The DR) as non-citizens and the lax enforcement of laws to allow a continued flow of cheap Haitian labor into The DR. Who benefits the most from this? Think about it for a minute. Who owns the sugar cane mills, the large resorts, etc.
- The return of all money to big investors from failed Baninter, while the small investor got nothing. Even though the bailout was so huge that was going to put huge stress (as it did) on the economy as a whole. Who benefits? Follow the money trail...
- The "capture" of Quirino and associates and subsequent handing over to US authorities. He had been operating on a very large scale for years (Even under the previous Leonel's government) in The DR without any consequences. Everybody knew it and nobody did anything until the order came to take him down.
- The lax attitude and laws on human trafficking of Dominicans to The US, Europe, etc...Who normally leaves the country? The poor. What would happen if the million+ Dominicans living outside the country nowadays would be made to stay in The DR and continue to live in poverty. Again who benefits?

Food for thought...

 

[cobraboy]

thank you, robert.
what i meant, in my naive way, is that people must really NEED change. in poland it was brought by opression, just like in DR the assasination of trujillo (see, dominicans can take action too). the problem is, that from the assasination things went down the hill, as far as economy and order goes. i was told that peso was exceptionally strong in trujillo times, health system and power were working well.

"Need" preceeds "want". Often "want" has to be described to folks. "Want" is the action plan to implement need.

I know it's wrod parsing to a certain extent.

But often folks compare their current situation to the pain necessary to get to where they "want", and decide the marginal effort isn't worth the marginal benefit. When the benefit of "want" exceeds the pain and effort for the majority of people, THAT is when Real Change will take place.

 

[Chip]

Is it pointless, though? Shouldn't we be analyzing why it happens, why people 'allow' it to happen?

The belief that 'nothing will change' stems from what? The 'learned helplessness' legacy of the dictatorship? The evidence of history? The wholesale swallowing of the various rewrites of Dominican history? The colonial roots? The 'fuku' as described by Junot Diaz? None of the above? What I think it doesn't stem from is a systemic depression in the Dominican people - you can't accuse Dominicans of deep seated, unconscious self-loathing. Or can you?

As expats it's very convenient for us, of course, not to have the population manning the barricades in revolt. But......our convenience isn't why the DR exists.

Anyone else sense the winds of change are altering course?

I may sound apathetic now but to my credit when I first came here I was all full of change and hope - so much so that I think it was HB who commented about my radical opinions, jeje. However, I have with time come to understand the depths of the problem and, while I still have hope, I now understand it will be some time for change to come because it will only come about as the youths are exposed to different ideas, etc.

I believe the peculiar phenomenon that prevents Dominicans from advancing in this regard is that are Dominicans very homogeneous in their outlook and understanding of politics outside of the DR (and many other things as well), even the more educated ones. I think this is due to the fact that the DR is a very socially constructed culture where force of will, argumentative skills and standing in the community consistently trump reason and common sense. Anybody who has ever lived here any length of time and socialized with Dominicans should certainly agree with the latter comment. Furthermore, this societal feature is well understood by the many who wield power and influence and use it mercilessly to control people and their opinions. Unfortunately, many locals, because of lack of formal education and interest in learning things and ideas foreign, accept the status quo. The ironic thing is that many understand the "system" is broken but have no idea as to a solution and even to a greater extent feel that they are powerless to change anything.

Therefore, imo change can only happen as the youths of this country receive better education and exposure to new and different ideas and sense this can only happen over time I have just decided that there is no point in getting upset over something I have little control over.

 

[ExtremeR]

I think some people are finally beginning to understand how the system is really run in The DR. Leonel, MVM, Hipolito, etc...are not the power brokers in this island. They are just puppets used in this whole game who are allowed to enrich themselves at the expense of the lower classes.

These guys can and are removed from "power" at will whenever they don't serve any purpose anymore or put in danger the order of things. They have to acquiesce to the demands of the people with the real power in The DR. Examples of this abound, but most people can't distinguish the trees from the forest. Here are a couple of examples to think about:

- The inclusion of article 30 in the constitution (Whose idea was it really? Leonel's? I don't think so)
- The passage of laws to maintain Haitians (even those born in The DR) as non-citizens and the lax enforcement of laws to allow a continued flow of cheap Haitian labor into The DR. Who benefits the most from this? Think about it for a minute. Who owns the sugar cane mills, the large resorts, etc.
- The return of all money to big investors from failed Baninter, while the small investor got nothing. Even though the bailout was so huge that was going to put huge stress (as it did) on the economy as a whole. Who benefits? Follow the money trail...
- The "capture" of Quirino and associates and subsequent handing over to US authorities. He had been operating on a very large scale for years (Even under the previous Leonel's government) in The DR without any consequences. Everybody knew it and nobody did anything until the order came to take him down.
- The lax attitude and laws on human trafficking of Dominicans to The US, Europe, etc...Who normally leaves the country? The poor. What would happen if the million+ Dominicans living outside the country nowadays would be made to stay in The DR and continue to live in poverty. Again who benefits?

Food for thought...

Exactly my thoughts...

 

[Thandie]

...I believe the peculiar phenomenon that prevents Dominicans from advancing in this regard is that are Dominicans very homogeneous in their outlook and understanding of politics outside of the DR (and many other things as well), even the more educated ones........ Unfortunately, many locals, because of lack of formal education and interest in learning things and ideas foreign, accept the status quo.

Very well said!

 

[bearcat]

It's not about being a fool. It's about who cares. Very few people care.

And all expats excluded, if you do care, what are you doing to make things better?





Mr. Lu

Mr. Lu,

As expat we are just passing through and if it gets to bad here we can go home. Why should we put ourselves in harms way to solve your problems. We are merely inconviced by them. In my counry we chnaged things by putting it all out there and if this country is to change Dominicans will have to risk it all and not settle for a tin roof.

What you get is what you will accept.

Bearcat

 

[Lambada]

Mr. Lu,

As expat we are just passing through and if it gets to bad here we can go home. Why should we put ourselves in harms way to solve your problems.

With respect, this doesn't apply to all expats. I'm not 'passing through', this is my HOME.

Does anyone have a list of the "Power Brokers" who are the puppet masters that pull the strings here in the DR?

windeguy, read what suarezn said 'Who benefits? Follow the money trail...' think large conglomerates and the families behind them.

No Chip you don't sound apathetic to me, just maybe not fully realising the power of everyday conversation. Politics doesn't have to be with a capital P, encouraging self-determination of thought can happen in a variety of ways. For example the MPs expenses scandal in UK recently provided the most useful starting point for very detailed discussions with all & sundry at the bakery I purchase from: legitimate methods of gaining some power for example. Community initiatives on the small scale are all part of this.

I have seen a change in the 16 years I've been here, that's why I made the comment above about winds changing direction.

 

[suarezn]

...If anyone doubts who one of the biggest power brokers here is just read the news today as how the constitution will now include a clause to only recognize Catholic marriages and not from any other religion. It also assures that the government continues to fund the church and makes catholicism the official religion of the country.

It bans same sex marriages (no surprise there), but it does recognizes the rights of people living together under a "free union" as long as they are from opposite sex. In other words you can't get married if you're gay, but you can have as many "wives" as you wish as long as you don't marry them. Love it...

Link below (It's in Spanish).

http://www.univision.com/contentroot/wirefeeds/50noticias/7970686.html

 

[Chip]

With respect, this doesn't apply to all expats. I'm not 'passing through', this is my HOME.



windeguy, read what suarezn said 'Who benefits? Follow the money trail...' think large conglomerates and the families behind them.

No Chip you don't sound apathetic to me, just maybe not fully realising the power of everyday conversation. Politics doesn't have to be with a capital P, encouraging self-determination of thought can happen in a variety of ways. For example the MPs expenses scandal in UK recently provided the most useful starting point for very detailed discussions with all & sundry at the bakery I purchase from: legitimate methods of gaining some power for example. Community initiatives on the small scale are all part of this.

I have seen a change in the 16 years I've been here, that's why I made the comment above about winds changing direction.

I might sound apathetic here on the threads, but politics is still a favorite topic of mine to discuss here in person. I have found better results if I also discuss what ails the political systems abroad, this way I don't sound too biased. Generally, my commentaries are well received and in fact people seem somewhat surprised and impressed about my run of the mill opinions on standard bolierplate democratic ideals, ie the politicians serve at the pleasure of the constituency. Believe it or not, the majority of the people I have encountered believe the contrary. Many tell me that I should become a politician, but what that really tells me is that people are open to change, ie if someone could finally come along with some real principals they could make a difference for the better.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

...They are just puppets used in this whole game who are allowed to enrich themselves at the expense of the lower classes...

* * *

... - The return of all money to big investors from failed Baninter, while the small investor got nothing. Even though the bailout was so huge that was going to put huge stress (as it did) on the economy as a whole. Who benefits? Follow the money trail...

So glad someone else picked up on what really happened at Baninter - A fabulously wealthy and shady guy steals billions from other fabulously wealthy and shady folks, who are then reimbursed by a purportedly socialist government.

My only quibble would be that I think the nascent middle class are actually harmed more than the poor by this kind of stuff. The poor are largely out of the cash economy.

Can anyone think of a country - outside of Europe and with a population of less than, say, a billiion - that has progressed out of the funk described in this thread in the last thirty years?

 

[Lambada]

Can anyone think of a country - outside of Europe and with a population of less than, say, a billiion - that has progressed out of the funk described in this thread in the last thirty years?

Chile maybe? In the last 15 years. Not entirely there but getting there.

 

[MikeFisher]

Suarez,
that "wifes" part sounds just like good progress to me, lol.

and of course it is the private/not oficially much in politics involved big economy/industry families/conglomerates who 'lead/rule' the country, the same in the US or any big developed country.
that's nothing new.
and changes like we saw in eastern europe, even that it "looked" for some like something 'spontaneous/quick upcoming', such changes are at the moment they occure the result of generations long lasting changes leading to the point when it will be def done.
the DR is these days in the process of big progress,
yes, even nothing finished, yet, there is progress forward on many corners, like education, like medical services.
don't tell me that it still leaks on all of them a lot, i know that and see that myself, but those fields are not on a rezessive way.

so i do NOT see a big/if any intellectual move within the dominican population to completely change the way it is, or something like running towards a revolution or such.
why should they??
compared to a few years back there are todays much more young people studying on the univercities, getting prepared to learn and later on practice a good profession, there are much more dominican citizens travelling, there are much more dominican citizens who own a own vehicle, aso aso aso.
sure there's still a huge amount of poverty everywhere, but there's also a huge piece of population which is not that unhappy with their today's situation compared to a few years back.
i do not see where some powerful and strong direction changing oposition should come up to make a really significan change of power in the DR during the next decades.
and to be honest,
for myself i could actually not see a positive alternative way to run the country better after any kind of revolution(not talking a revolution with guns in hands and tanks on the streets and military overtaking control of course, i guess we are not discussing 3rd world dictatorship tactics here), the powers which are ruling the country since Trujillo is gone and til today's are also needed to keep the country up and let it go forwards.
sure they have their own interests in mind on first place, but part of their own interests is for sure that the biggest part of citizens is 'happy' enough to not start to think about radical changes, that's in their biggest interest,
so they can go on with their own busniness interests and rule the country quietly.

to me it does not look like the powers have an very hard job to do so,
it looks like they do their 'job' very good,
b/c i do not see any kind of opposition/revolution aso coming up.

the changes are controlled by the powers which are,
they will invest more in education, but not too much,
they will better the medical services, even not for everybody,
they will approve more money for loans to purchase small cars even that the one who buy's the car should better not take an other credit for anything,
......

it is the way powers work everywhere in case of those basics.

and by experience change of powers in relatively stable and peaceful countries, specifically under democratic constitutions which get changed frequently like others change their underwear, such changes need generations to get 'prepared/implented in the minds' before they can be done.

i do not see any movement towards such changes.

to the straight answer of Roberts OP Question about
"who are the FOOLS":

easy answer:
"the ones who do not go their way of benefits by the whenever and wherever present system"

Mike

 

[Lambada]

Carving out the future?
Posible pacto Leonel-Danilo comprometer?a elecciones del 2010, 2012 y 2016

 

[ExtremeR]

The real fools are those that do not get at least $500 or a salami out of the whole process.

And that's why ladies and gentleman this country won't get out of this vicious circle, the keyword here is: CLIENTELISM