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dominican chat
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RacerX: thanks for the inspiration, notice my new status line courtesy of robert
Es ok, pero lla tu bas a enbiarme dinero por weter yunio?
helloooo Adrian
Es ok, pero lla tu bas a enbiarme dinero por weter yunio?
Q lo q manin, en q ta? Eta e la forma en q lo Dominicano chateamo por Internet. Chekeen como arreglamo las palabras pa que se lean como sonaria si el Dominicano lo tuviera hablando. La gente puede pensa que uno no sabe ecribi o que no fue al colegio pero eso es mala costumbre que le cojio a uno cuando adolecente mientra uno chateaba en IRC.
No chekiamo.
No chekiamo.
?
? bient?t
Guest
T?guere, llo me acueldo ke a miusicu?n le gutaba un paket?n cuando llo ecrib?a d'esa manera ak? en di-al-ju?n.
Y aora ke menciono a miusicu?n... ke a pasao con ella? En malso del do mil tre, me ecuentro kon ella en el ariopuelto de lasam?rica, en un buelo de Miami, i le enpieso abl? en ingl? como ablan lo de Pakit?n, kon ese asento donde to telmina kon 'mai fren', i la mujel se a dao un suto... ella pens? ke llo era tu sabe kien.
sure
Prefiero usar la compania "Necesitas Trabajar".....
Lack of education, yes, but I feel super smart when I can unmangle some of this Spanish. It's fun.
Prefiero usar la compania "Necesitas Trabajar".....
Lack of education, yes, but I feel super smart when I can unmangle some of this Spanish. It's fun.
And another thing, explain this to me since you have superb grasp of the language.
I encounter 2 situations:
a. A person whose in class exposure is limited has problems understanding the manner I speak Spanish AND his spoken spanish is unintelligible to me(mostly because of slang, colloquialisms and mumbling). Weird to me because among higher educated people(regardless of class) I am well understood and I understand them(I am guessing because of the formality of sticking to rules of grammar as you can manage them). It is like your ability to use Spanish as a global language depends on how many people in the globe you see. I dont understand all British english but I can see Gordon Brown or Crocodile Dundee and understand them(although I dont know what a VeggieMite Sandwich is). I can understand Colombian and Mexican spanish way better than here.
and;
b. I notice that 2nd person singular(I wouldnt even know how to use Castilian 2nd person plural) isnt used. The pronoun, tu, is used for sure, but not the verb conjugation. It is never "estas" "envias" comes, hablas". And not just in spoken but in written also. Now amongst friends I dont see the need to be so formal, its as though we are all Usted but I dont think so.
RacerX-
You have put me to task here. However, I will try to give a response to your question which has many variables but a summary of my opinion may shed some light on your query.
A) It is not quite that simple to determine why some people have a hard time understanding you when you speak but the majority of speakers to whom you speak can understand you with little or no difficulty. You are right to separate the two categories of speakers and listeners meaning those who are less educated have a poorer command of the language and have less exposure to other Spanish speakers and foreigners versus those who are more educated and most likely have a better overall command of Spanish whether or not they speak to other Spanish speakers is irrelevant because their overall command is probably good.
I have not heard you speak so it’s hard to pinpoint what exactly the problem is but my rule of thumb is if people are having a hard time understanding you (even if it’s a small group of speakers) then you still need to improve your speaking skills and refine certain gaps. As much as you may not like to hear it, those people who can’t understand you may be the key to you focusing on where your Spanish needs most improvement. You have to use reverse logic. Those who can understand you even though they may have some difficulty at times understanding what you say (pronunciation) and the way you say it (grammar) still can decipher what you are saying because their command of Spanish is much stronger. If you truly want to bridge the gap next time someone does not understand what you say in Spanish, take a minute and listen to yourself meaning pronunciation and grammar and you may be surprised that you start to notice your own errors much more readily. Even if other people understand you does not mean you are speaking well in most cases. You are getting your point across and they are just bridging the communication gap.
B) First of all let’s establish one important element. The Dominican Republic is ‘tuteo’ country meaning in general people ‘tutear’ which is to address people with the pronoun t? as the norm. Usted is used in specific situations for example as a formality in formal encounters, when addressing elders and strangers but you have to also be careful with using Usted in the DR because some people get offended because you can be implying that they are old or you want to keep some distance with that person. In other Spanish countries Usted prevails even in the family unit.
The problem with the pronoun t? and its usage is because of the colloquial speech patterns of the DR. Keep in mind the basic Spanish grammar pronouns are not required to determine the subject of the sentence (aka ‘the speaker’) because the verb ending indicates that clearly- hablo (I speak), Yo hablo (I speak). There’s no need for ‘yo’ unless you want to emphasize a point or reiterate something. Foreigners tend to overuse pronouns in general in Spanish and this concept of using ‘yo’ excessively is called ‘yoismo’.
The /s/ is dropped by the majority of Dominican speakers therefore the t? form appears nonexistent but in fact it is used all the time. This also accounts for the reason why Dominicans overuse the pronoun because the /s/ is dropped so the usage of t? becomes a determiner of subject/verb clarity and also to distinguish forms of address because by dropping the /s/ from the t? form, the informal t? and formal usted have the same verb form. This is done naturally (instinctively) as a Spanish speaker. For example- in Dominican speech t? dice (no /s/) vs. usted dice (standard) has the same verb form because the /s/ in 't? dices' is dropped by the speaker but to compensate 't?' is an overused pronoun in general as compared to the norm in Spanish. Speakers from other countries who don’t drop the /s/ will say (t?) dices and (usted) dice accordingly and pronoun would be optional and used if speaker chooses to for whatever reason.
You will find Spanish spoken by Mexicans and Colombians a lot easier to understand because of the history (where their colonizers from Spanish originated), education in the New World (during the colonial period) and the impact of other linguistic influences to a higher or lesser degree (for example indigenous languages that existed way before Spanish came to the New World aka Latin America). In essence, to compare Spanish spoken in the DR to that of Mexico or Colombia is comparing two different fruits- apples and oranges. Yes, they are both classified as fruits (the hierarchy) but they branch into different categories (apples vs. oranges) because they come from a different plant.
The Dominican Republic, Mexico and Colombia have a common language- Spanish but they each have their own regional variety which includes different speech patterns as they relate to grammar, regional vocabulary, expressions and colloquial speech (which varies in degrees depending on the 'speaker). ExtremeR and `See you soon's’ (? bient?t- parce qu’il parle fran?ais) posts are examples of the Dominican colloquial speech aka dialect or patois. In my opinion, you can strive to understand it but not to speak it. You as the foreigner should strive to speak a generic brand of the langauge and with no doubt you will acquire hints of some Dominican features of Spanish over time.
-MP.
BTW- I don’t know what a VeggieMite sandwich is either. I have heard of it but that’s about it.
You have put me to task here. However, I will try to give a response to your question which has many variables but a summary of my opinion may shed some light on your query.
A) It is not quite that simple to determine why some people have a hard time understanding you when you speak but the majority of speakers to whom you speak can understand you with little or no difficulty. You are right to separate the two categories of speakers and listeners meaning those who are less educated have a poorer command of the language and have less exposure to other Spanish speakers and foreigners versus those who are more educated and most likely have a better overall command of Spanish whether or not they speak to other Spanish speakers is irrelevant because their overall command is probably good.
I have not heard you speak so it’s hard to pinpoint what exactly the problem is but my rule of thumb is if people are having a hard time understanding you (even if it’s a small group of speakers) then you still need to improve your speaking skills and refine certain gaps. As much as you may not like to hear it, those people who can’t understand you may be the key to you focusing on where your Spanish needs most improvement. You have to use reverse logic. Those who can understand you even though they may have some difficulty at times understanding what you say (pronunciation) and the way you say it (grammar) still can decipher what you are saying because their command of Spanish is much stronger. If you truly want to bridge the gap next time someone does not understand what you say in Spanish, take a minute and listen to yourself meaning pronunciation and grammar and you may be surprised that you start to notice your own errors much more readily. Even if other people understand you does not mean you are speaking well in most cases. You are getting your point across and they are just bridging the communication gap.
B) First of all let’s establish one important element. The Dominican Republic is ‘tuteo’ country meaning in general people ‘tutear’ which is to address people with the pronoun t? as the norm. Usted is used in specific situations for example as a formality in formal encounters, when addressing elders and strangers but you have to also be careful with using Usted in the DR because some people get offended because you can be implying that they are old or you want to keep some distance with that person. In other Spanish countries Usted prevails even in the family unit.
The problem with the pronoun t? and its usage is because of the colloquial speech patterns of the DR. Keep in mind the basic Spanish grammar pronouns are not required to determine the subject of the sentence (aka ‘the speaker’) because the verb ending indicates that clearly- hablo (I speak), Yo hablo (I speak). There’s no need for ‘yo’ unless you want to emphasize a point or reiterate something. Foreigners tend to overuse pronouns in general in Spanish and this concept of using ‘yo’ excessively is called ‘yoismo’.
The /s/ is dropped by the majority of Dominican speakers therefore the t? form appears nonexistent but in fact it is used all the time. This also accounts for the reason why Dominicans overuse the pronoun because the /s/ is dropped so the usage of t? becomes a determiner of subject/verb clarity and also to distinguish forms of address because by dropping the /s/ from the t? form, the informal t? and formal usted have the same verb form. This is done naturally (instinctively) as a Spanish speaker. For example- in Dominican speech t? dice (no /s/) vs. usted dice (standard) has the same verb form because the /s/ in 't? dices' is dropped by the speaker but to compensate 't?' is an overused pronoun in general as compared to the norm in Spanish. Speakers from other countries who don’t drop the /s/ will say (t?) dices and (usted) dice accordingly and pronoun would be optional and used if speaker chooses to for whatever reason.
You will find Spanish spoken by Mexicans and Colombians a lot easier to understand because of the history (where their colonizers from Spanish originated), education in the New World (during the colonial period) and the impact of other linguistic influences to a higher or lesser degree (for example indigenous languages that existed way before Spanish came to the New World aka Latin America). In essence, to compare Spanish spoken in the DR to that of Mexico or Colombia is comparing two different fruits- apples and oranges. Yes, they are both classified as fruits (the hierarchy) but they branch into different categories (apples vs. oranges) because they come from a different plant.
The Dominican Republic, Mexico and Colombia have a common language- Spanish but they each have their own regional variety which includes different speech patterns as they relate to grammar, regional vocabulary, expressions and colloquial speech (which varies in degrees depending on the 'speaker). ExtremeR and `See you soon's’ (? bient?t- parce qu’il parle fran?ais
) posts are examples of the Dominican colloquial speech aka dialect or patois. In my opinion, you can strive to understand it but not to speak it. You as the foreigner should strive to speak a generic brand of the langauge and with no doubt you will acquire hints of some Dominican features of Spanish over time.-MP.
BTW- I don’t know what a VeggieMite sandwich is either. I have heard of it but that’s about it.
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Prefiero usar la compania "Necesitas Trabajar".....
Ake hora me pone el dinero ma ana si no melo manda obidale yo bucare la forma de bucarlo.
Man, I disagree with almost everything you wrote. For instance:
A. Real example, I had a woman from Av. Yapur Dumit to meet me centro ciudad en Santiago one night, and since it was late she brought her friend. Now, there we are the 3 of us just talking. But a problem has arisen, in that the woman cannot understand me. I am having a face to face conversation with her and she cannot understand me. Simple conversation "Where are you from? Do you have any kids, etc". But her friend, equally attractive albeit much thinner can understand me without regard. It gets to the point where basically I am having a conversation with her friend and her friend is taking time out to translate to a woman whom I am sitting right next to in a language that we are all speaking. Now I have to give them names to avoid confusion. Lets call the woman I was to see, Benita and her friend, Annie. I drew a conclusion about education and the ability to cerebrally manage different ways of understanding spanish based on the fact that Annie works in a large supermarket in Santiago and Benita, may possibly, could have a job as a dental something or other. So Annie is surrounded by other Dominicans who have been other places and have learned and internalized rules of language. Who the hell knows what Benita does? I m serious, do you know how foolish it looks to have a conversation with someone in spanish seated next to a person only to have the person on the other side of the table translate the conversation into spanish to the person whom you are sitting next to? And knowing that 1. I dont know every word in the language but, 2. I have way more than a rudimentary grasp of the language. I mean, I m not no Julio Iglesias but I aint no Erik Estrada neither. I drew the conclusion that the woman was stupid. And it defeats the point of going out further if you cannot understand me, why waste 3 hours? Why not ask the friend, Annie to go out? It has been my experience that it is not the manner that I speak it is the education of the recipient of the conversation. When I was married, my mother in law would speak to me and I would never understand her because she would talk in that Jarabacoa hillbilly way(you know, where you mumble everything), and she didnt understand me because her ears were attuned to listen to Jarabacoa hillbilly spanish language. I remember one time wasting 10 minutes asking her for some damn soda. Apparently refresco isnt the word to use in Jarabacoa. Now her brother, Daniel(and mind you were talking about 70 year old people here, so RIP Tio Daniel) could always understand me(as I he) because he had been around, sons in the US and Europe(and this was in 1999-2000 around that time). He had spoken so clearly to my ear that I liked talking to him about the olden days(the olden Dominican days).
B. I dont think there is an excessive foreign overuse of "Yo". I think it is a rational use. In english you have to use Yo because honestly most verbs are only conjugated 1 or 2 ways, in plural or singular, in 1,2 or 3rd person. Example: hacer-to do, to make, to become. Apart from to do, the verb is the same form in all contexts in its respective state of conjugation.
You say to me "Made a sandwich. Did my laundry. Became tired. Went to sleep at 9" Now if I ask what did you do? This answer is generally acceptable, but specifically it is confusing because they are all fragments with out the pronoun. "I made a sandwich. She did my laundry. You became tired. We went to sleep at 9". You walk into a room full of people and say "...drove around....took out the garbage...killed a goat." People will look at you crazy. Without the pronoun, who did what?
C. I think the cadence of the language is related to the indigenous development of the music of the culture. In Mexico and Colombia, traditional forms of music are slower in time and composition and in the Caribbean they are fast and rhythmic. And I speculate that people develop their speech patterns close to these time signatures. But then again, in the Caribbean all the music was Afrocentric in origin whereas in the Americas it was a mixture of aboriginal and afrocentric elements depending on region. Also the obligatory use of the percussive instruments in the formulation of the regional music culture in the Caribbean may have made the language move faster in speech and intonation than others in the Americas.
Norteno and Tejano are slower songs even with the same beat count as disco records, so Mexicans speak slower. Cumbia, likewise. Versus Merengue y Guaguacao are really fast songs so the people talk faster. Same in the US, with down home Blues and traditional country, where the guy sung slow and the people talked slow. When the musicians moved north, the language was faster and (chicken or egg) the music got faster(ie. Chicago v. Satchagouli, Mississippi or back in the Carolina woods vs. NY).
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So then we will agree to disagree....
You asked for my opinion, I gave it and I stand by it. I think you really still have a long way to go in Spanish. I can clearly see that by the responses that you have written in Spanish on the board and this one here. You really need to reassess your level and the way you speak and accept what is not going right for you and work on it. When you are learning a language you should work on fixing your gaps so you can be fluent and understood. You are the one trying to learn Spanish not the other speakers regardless of their quality of Spanish.
In English, the subject pronouns are mandatory for verb conjugation whereas in Spanish they are not. You can say 'hablo' or 'Yo hablo' whereas in English you have to say 'I speak' and not just 'speak' to have the equivalent meaning. That's why English speakers use pronouns a lot in Spanish because they are translating especially at the beginning of the learning process.
Your point C does not appear to be researched at all but you are entitled to your theory but I have never read any credible linguistic research on that but who knows.
I get feeling you like to disagree with many issues if they don't fall in your favour. However, I will tell you this about languages some concepts can be debated and some can not. When I see people arguing clear linguistic logic I leave the discussion because it no longer has value.
I will leave this here because if you disagree then there is nothing else for me to say on the subject matter.
-MP.
You asked for my opinion, I gave it and I stand by it. I think you really still have a long way to go in Spanish. I can clearly see that by the responses that you have written in Spanish on the board and this one here. You really need to reassess your level and the way you speak and accept what is not going right for you and work on it. When you are learning a language you should work on fixing your gaps so you can be fluent and understood. You are the one trying to learn Spanish not the other speakers regardless of their quality of Spanish.
In English, the subject pronouns are mandatory for verb conjugation whereas in Spanish they are not. You can say 'hablo' or 'Yo hablo' whereas in English you have to say 'I speak' and not just 'speak' to have the equivalent meaning. That's why English speakers use pronouns a lot in Spanish because they are translating especially at the beginning of the learning process.
Your point C does not appear to be researched at all but you are entitled to your theory but I have never read any credible linguistic research on that but who knows.
I get feeling you like to disagree with many issues if they don't fall in your favour. However, I will tell you this about languages some concepts can be debated and some can not. When I see people arguing clear linguistic logic I leave the discussion because it no longer has value.
I will leave this here because if you disagree then there is nothing else for me to say on the subject matter.
-MP.
I disagree.
I am convinced I know Spanish. I have not mastered it, but then again I have not mastered English but I am formidable in it.
I am convinced that the deficiencies in understanding are internally in the recipient of the conversation I am having.
I dont think you could draw a viable conclusion based on never hearing me speak Spanish. Sort of a blind draw, isnt it? You cannot stand by an opinion not drawn off actual "on the ground" facts.
Majority rules. If you speak to people all day in Espanol from wherever they also have a spanish tongue and they have no problem understanding you then really it cant be you. You must be adept at something because there you are having a conversation beyond pleasantries. If in your travels you encounter 2 or 3 who cannot comprehend, they have a brain problem. And for the record, novelas and espectaculos de chisme dont help.
I disagree with many of your issues because I have a countering opinion(which I personally think is better, but thats open to interpretation and discussion, that was the reason for the questions). I dont think your opinions are stupid or asinine. Just not along the theories I have formulated. I think when it comes to language EVERYTHING can be debated, especially if it is a living one. Because EVERYTHING is open to interpretation. Outside of its point of origin, every language is bound to be adapted in its new environment(or bastardized according to the original source). Now if we were discussing a DEAD language then there would have to be boundaries. But of course Dead Languages dont travel.
In english the pronoun isnt necessary for verb conjugation, because most verbs dont change from the gerund. The pronoun is needed because without it your sentences are incomplete, they are fragments because there is no subject to assign the verb to. "...went to the racetrack." Who? "...left the door open" Who? The verb is Ir: To go. And in every state(tense) it is the same: went, left, go. It never changes, regardless of 1,2,3rd person, singular or plural. THAT is why you need to use the pronouns in English. And when you speak it as your first language, it becomes the way you use all other languages. I m not sure of a verb you could use in the first person in French without "Je". Just as when people who speak Spanish as a original tongue use "que lo que" in every sentence when one "que" would do in english. Or even the existence of reflexive verbs where not only do you conjugate the verb into the referential subject BUT you must also use another pronoun to specify to whom you are referring.
And how do you know Point C isnt researched? You need to see a bibliography? And from what point would you start? Anthropological Music theory? New World Linguistics? And from what point IN TIME would you start? Music is a language in and of itself, which becomes further complicated(and to me, cosmic) when you insert spoken and written languages and particular history of differing cultures.
Would you stop acting like you re the only guy with a dictionary.
And to close I d like to refer to that 90 year old woman I met in Christopher Square Park in 1999 who taught herself French and Italian. She said if you worry too much about the rigidity of following grammatical rules you ll never learn the language, you will only learn the rules.
I am convinced I know Spanish. I have not mastered it, but then again I have not mastered English but I am formidable in it.
I am convinced that the deficiencies in understanding are internally in the recipient of the conversation I am having.
I dont think you could draw a viable conclusion based on never hearing me speak Spanish. Sort of a blind draw, isnt it? You cannot stand by an opinion not drawn off actual "on the ground" facts.
Majority rules. If you speak to people all day in Espanol from wherever they also have a spanish tongue and they have no problem understanding you then really it cant be you. You must be adept at something because there you are having a conversation beyond pleasantries. If in your travels you encounter 2 or 3 who cannot comprehend, they have a brain problem. And for the record, novelas and espectaculos de chisme dont help.
I disagree with many of your issues because I have a countering opinion(which I personally think is better, but thats open to interpretation and discussion, that was the reason for the questions). I dont think your opinions are stupid or asinine. Just not along the theories I have formulated. I think when it comes to language EVERYTHING can be debated, especially if it is a living one. Because EVERYTHING is open to interpretation. Outside of its point of origin, every language is bound to be adapted in its new environment(or bastardized according to the original source). Now if we were discussing a DEAD language then there would have to be boundaries. But of course Dead Languages dont travel.
In english the pronoun isnt necessary for verb conjugation, because most verbs dont change from the gerund. The pronoun is needed because without it your sentences are incomplete, they are fragments because there is no subject to assign the verb to. "...went to the racetrack." Who? "...left the door open" Who? The verb is Ir: To go. And in every state(tense) it is the same: went, left, go. It never changes, regardless of 1,2,3rd person, singular or plural. THAT is why you need to use the pronouns in English. And when you speak it as your first language, it becomes the way you use all other languages. I m not sure of a verb you could use in the first person in French without "Je". Just as when people who speak Spanish as a original tongue use "que lo que" in every sentence when one "que" would do in english. Or even the existence of reflexive verbs where not only do you conjugate the verb into the referential subject BUT you must also use another pronoun to specify to whom you are referring.
And how do you know Point C isnt researched? You need to see a bibliography? And from what point would you start? Anthropological Music theory? New World Linguistics? And from what point IN TIME would you start? Music is a language in and of itself, which becomes further complicated(and to me, cosmic) when you insert spoken and written languages and particular history of differing cultures.
Would you stop acting like you re the only guy with a dictionary.
And to close I d like to refer to that 90 year old woman I met in Christopher Square Park in 1999 who taught herself French and Italian. She said if you worry too much about the rigidity of following grammatical rules you ll never learn the language, you will only learn the rules.
RacerX, you're right, but also so is Marianopolita.
I don't have a lot of interest in talking spanish with people who don't understand me, although my level is pretty decent by now.
However if you want to debug your spanish faster, as Marianopolita says, when the dumb-asses can't understand you, thats where the issues lie. i'm not sure how that would work in real life though.
I don't have a lot of interest in talking spanish with people who don't understand me, although my level is pretty decent by now.
However if you want to debug your spanish faster, as Marianopolita says, when the dumb-asses can't understand you, thats where the issues lie. i'm not sure how that would work in real life though.
?
? bient?t
Guest
I actually enjoy reading Marianopolita's very informative posts - the longer they are, the more information provided.
It works out pretty easy. If the places you go are populated by Spanish speakers from all over and you converse AND are understood then you win. For me it goes:
a. hanging out in Taxco de Alarcon, Guerrero, Mexico. Man, I love Acapulco, all of those pretty brown Mexican women with the nice butts. Although I almost got on the wrong bus to go back to DF for my flight.
b. hanging out in Los Angeles, Ca. and then trying my "Midnight Cowboy" pimp routine at the Greyhound Bus Depot in East LA. Or trying to get an apartment on Alvarado St.(where someone left the cake out in the rain). Or in "Koreatown" where Koreans didnt live, only Centro-americans.
Oh, and then being the talk of the town when they had an merengue band come from Canada to throw a concert at the ARCO(Atlantic Richfield Oil Corp. nka BP)concourse, downtown LA. Because the audience didnt know the music, they didnt know how to dance to it.
BTW, uhmmm, they never heard of Santo Domingo nor the Dominican Republic. Every woman I met, told me she was Puerto Rican, and from San Juan specifically, when this music was playing.
And others assumed DR was like Mexico with loud colorful murals, spicy foods and guys wearing sombreros and ponchos.
c. hanging out with curvy Mexicana babes in Phoenix, Arizona.
d. Lived in Hialeah, super Cuban town to be closer to my people only to find out that all these guys are lazy, loud mouth, pasty-faced drunks. I mean, seriously? 9am and the liquor store has a line outside the door?
e. Of course, NYC.
I do a lot of hanging out, as you can tell.
But if ALL of these people come from different places and I can talk to them, coherently, it aint me. If I talk to a thousand people in 12 years and 2 or 3 cant understand me, it cant be me. It must be the cerebral dumbassedness.
Mon cher A bientot....
I do too, I love langugages myself and speak a couple.
I was just joking
I do too, I love langugages myself and speak a couple.
I was just joking
- Status