Dominican "intolerance" issues??

SH6811

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Hi,

I have a question I'd like to throw out to people because I'm curious to get responses. I've been here in the DR for a couple of months now and for the past few days I've been thinking a lot about this...

I'm from the US. We all know how Dominicans are very friendly, out-going, talkative, and gregarious people. Now myself, that is not me...I'm a reserved person and don't like to talk very much or express public feeling and emotion. I tend to follow (and believe) in the "speak only when spoken to" rule. In the US this is no big deal...people there simply know that everybody is different and has "got their thing" and nobody really cares if you are outgoing or not.

In the DR I'm finding this is not the case with Dominicans, actually they seem to have something of a problem with people who are not like them, even in cases where the person (like me) is obviously not a Dominican but from another country. To be honest they seem to be quite "intolerant" and have some difficulty relating to people of different attitudes and social customs. It's like they just don't understand and reject what they don't want to understand and/or deal with. I may be wrong (hence this post). I'm looking for opinions about this from folks on this forum, that includes not only foreigners living in and/or familiar with the DR but hopefully some Dominicans may respond as well.

BTW: I have made friends here among Dominicans and I find it is much easier to do so than in my country...but as I mentioned I've been thinking a lot about this lately...thanks in advance for thoughts.
 

Chirimoya

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Give some specific examples - it may be that you have encountered particularly closed-minded people (there is an island mentality here, for obvious reasons) or that you're even being somewhat intolerant yourself, especially as after a couple of months in a new country people tend to enter the second (rejection) phase of culture shock. I know - I've been there.

A lot of people will say 'when in Rome' but there is a point where one's own individual personality traits, beliefs, customs need to be respected as well. IMHO of course.
 

SH6811

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Thanks for the reply,

I don't believe I have my own intolerance issues...I'm the kinda person who respects that everybody is different and has their own beliefs/attitudes/likes/dislikes...etc...what I don't understand is why this attitude seems to be lacking among the Dominicans? As I stated before, this is no biggie deal in the US. Obviously I'm the same person here (in the DR) as I am in the states or anyplace else...this is why I'm under the impression it's got something to do with Dominican beliefs or attitudes.

Also I don't feel I'm in a "rejection" phase since I do like and enjoy this country and its people in general, I have no real wish to get back to my country...

Examples? Well here's something that seems VERY common--I get this all the time. I may be sitting a place somewhere (a bar or restaurant or whatever) just say watching TV and relaxing, and (as I mentioned) I usually keep to myself mostly, unless somebody comes over and starts to talk to me. I normally don't solicit conversation with others. I also don't show a lot of expression or emotion. I can usually bet a few pesos within a short period of time a Dominican will come over to me and say something like "is something wrong??" "are you sad?" "is there a problem??" They say things like "estas triste?" or "que problema?" and they usually aren't real friendly when they say these things (tone of voice, body expression). I try to explain to them that there is nothing wrong, I'm simply like that all the time, and since I'm not Dominican I think they should understand...however they don't seem to...
 

Chirimoya

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Well, Latins as a rule are not that familiar with the concepts of 'personal space' or the desire for silence or solitude. If you are in the company of people you know, it's mistaken for anti-social behaviour, or gives the impression something is wrong. People are usually motivated by concern, although if the people approaching you in an aggressive manner as you seem to be describing are strangers, that in itself is plain anti-social behaviour by any nation's standards. Could they just be hustlers trying it on with the gringo?
 

NALs

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SH6811 said:
Thanks for the reply,

I don't believe I have my own intolerance issues...I'm the kinda person who respects that everybody is different and has their own beliefs/attitudes/likes/dislikes...etc...what I don't understand is why this attitude seems to be lacking among the Dominicans? As I stated before, this is no biggie deal in the US. Obviously I'm the same person here (in the DR) as I am in the states or anyplace else...this is why I'm under the impression it's got something to do with Dominican beliefs or attitudes.

Also I don't feel I'm in a "rejection" phase since I do like and enjoy this country and its people in general, I have no real wish to get back to my country...

Examples? Well here's something that seems VERY common--I get this all the time. I may be sitting a place somewhere (a bar or restaurant or whatever) just say watching TV and relaxing, and (as I mentioned) I usually keep to myself mostly, unless somebody comes over and starts to talk to me. I normally don't solicit conversation with others. I also don't show a lot of expression or emotion. I can usually bet a few pesos within a short period of time a Dominican will come over to me and say something like "is something wrong??" "are you sad?" "is there a problem??" They say things like "estas triste?" or "que problema?" and they usually aren't real friendly when they say these things (tone of voice, body expression). I try to explain to them that there is nothing wrong, I'm simply like that all the time, and since I'm not Dominican I think they should understand...however they don't seem to...
From a Dominican prospective, let me tell you that it's a coin with two sides.

On one side it could be just like you describe it, (ie. people approaching you asking if you are "ok" in an unfriendly manner, which begs the question why would they bother asking you such caring question if they are going to be unfriendly) or it could be the complete opposite where your action (or lack of such) is seen as an anti-social act and the people approach you out of concern and you accept such approaches as intrusive to your privacy.

Which one is true? Only you know that, but you need to understand that pluralistic societies work a little different from individualistic one's. If your way of being is being perceived as anti-social, you will catch the attention of the people around you and the most concerned for you will most likely approach you and ask you if you are ok.

The assumption that they are saying such in an anti-social manner could be just a personal perception by yourself that may not be in conjunction with the real purpose of the person asking you such question. If I were you, I would answer positively towards the question (ie. say you are having trouble understanding why your way of being is not being accepted by Dominican society). Do this to see if the person is really genuine or if he/she is being anti-social, albeit it does not makes sense a person will be anti-social while asking such a caring question such as "are you ok" to a complete stranger.

Remember, we all find what we want in this world and we all see what we want to see. If there is a certain dilemma unfolding in the middle of a street between two individuals and 50 people are watching this, if you were to ask all 50 people what happened you will get 50 unique perspectives. You will notice that all agree there was a dilemma, but why or how the dilemma came to be will be interpreted differently by all 50 people. This is more so if you were to ask all 50 people individually where none of the 50 people could hear and/or be influenced by the opinion of the other 49. What's the point of this example?

Often times we see things that are there, that are partially there, or that were never there to begin with. Why? Because we all have our story to tell, our unique perspective of life shaped by our own education, experiences, and ability to perceive what's occuring in our sorrounding through the filter of our own unique life experiences.

It could very well be that all those Dominicans are being anti-social or intolerant towards you or it could be vice versa or a misunderstanding from both parts.

I suggest for you to further elaborate this with those Dominicans that do approach you out of concern and see if its a genuine concern or not. Via DR1 you will get many good suggestions, but only through such personal process will you get the answer you are yearning for.

I hope this helps.

-NALs
 

SH6811

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Thanks again for replies,

Actually this seems to happen only with strangers. My friends understand I am "tranquillo" or at least they seem to and it doesn't seem to bother them. That is usually how I'll respond to an inquiry from a stranger who wants to know "que problema?" however it may be I can't explain it well enough in Spanish (it's hard in English).

That point about this being a pluralistic society and Latins not having "personal space" concepts is well-made, I hadn't thought of that...I'm definitely an "individualistic" person...

The part about the hustle is probably true to a certain extent (everybody here has got some sort of hustle). However at this point it seems I don't get as much of that as before because they know it won't work with me. However often times the girls down here will try to make some pesos with their hustles and when I don't respond (and don't like them touching me) they get angry...I don't understand that.

Again, in the US this is NEVER an issue. In the US nobody would ever approach me and ask me questions like if things are OK...maybe it's because Americans don't care if you are or not and Dominicans do (that's a compliment to Dominicans) however the fact that it happens so often makes me wonder why they just can't accept (or understand) that not eveybody is like them...but as I mentioned before it often is done in a manner that indicates they are irritated, not necessarily concerned...

It's not that I consider them being intrusive, asking me questions is perfectly fine and legit, I don't mind that at all. It's more the fact that I am who I am and they don't accept that, it's like they want me to change and conform and be more like them (similar to Japanese conformity issues).

Maybe it's simply that I don't understand why Dominicans would show concern for somebody in that way and I'm confused by it (the American attitude is getting in my way perhaps :rolleyes: )
 

ExtremeR

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SH8611, i'm a Dominican living in DR and looking at your situation of my point of view, I think you are a victim of the called "Machismo" that characterize the Dominican culture. "We" simply cannot accept a male guy beeing shy or reserved cause that shows signs of weakness and "palomeria"(in the dominican male population). "We" just assume that a guy with your caractheristics is inferior to us and they feel they have the right to bother with that person without beeing replied. But watching at your example i dont think those guys were trying to mess with you, Dominicans have some weird forms to cheer somebody up and specially when that person is a foreigner. Excuse me my bad english but i think i could have been of help in this case that I know and live every day (I used to be one of those closed minded guys messing with shy ones)
 

SH6811

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thanks for the message ExtremeR,

I'm a bit familiar with "Machismo" however I didn't know that it would include reserved/quiet people as being "inferior"--thanks for that information. That actually may be part of my confusion, if that is the case it certainly would explain a bit as to why they would show such concern and seem irritated by my actions...however many times it is not men doing this, but women...would it be any different? (obviously they are familiar with Machismo concpts as well)...

It also wouldn't however address my question about why they have the attitude to begin with since I'm not Dominican the "Machismo" concept doesn't even apply to me, they know (or should know) that.
 

ExtremeR

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SH6811, Dominicans womans are the most "machistas" womens i have ever seen. They simply love beeing treated by a man who shows how "brave" and "machist" he is, although they will tell you the contrary ("they love sweet guys and stuff") so thats why you get that attitude from both men and women. They simply arent used to see shy/quiet guys without judging them(thinking that you are scared of something or have some problem).

Concerning your second question, it is true you aren't a Dominican but remember that those guys doesnt know any other culture, so they generalize every man in the world as the same as them. Im sure you dont get that from Dominicans living outside the country.
 

SH6811

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thanks again,

Good info, it goes a bit into explaining some of the reasons I'm seeing the things I'm seeing. It does surprise me a bit, for me I've always thought the whole "reserved" attitude thing always adds to "machismo" (in the US it does anyway) so it's interesting for me to see that Dominicans think the opposite.

The second point you make also interests me, I thought before a Dominican man would see a foreign man and not apply the same concept of machismo to him (as would happen in many other cultures where the foreigner "doesn't count" or is always treated differently than a local)...it makes sense to me the machismo attitude is all they know, however I figured those things apply only to Dominicans and they would simply ignore the "rules" with foreigners because they don't know much of the foreigners country and culture. That explains much of my frustration and confusion...gracias.
 

NALs

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SH6811 said:
In the US nobody would ever approach me and ask me questions like if things are OK...maybe it's because Americans don't care if you are or not and Dominicans do (that's a compliment to Dominicans) however the fact that it happens so often makes me wonder why they just can't accept (or understand) that not eveybody is like them...but as I mentioned before it often is done in a manner that indicates they are irritated, not necessarily concerned...

It's not that I consider them being intrusive, asking me questions is perfectly fine and legit, I don't mind that at all. It's more the fact that I am who I am and they don't accept that, it's like they want me to change and conform and be more like them (similar to Japanese conformity issues).

Maybe it's simply that I don't understand why Dominicans would show concern for somebody in that way and I'm confused by it (the American attitude is getting in my way perhaps :rolleyes: )
I think you answered your own question in the last paragraph.

You mentioned that it only happens with strangers and it makes sense, because if a person knows who and how you are, then they would respect you for who you are.

However, if a person doesn't know who or how you are, they will be inclined to help if they see something that appears anti-social. With your case, I think you are extending your own confusion as to why Dominicans don't accept you for who you are to all Dominicans.

This is normal, often times people make the assumption that something we tell one person will automatically be understood and heared by all the people.

The reality is that while Jose may come to you and ask you if you are ok, Josefina will come up to you later and ask the same question, as well as Bernardo, and Eugenio, and Miguelina so on and so forth, not because they don't accept you for who you are, but rather because Josefina was not aware that Jose asked you the same question and thus, she could not had the slightest idea that being quiet and reserved is how you are as opposed to being in a troubled situation.

Take my motto: Don't worry about things you can't control because you can't control them, so why bother.

Worry about the things you can control. However, since the things you can control are already in your control, you really have nothing to worry about. :cheeky: ;)

Relax, be glad people are at the very least noticing you, it's a much better feeling than being unnoticed. :bunny:

-NALs
 

AZB

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why can't you pretent to be happy? You live in paradise, in warm climate among friendly people so why this solitary attitude? I simply can't stand boring, unhappy looking people around me. If you were sitting among my group, I would certainly try to make you laugh. Why do you think people believe laughing is the best medicine?
AZB
 

NALs

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AZB said:
why can't you pretent to be happy? You live in paradise, in warm climate among friendly people so why this solitary attitude? I simply can't stand boring, unhappy looking people around me. If you were sitting among my group, I would certainly try to make you laugh. Why do you think people believe laughing is the best medicine?
AZB
SH, take AZB's prescription. He's a doctor.;)

-NALs
 

SH6811

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Thanks to all again,

AZB, as to why I can't "pretend"...well it's rather simple...I am who I am and that is just fine for me. You're correct, I'm in paradise and I AM HAPPY, I just don't express it like most others (Dominican or otherwise). I can't change who I am and have no desire to and (in my country) have never needed to.

For example one night I may go out for dinner, after that have some drinks, it's a perfect and warm night out, I have some money in my pocket, and plenty of attention from chicas (if that is what I want)...thus it's not possible to NOT be happy--I have everything a guy needs, right? However then I get frustrated because Jose, Maribel, Islande, Ramon, and Isabel keep coming over all night and asking me what the problem is...

You say (as do many Dominicans) you can't stand "boring, unhappy people" around you--and that is fine, that is how you are...but that leads to my original point, Dominicans have difficulty accepting the concept that there are people in the World who enjoy quiet, peace and solitude (at least once and a while) MORE than they enjoy being around many people who are talking, joking, being animated, etc...because that is how THEY are.

As I mentioned before everybody has "got their own thing" and what works for them is perfectly acceptable (as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others). So that is what led me to thinking and make my first post, why is it that Dominicans just seem to have that concept go right over their heads...? Some people have posted here that Dominicans have concern if they think somebody is unhappy, sad, or "needs a laugh" as you put it, it's like it never occurs to them that the person may be perfectly content and happy and so forth (even if that person isn't Dominican and thus has different social attitudes and values anyway). Remember everybody always does what is good for them and "rolls the way they roll"...Dominicans seem to transfer their own attitudes and social customs on others (for example see the post above about Dominicans applying "Machismo" concepts to people who are from countries that don't even have a "Machismo" concept...)

Once again, I've made (Dominican) friends here and continue to do so, it just surprises me that the same thing keeps happening time and time again for no other reason other than that Dominicans are not understanding (or even trying to understand) that people from other places are not Dominican...
 

macocael

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It takes time to learn how to negotiate between the dictates of your personality and the culture that formed you on the one hand, and the dictates of the culture or society you now find yourself in on the other -- here, you are right, as many have just observed, a loner, a quiet or reserved person who likes his "personal space," is considered an oddity and frankly most Dominicans -- except for your friends who know you and through that friendship come to understand you -- will not know how to deal with that. Here, personal space hardly exists. For one thing,, there is traditional Latin cari?o -- people here are always touching, caressing, hugging, even when they dont know each other well. That is one reason the gripe spreads so quickly! For another, except for the upper classes, the people live "muy apretado" -- close together, not to say on top of one another, so they learn to expect that one is hardly ever alone. And sociality is one of the highest values here: it has its good side. You could be lost up in the loma somewhere, knock on some door, and immediately be accepted into the household, fed and cared for. Hospitality is highly valued here. Also, people go out of their way to avoid confrontation, so amiability is also highly prized. If you are not amiable -- physically expressive, smiling, quick with a joke or a friendly line, people will think you odd or even offensive,because these are the reigning social values here. You experience no problem in the States because the reigning values there revolve around respecting personal space, being more withdrawn, less sociable in a demonstrative way, etc. Believe me, the average American on his home turf is probably not going to like when the Dominican he is talking to suddenly starts caressing his leg while they converse, or holding his hand -- The Americans would be offended and would consider the Dominican behavior odd -- but down here that happens without any connotation of buggery. The difference can be disconcerting for a gringo, it certainly was for me, initially, but I got used to it, and actually I prefer what we have here, though I have to find other ways to satisfy my need for solitude from time to time. YOu cannot really escape yourself, so you need to find ways to compromise between all these demands.

I remember two incidents that impressed me in relation to this: the first was when I was down and out with a bad case of gripe, and everyone kept coming to the house to socialize with me as though all were normal, entering the bedroom, sitting on the bed with me, yakking away. I was really put out, because when I am sick like that I just want to crawl away into some hole. But I got used to it and it doesnt bother me now.

Second odd moment for me was attending the funeral of a newborn baby, the mother hysterically crying in the bedroom, and everyone filing through the bedroom to greet and console her! I mean everyone. I just felt odd that I should disturb her private grief, but in fact it wasnt a disturbance at all and was considered by everyone there a salutary thing. different strokes. And each works in its own way.
 

drbill

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difference doesn't equal intolerance

Macocael, that was a pleasure to read- just so.

drbill
 

SH6811

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Hi macocael,

Thanks for the post. I agree with you. I'd like to comment on that point you mentioned about an American (in the US) who meets a Dominican and suddenly ends up in an unfamiliar situation (the touching part). The main difference (in my opinion) is that the American (believe it or not) will actually in all likelihood be more willing to "let it slide..." when confronted by an unusual (or even offensive) situation from a foreigner.

For example what I mean is suppose there's a foreigner in the US, say this person is from someplace very unfamilar to an American (not uncommon, people from all over the world in the US). Now this foreigner may dress differently, speak a different language, and has different social values, mores, and customs from Americans. Now suppose this foreign person does or says something to an American that the American doesn't understand, or perhaps even is offended by...what will often happen in this situation?

In all likelihood that American, although offended and not understanding of the foreigners actions, will simply say to him/herself something like "well that person is from another country and doesn't know our ways, I'm sure in that persons country what they did was entirely normal and acceptable...". The worst thing that might happen is that the American may try to explain the situation to the foreigner so they understand what they did isn't normally acceptable...the point is the American (many anyway) will "cut them some slack" and not project his/her customs onto the foreigner. They typically would not simply think the foreigner was "odd" or "anti-social" or strange in some way. Does this happen in the DR?, apparently not. I find that strange considering Dominicans are normally so friendly and personable that it doesn't seem to enter into their heads that the world is a big place with many different cultures and people, and the overwhelming majority are not Dominican (or American for that matter).

You ended your post with "different strokes. And each works in its own way"--exactly, so why is it the Dominicans are lacking this understanding? (And thus the reason for my first post, I certainly know much more now than from my original post anyway). Thanks to all.
 

SH6811

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drbill,

Correct...difference doesn't equal intolerance. However simply projecting one's own values and customs onto others without taking into consideration factors such as personal preference, geographical, religious, social, cultural, and other differences certainly CAN be considered intolerant. That is the reason I named the post with the question marks (??)...
 

drbill

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hi, SH-
macocael's response just rang so true on a personal level, I had to comment... no criticism intended. I feel for the poor immigrant SOB trying to integrate into modern American society... we must seem soooo strange.

I think that the Dominicans feel free to project their values and customs onto others because they feel entitled to, this being their country.
 
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AZB

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I think the poster doesn't want a solution, he is simply expressing his frustration with the people around him. Maybe he wants to change the thinking of this whole island around him to so he could stay the same. The problem is that he is the one complaing not the people around him. They simply want to make him feel better because he gives out the aura or impression that he is depressed. Mind you, this is a very negative aura that the poster is projecting towards other people. If he wants a solution to his problem, then he should do 2 things: 1. pretent to be happy and this will fool everyone around him, thus no more silly questions from anyone.
2. Get away from resort area where chicas stick to you like bees on a pile of ----. Come to capital or santiago, I promise, no one will notice you, even if you stick a 100 dollar bill out of your pocket. To get chica's attention, you will actually have to talk to them with a smile. See how simple the solution to your problems? Oh wait, sorry, I forgot, you aren't looking for a solution. My bad.
Have a nice day.
AZB