Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

Yeah, there's some rotten apples when it comes to development work. Just there to skim the cream and make money, hiding it in a veil of good will and fancy words. Urgh. (Of course there is plenty of organisations doing genuinely good work).

As for Haiti, I agree with both Dee and Natasha and Tom: The DR government really has to do its share to get things back on track. Instead hatred of Haitians has been nurtured, especially leading up to the election - always a popular way to get votes:-(

It will harm the DR and the chances of getting outside help. Several governments put emphasis towards observations made by for instance Amnesty International - they have high credibility - and AI is less than impressed with the DR on this subject.

However, I think you have a point as well Rafael. As long as conditions in Haiti are so bad that people have to put themselves in danger by going illegally into the DR it will be difficult to find a lasting solution and a way of sharing the island without the present tensions. So for the sake of both Haitians and Dominicans the international society should try to help out in Haiti. I guess they are hesitant because it is not without danger and there is very little money to be gained here and now (which could be the main reason. Hypocricy again...)

Regards,
Susanne

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

Hey Susanne!

I thought I would just e-mail Dee directly that's why I removed my message, but yes, what you are referring to is what I was trying to get at. I was a bit harsh on OAS though, but I was just going with the stuff I have seen and I have not been too impressed :-( Take care!

Regards,
Natasha

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

To Susanne, and all--

You said "the internationalsociety should try to help out in Haiti"...NO MORE!!! American troops gave been in Haiti since 1994, when Titi came back. And where has it gotten anyone??? NOWHERE fast!!! Clinton and /or the new president-elect sould pull those troops NOW.

As for further foreign aid, NO!!! Humanitarian only. Please don't punish the poor citizens for the craziness of the government. I am all to familiar with the history from the "other" side of the island when Trujillo was in the presidency. He was a terror, but the [then] U.S. Secretary of State said, " He's a son-of-a-bitch, but he's OUR son-of-a-bitch." Is history repeating itself-- this time in Haiti???

And tell me: the New York Times this past Sunday reported that one of Cedras'secret police headmen is living here in New York. HOW AND WHY DID THE US GOVERNMENT LET THIS HAPPEN???

I have "seen too much"...the inhabitants of the sugar cane plantations are mostly Haitians who have fled the desperateness in Haiti, only to find themselves mired in indentured servitude. If we send in NGOs to either side the idea HAS to be to "teach a man how to fish and he'll eat for the rest of his life"-- give them the skills to maintain and implement using LOCAL resources. It CAN be done.

There are idiocyncrasies in the cultures of both sides of the island that have to be REALLY studied in minute detail. I would not be too quick to speak and loath to even venture a comment UNLESS you have "been there and done that." IF YOU HAVEN'T WALKED IN THE SHOES, DON'T BOTHER. And, to borrow a line from a Bob Dylan song[ The Tomes They Are A-Changin']: DON'T CRITICIZE WHAT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND.

International organizations have been in both Haiti and the DR and found human rights violations all over the place. I have photographs from the plantations. It isn't ALL bad-- the Central Romana Company plantations are a lot better than the CEA. But there's still room for improvement.

Same within Haiti. Time to stop throwing resource down the drain and hold governments up to accountability. BOTH SIDES.

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

Just to clarify: I don't think any country should send troops to Haiti, nor poor money incessantly into governmental bodies. When I mean help, I mean humanitarian and NGO's working at local level, helping establish a solid democracy at grass root level. Improvement has to come from within, just as you say, but you can help the grass roots grow, so to speak. It has been done in other countries (Nepal, Tanzania, Zambia, Lesotho etc.) and it can be done in Haiti.

I will venture a comment on this, even if I haven't "been there and done that". I don't think I am particularly rash with my opinions, and this subject - development work - happens to be a main interest. I know there are differences between countries, but there are general issues as well. And those I can address.

Apart from that, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You just have to accept the background on which it is made. Could you - as an outsider - have anything to say about the way we treat, say, refugees in Denmark? Most certainly. And because you are a foreigner you may provide valuable new angles to the discussion, even if you aren't familiar with every detail in our laws, our culture and our history. Don't be too keen on denying opinions formed from less experience and expertice than your own. (I do not mean that last bit to be ironical at all.)

Regards,
Susanne

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

To Susanne:

No one is denigrating ANY of your opinions or your right to have them. No, I wouldn't have anything to say on how you treat refugees in Denmark.

BUT when I lived in the DR I was made a part of the community. When you are made a part of the community in one part of the diaspora, you are part of it in the ENTIRE diaspora. In my case, it was the Dominican- Haitian. I have adopted family and the family of my fiance in the DR; I am a foreigner by birth only.

When the OAS went into the DR to look at the situation in the sugar plantations they did it with the same eyes as they would in any other country in its realm. What they found was not pretty.

As for establishing "demcracy" at the grass roots, I think we ALL need to take a step back and ask the local people what their greatest needs are and work up from there. Preaching too drastic a change on the governmental level may be a bit much too soon...Teddy Roosevelt said it correctly: WALK SOFTLY...

No one said you were harsh in your opinions, OK. My question is, however, have you worked in the DR or Haiti? If so, what did you do. Before you fire any darts at me, let me disclaim that I never would nor ever will believe that I am superior to anyone, or because I've "been there/done that" that it makes me better or any kind of "authority." But people who have seen the conditions first hand [and many more than I have served longer than I, so I do NOT posess all knowledge about the DR].

Since it is my "adopted" country and I have very close personal ties, I tend to do a lot of study on all levels about the place and her people.

Go placidly into the DR...go deeply into the DR...away from the resorts and then let us know what you see.

Re: OHHHHH, dee

To Robert and whomever--

I think you might have missed the point. HAITI has to fix HAITI. PERIOD.

The reason -- if you read me correctly-- that most Haitians go to the DR is because at least in the DR they have SOME hope [minute though it may be] of work-- even if it is in the sugar fields. I don't condone any maltreatment of anyone, but the 80% unemployment rate in Haiti says something LOUD.

In the short time that I've been going to the DR [seven years] I've seen a lot of improvements in a lot of areas. The country is doing pretty well in spite of those few foibles. The DR is growing in international investment/business and the tourist industry has done much to help the economy. Again, it may not be a "perfect world" situation, but the DR is doing much to pick up itself... CAN HAITI SAY THAT?? NO!!!!!

On a recent news broadcast here in New York, David Usury, an ABC journalist was talking to a Haitian man who spent many years in Brooklyn and went back to Haiti to see if he could have a chance at a good life there. he is returning to Brooklyn as soon as he can.

Many, many groups have gone into Haiti to try and help the government improve the situation and gotten mired in merde. Ameriucan troups are STILL in Haiti...WHY???????????? The are not doing anything and the Lavalas violence and corruption just keep growing and growing. NUFF SAID ????

I can see sending in humanitarian aid but stay the heck out of the folie de gouvernement. BASTA YA!!!

In re the Dominicans and PR--I agree that the INS needs to get its head out of its fanny and give Dominicans a chance. INS treats people from the Western side of Santo Domingo with a greater preference for whatever reason. It is NOT fair. INS is notoriously hard on Dominicans.

But have you visited Washington Heights and the South Bronx lately??? There's an awful lot of Dominicans here. The US HAS to take a revised look at the immigration laws. I agree, but unless somebody tells Haiti to wise up or pay the piper nothing will be done. Just look st its history. And I rest my case.

Re: let's brace ourselves :-/

Now that Aristide will take power (even if its legitimacy is highly questionable) and international aid, including even that of the UN, will pretty much cease, Haiti's situation is more critical than ever. That's not even considering the fact that this sister country of the DR will get an even colder shoulder when Bush takes office (and it looks as though he will). Let's not forget that Mr. Bush sited Haiti as a prime example of "failed" nation-building initiatives.

But you see, this is a dangerous and risky position to take in the case of Haiti, in particular. Mr. Bush is not being smart. And if the US is intelligent enough, the best thing to do is not to walk away from Haiti. It is very easy to "leave Haiti alone"; signs that this is already happening are crystal clear, including the US not even bothering to send independent election observers last Sunday (well, after Nov. 7th...). Not sending observers really had nothing to do with US' own elections fiasco, but all to do with the US and the international community distancing themselves from the "mess" and the "unsolveable".

For the life of me, I cannot comprehend this situation in Haiti. It completely blows my mind. Let the US think for a minute that by leaving Haiti alone it will send a "message" to the gov't there. Let the US think this will bear no consequenses for the US herself (and the DR). I think not! The DR, no doubt will bear the brunt of these consequenses, and maybe that is just dandy with Mr. Bush or whoever sits in the White House anyway, but make no mistake, the flotillas will be coming soon, along with more cocaine. But the most terrible consequenses will be for the Haitians themselves.

The US does have the right to walk away, specially after spending US$2.2 BILLION in Haiti. Gosh, the DR has never being helped so generously. Yep, the US and the international community have the right to say "the buck stops here". A closer look however, will reveal that it is not just Haiti to be blamed here. Paternalistic approches to aid don't work. And criticisms either...OAS - with its wishy washy and inconsistent stance on things - what a joke!

By the way, you advocate NGO's a great deal. I am on the side of NGO's, though that might not be so evident by some of my messages concerning them here on the board. But really, for the most part, they work well (and I know as I wrote a thesis on them and have hands on experience with them...trust me, I know the inner workings of NGO's ;-)). But, I also know their limitations and they can only do so much. NON-GOVERNMENTAL ORGANISATIONS - well, that's just a contradiction in terms! Guess who FUNDS these folks, for the most part? Nope, I don't think relying on NGO's alone is the answer in Haiti. But then again I don't have the answers either. Haiti is a sad case, and it says a lot when even my Haitian collegues and friends throw their hands in the air.

Regards,
Natasha

Re: let's brace ourselves :-/

Natasha--

Thanks for your VERY wise observations.

We ARE sitting on top of a possible "Pandora's Box/powder keg" with any withdrawl from Haiti...amke no mistake. BUT it IS time for the buck to stop. NOW. By the way-- Mr. Bush IS NOT YET PRESDIENT...Sweetie, don't count the chiclkens before they hatch.

There are LEGITIMATE organizations that are NOT connected with the police or other such operatives that WOULD make good participant/observers. Aid workers and missionary connections, cildren's relief agencies... this type of thing.

The fact still remains that the GOVERNMENT of Haiti cannot be supported by any more assistance. DO NOT penalize the populace for the folly of the government. Absolutely NOT. There are people in Haiti dying from curable conditions... a ll they need is the doctors to go in and bring it to them. I've been a part of this type of outreach and it DOES work miracles.

When I was in the DR, several people actually accused me of spying for my government. These people actually had the nerve to come to my house while I was recovering from a nasty bout of Hep "A" and grill me about this connection. I was a mission volunteer, in the DR to assist with humanitarian outreach, not a government spy. The person who did this was from Haiti.

If you want historical/political background, read Michelle Wucker's books and also Amy Wilentz. These women have the pulse and they write well. Michelle knows some of the same people I do and I can highly recommend her stuff. Amy W.'s reportage is excellent too.

The Haiti situation is very complicated and it goes back 500 years... at least to Toussaint[L'Overture]. I don't foresee any blockade unless Titi gets stupid. Then it's a different story. This shouldn't penalize the DR an awful lot if at all.

Read up on this, Natasha--it will enlighten you. Ask all the questions you need to. IAM JUST HAPPY TO SEE SOMEONE LIKE YOU WANTING TO BE WELL INFORMED. It does me soul good to see this!!!

Meanwhile, try this web site: "www.nchr.org" -- it is the National Coalition for Haitian Rights. It is based here in New York and is the real pulse of the situation.

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

>> "So for the sake of both Haitians and Dominicans the international society should try to help out
in Haiti." <<<

I must agree 100% with Susanne as to where the international aid should be concentrated. The living
conditions in Haiti are deplorable, simply put, inhumane. For the vast majority, their daily struggle to
exist has been reduced to a 'life in hell' scenario.

In the past I've commented on the illegal Haitian enclaves in the Dominican Republic and my
perception of how some/ most (the ones I know) Dominicans view the situation. IMHO, the illegals
aren't welcomed in the DR, they are at best economic refugees, at worst a blight on the nation (in the
words of the Dominicans I've spoken with).

The two nations, Haiti and the DR share the same island and a mutual history filled with animosity and
blood shed over the centuries. This very fact should allow for the starting point in coming together
with a solution to all of the problems, the past holds the key to the future. Possibly, this may be the
only thing these two nations have in common. The various entities that are involved with the Haitian
morass should understand this: trying in any way to coerce the DR to give the illegal Haitians
Dominican citizenship will back fire down the road. The cultural differences of the two nations isn't
mutually reconcilable, IMHO, period.

Regards,

. . . CES

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

CES--

Nobody said I didn't agree with Sue. BE CAREFUL HOW YOU READ MY WORDS. Haiti's government MUST, I repeat, get its head out of its fanny and pay attention to the needs of ALL her people. Eighty percent unemployment IS deplorable. BUT Haiti has to do something to be credible with the world business/economic/political communities for there to be any real movement forward.

Remember this too: there are many Dominicans trying to get into the US, but INS is being really hard-nosed because they say we cannot afford to have "economic refugees" here. INS is being very arbitrary with Dominicans, yet giving Haitians much freer entry. Some of those Haitians are wanted by their government and are even being tried in absentia. Can somebody give me a sane explanation for this seemingly backward policy?

As far as the two nations sitting down together--yes, that's the IDEAL world. Then there's reality. It would be nice to think that they could do this, but I can't picture Mejia and Aristide doing that.

Titi is becoming a law unto himself. His initial well-meaning is going down an entirely different path. If I remember my history correctly, Francois Duvalier started out as a rather good-intentioned medical doctor/turned politician and then went downhill to perdition really fast. If you have ever spoken with anyone who had to deal with the Tonton Macoute, you'd realize why the Haitians feel much better in the DR even though they know their plight is not the best. Then came the PHRAPH [I think that's how you spell it]who appeared to be a new, hellish version of the TM. I have seen themachete scars on some of these people and it's NOT pretty.

THERE IS A NECESSITY for the DR and Haiti governments to sit down with each other to try and do something about their mutual economic problems. The Dominicans only need to look back to the Trujillo years to remember what terror was. Rememberthe old saying, "There but for the grace of God go I." This can be said for the DR and her people. Remember your past or you are doomed to repeat it. That's not a threatening statement, only reality. Learn from the past or you can repeat its mistakes.

Even in my own country the situation is far from perfect and we still have problems, especially in the south. But it was through the efforts of people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and all the people of the civil rights movement that things changed at all.

Right now, as we await the results of our election, there are many here who fear that our advances will go backward if the Republicans take office. I agree for many reasons. Include in that change, the openness to immigrants. The 1996 law was an awful setback, but Bush would make it worse.

Take care to read what I mean, please.

Re: umm...I don't know... (Dee)

Hi Dee Dee,

I made a mistake submitting my post, wanted the subject line to say:
"Re: umm...I don't know Dee. . . (Susanne", I was trying to respond to Ms.
Susanne and wanted my message viewed in that context. Also when a thread starts
collapsing strange things happen, as in the disjointed placement of my post as a new message
at the front of the board. . .

>> "Nobody said I didn't agree with Sue. BE CAREFUL HOW YOU READ MY
WORDS" <<<
Dee, please understand, I was simply trying to respond to Ms. Susanne's message, I
have no quarrel with your position, I think you are making some very good points as to the
conditions in Haiti.

To quote my message: "}"So for the sake of both Haitians and Dominicans the
international society should try to help out in Haiti." I must agree 100% with
Susanne as to where the international aid should be concentrated.{" I wanted my
post to covey what I've heard Dominicans say about the continued presents of
illegal Haitians in the DR. I'm well aware of "the Days of the Tonton Macoute", the
"Docs", Papa & Baby, and the present day illegal drug trade economy. . . Hope this
in some way helps to illuminate my position on the issue. . .

Regards,

. . . CES

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

Haitian problem?Just let's build another wall.Great wall of china,korea,germany,united states,world wide toughening on immigration etc.So why not here also?10m wide 15 m high.This should give a nice boost to the economy take unemployment down for some time to come and raise another tourist attraction.
And in case not enough dominican workers?Let's take haitians.

Re: let's brace ourselves :-/

Hi Dee,

I am not saying that the US gov't should send troops to Haiti and/or pour money into the Haitian gov't. I have admitted that I don't really know what the answers are when it comes to Haiti.

The only thing I know is that the condition of Haiti is worse today than 5 or 10 years ago. The picture is extremely bleak to say the least. I'll continue to say, let's brace ourselves for what is coming, if things don't improve a bit soon.

Also, thanks for your reading recommendations. I have browsed through Wucker's book and it is a good one. However, I am a born and bread Dominican who is very knowledgeable of her country's history and that of Haiti's as well. No, I am not saying that just because I am Dominican that that gives me credibility.

The history of Hispaniola is, in my opinion, the most interesting in the entire Caribbean, if not Latin America. On the history of Hispaniola I have read books by Dominican and Haitian authors and countless other nationalities in between. All offer interesting perspectives. The best enlightenment that I have received however, is the friendships that I have made with Haitians themselves, and being Dominican, I know somewhat ;-) the intricate relationship that exists between us and our cousins. No, I have not worked in the sugar cane fields. But, I grew up seeing poor Dominicans and Haitians cutting them. I know how many Dominicans feel about Haitians and I have come to know very well how these two groups interact in the diaspora. Interestingly enough, and perhaps you know this too, in the diaspora, Haitians and Dominicans get along and pretty much work together for the commom good of Hispaniola.

Regards,
Natasha

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

SAY HEY, BIG "D-ADDY": what the heck are you talking about??? I sure hope your comment was "tongue-in-cheek"...No, we DON'T need a wall from Dajabon to Jimani...just the tearing down of hatred and ignorance. That's one wall we can all do without.

Re: umm...I don't know... (Dee)

HI CES-- Points well taken and no offense taken either.
Something I'd like to tell you about that may be on interest to all: Today I bought a new[to me,anyway] magazine called URBAN LATINO. It is published six times a year. In the current issue [ISSUE 28] there is an article by Michelle Wucker [author of WHY THE COCKS FIGHT;Dominicans, Haitians and the Sutrggle for Hispaniola] entitled " One Island Dividedomihnicans and Haitians Learn to Share an Island." The magazine has a web site: "www.urban latino.com". Michelle's writing on the subject is the BEST and very accurate. She puts her "whole" into this and is a very bright light.
Anyway, we don't need a repeat of La Matanza [the 1937 Massacre]. If more people become aware and work on the solution instead of perpetuating ignorance and hate, much will be done to helping the situation.
I guess my heart, soul, and spirit were so deeply affected by what I saw that I keep really close tabs on what is being said.
Just to let you know I appreciate you and your comments.

Re: let's brace ourselves :-/

Natasha--

You are such a bright light!!! Thanks so much for delving in to the heart of this matter. Read the message I posted to CES--and read the new issue of URBAN LATINO if you can find it-- it has an article called ONE ISLAND DIVIDED by Michelle Wucker. She"did it again."...wrote a brilliant and to-the-point article on the situation in a readable, unbiased, accurate manner.

Your memories serve you well. Let your light so shine.

Re: OHHHHH, dee & everyone else

I myself have only been to DR once. We stayed in Bonao, and did not get to do any site seeing. I was completely saddened driving around some of the areas, people living in shacks that looked as if they were going to collapse at any given moment. Saw a mother carrying her baby around with no diaper, her own clothes dirty & tattered. I was so incredably thankful to be a born American at that second and became very thankful for how spoiled I actually am and was not really aware of it before. If Haiti is worse than this, I shall shed several tears. What can Haiti honestly do though? With the two countries being irreconciable, I am shocked that a trash dump has not divided the border. <<Do not take that the wrong way. How can the government be overthrown in that country without starting some sort of war? Why the heck are American troops still there, wasn't that like a couple years ago? Well the people that have caused this suffering to these poor people of Haiti will suffer themselves, karma has its way of biting you back.

Danielle