Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

i say HEY!
"tongue-i-n cheek"?sorry but i am not familiar with this term.does this mean french kiss or something like this?please be so kind and clarify this expression to me.

you say we/you don't need a wall?let's take a look in a bad(still not worst case) scenario.what is the population of haiti right now 8 or 11 million?
any way if all these people have no resources,no work and nothing to loose,no where else to go.what is going to happen?a migration east to the neighbor who in their eyes has all they need.
a process that starts slow with a few hundred people going into the thousands, houndred of thousands into the millions.think of 2-3 million haitians moving east at the same time.
who or what is going to stop them?NOTHING!!!no military,no international peace keeping forces,no volunteers of any kind of organisation,absolutly NOTHING.
once they have arrived what is going to happen?
dominicans defending their shortrange territory,haitians attacking whereever they can to gain what they need.killing and bloodshed until the last man stands.
where would you be?catching the last plane out of here?
a horrorscenario or a possibility?can it start,will it start or may be has already started?
who can tell right now but let's take a look in 10 or 20 years.
so putting up a true wall has not necesarily to do with ignorance or hatred but is just a means of defense.
a right granted to any nation.Correct?

but this wall is just an illusion as is yours of tearing down hatred and ignorance.as long as dominicans don't start talking about a wall nothing will happen in this direction anyway.once they start it maybe to late.
so be happy no wall from dajabon to jimani

 

[CES]

Re:"appreciate you" THANX DEE *DC*

 

[Dee DeMusis]

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

Big D-- I am not going to get into an unending morass of a discussion about this much longerBUT I have to respond to this latest of yours--First "tongue in cheek" means for fun of "not really...

Anyway, you seem to think it's easy for a Haitian to stay in the DR...if they are caught without documents, they are VERY unceremoniously taken from where they are and dumped at the frontier/dispatched home QUICKLY. Anyone who is undocumented can't do much in the DR...can't go to school, can;t legally work and travel is very difficult.

By the way, where have you been for the last 500 years? people have been coming across the frontier sonce "day one!"The Wall"--remember what happened when they partitioned Berlin? Probably not. You don't sound old enough to remember such history. Were you around during Trujillo? Have you memory of the 1937 Massacre? There is a very old proverb that says "if people ignore their history, they are doomed to repeat it." It would appear that both sides are doing that and experiencing the repetition!
As for what I think: about now, I want to see more opportunities for DOminicans to come up here and have a chance at their dreams. The Immigration and Naturalization Service has given a higher preference to Haitians while they harass DOminicans at seemingly every turn. THIS is what I have a real problem with. I do NOT begrudge ANY nationality an opportunity to come to the US [because I am a child of immigrants myself-- grandparents from Italy and Canada], BUT I want to see some fairness. There are Haitians here who worked for Papa and Baby Doc who were responsible for the deaths of many; they can come and stsay here, but some DOminicans with decent qualifications can't get anything but harassment at the embassy in SDQ.

Answer me now, BD.

 

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummmmm...I don't know Dee, but...

thank you for the clarification TiC.anyway i stand to my opinion and therefore really meant it.

as everywhere indocumented/illegal immegrants cause and therefore have their shares of problems pretty much everywhere in the world.
now why is every rich country keeping poor or uneducated people which are mainly considered economic refugees out?
they cost to much and bring to little.
so as the d.r.is rich compared to haiti it needs to do the same to the haitian as the U.S. is doing to dominicans.keep them out as much as possible.even though there are many many dominicans with legal residendies in the U.S.

now 500 years ago we have not been around.not you not me.that bordercrossing happened from day one is clear and is ok until our mordern overcrowded times!!and this is the true problem that has to be seen as it is the cause of a lot of bad things happening here and worldwide.How was the population 40 years ago?1 million dominicans and 1 million haitians?today 7,5-8 million dominicans and 8-11 million haitians!!!and this all on the same little island with limited resources.

do you know the theory what happened to the natives of the easter islands?

the WALL in berlin kept a nation that belonged together and 2 political syatems apart.something a bit different.
the wall i was talking about would keep 2 different cultures nations apart which really don't need each other and where one would cause more harm to the other than is good for any relation.

the massacre caused by trujillo was more or less political motivated and has nothing to do with economics of his time or today.history can repeat itself but not necesarily for the same reason.think also of 22 years of haitian occupancy of the dominican republic.history may repeats itself again?
besides can you say perejil in french?

now the question is why is the INS giving higher preference to haitians as to dominicans?a very complex issue i guess.
papa and baby doc haitians are propably considered political refugees and therefore are propably in a class by itself.
you see dominicans are not being political chased.at least not yet !
and in economics i believe dominicans stand in their own way and trip over their own feet.

well i have answered you.want some more?

talk to you later BD

 

[CES]

Re: ummm...I don't know... ( BD )

Hi BD,

>>> ". . . and in economics i believe dominicans stand in their own way and trip
over their own feet." <<<

I must agree with you 100, no 1000%, if the Mej?a regime doesn't get it's head out of
it's a.., then in the future we'll have do a "proctoscopy" to communication with the
powers that be ! ! ! (LOL An administration controlled by "el campo" is doomed to
derision and ridicule and will be relegated to defeat in the context of the 21st.
century! ! ! The politics of political patronage and corruption are a sure sign that the
PRD is simply the same old mob of political hacks and opportunists, "nothing learned
nothing gained". Stealing the from national treasury should be a crime in any one's
book.

>>> ". . . now the question is why is the INS giving higher preference to haitians as
to dominicans?a very complex issue i guess. papa and baby doc haitians are
propably considered political refugees and therefore are propably in a class by itself. .
." <<<

This is a very good point, many Haitians in the past were able to be admitted to the
USA as political refugees, and rightfully so. The newly seated Aristide government
has/ will create the same political situation that prevailed in the past and we'll see the
same thing happen again as to "Haitian boat people".

>>> " . . . you see dominicans are not being political chased.at least not yet !
well i have answered you.want some more? . . ." <<<

BD, will you please expand on this, I'm not getting your point, and yes please give us
more of your thoughts, the perspective of "un Dominicano" is most appreciated here.

Thank you and. . .

Regards,

. . . CES

ps . . . >>> "besides can you say perejil in french? " <<< I wonder if any of our
good readers know the story behind the word "perejil"? ? ?

 

[Dee DeMusis]

Re: ummm...I don't know... ( BD )

HI BD and CES-- T

his dialogue is VERY thought provoking in a VERY POSITIVE manner and while I don't agree with everything said, it is certainly a good thing that this can be discussed in such a civilized manner.

CES-- Dominicans ARE chased in a manner of speaking: how about those who DO make it to Puerto Rico via the Mona, only to be harassed and sent back without much hearing of their reasons for doing the crossing.

There must be SOME reason driving so many to want out...I saw enough while I was incountry to understand what moves people. While the American lifestyle is not perfect, the one thing that I hear from the Dominicans and Haitians that I talk to here in New York is that the FREEDOMS are the most highly prized.

Someone [perhaps Natasha] pointed out that the Domoincans and Haitians who live together out here in the diaspora not only get along, but also are working TOGETHER for some kind of resolution [or should I spell it-reSOLUTION]. So one may wonder: does it take being withdrawn from the "fire" of the "war" on the island to bring about dialogue of an intelligent kind.

BD-- I am VERY against the INS policies. They are arbitrary at best and oppressive at worst.

Haiti will either "wake up and die right" or........The DR government has a CHANCE to do the same. As far as WALLS..Berlin's was a political wall-- you're right; but I was referring to the ideological morass it created as well as dividing human beings for such nonsensical reasons.

I repeat-- BOTH Haiti and the DR have to get their governmental heads out of their fannies and DO something about it. The answers are there...and the resources to correct the situation. Now just break free of the lethargy.

Thanks for such a wonderful dialogue, BD. I appreciate it and you.

 

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummm...I don't know... CES

well, sounds like you know the story!?
to my knowledge it goes like this:there was a time where everybody was halted and asked to say the word perejil.anybody who could not pronunce the word correctly was seen as haitian and deported.apparently it was under trujillo something that makes sense even though i heared it was long before that.maybe it was even used in the massacre.the story came up again as joke if i remember correctly during the election of 94 with pe?a gomez running against balaguer.
what story do you know?

now being chased politically.depending the point of view you may take the corruption processing of former government officials as start of an political witch hunt.it may is the way of doing it rather than the doing itself.
but this needs to be followed closley as this may be a subtle way of taking out competition early on in order to stay on power for another term.

my personal feeling is that if you talk to much against the present rule and party that you are being closer observed by the people you talk to and more agressivly spoken against as defense of the prd rule.
and it's only and always the fault of the previous government.

 

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummm...I don't know... dee

well coming to the yola people:
these are illegal immigrants who are not being political harassed or followed.they are just economical refugees who are being tricked into BUYING the trip into paradise.besides being tricked into a venture wich is not true it is the same happening as with haiti.people looking for paradise or something else and heading east.
the same tricks are happening with containerloads of chinese going to canada,u.s.,europe etc.
people are coming from the former eastblock trying to pass into the european union over the green border of austria,germany,
tchecheslovakia,poland etc.same thing, other people,other location.and also heavy crackdown on the illegals.
the best waitng and process system is in australia.they bring them in the outback and let them grill untill they are ready to go home.

what are the freedoms dominicans have in new york or puerto rico they don't have here?
they can talk,they can write,they make their huelgas, they run businesses without registration and paying taxes.they can buy cars, trucks and everything is available.they can make pretty much any business they like.and they can be successful if they want to.they can travel freely and are only restricted by visa and embassy stuff.in part their fault, in part not.
big question!!why are they not doing it?why do they always wait that somebody puts a spoon in their mouth and feeds them.where is the self initiative?
what is the difference in working as low class employee in new york or here?
if they can be successful in new york why than not here?

i grant you the reason that a lot is more difficult here due to structural reasons.this again is in big part eleminated due to lack of control.i believe dominicans have here a fair chance if they get up and do things the right way and effecient.but it takes some brains and will to do it.if the minimum requirement is missing you can give him/her a million and he/she want be able to do anything except consume and bring everything to nil.

i can tell you a lot of storie's from people who want everything and do nothing to deserve it.dreaming of a better life in the big apple or where ever but unable to get up from their lazy butt and start moving to earn a living.

but i can also say that i know a lot of people who are working their butt offand are moving and doing things and pushing into the right directions.these are the people who make the difference and deserve everything and all the support they can get.
and due to these people i believe there is a good chance for future improvement if not being fouled up by politics.

 

[rabble rouser]

Re: ummm...I don't know... CES

BD, forgive me for intruding on your discussions, but your opinions are so very enlightening to someone who visited your country for the first time this year after 10+years away.

you ask why your country men want to leave for the "big apple" but i think you have answered the question with your last statement: "if you talk to much against the present rule and party.....and its always the fault of the previous government."

yes, your country has so many opportunities for those who strive for them, but the sense of a lack of control must surely out weigh that 10 times over for many people.

if you would mind explaining what exactly is the significance of the word perejil--ie. why was that word chosen to determine Dominican or Haitian heritage?--perejil=persil(francais)=parsley(english)? i am curious.

 

[CES]

Re: umm . . . "Urban Latino" *PIC*

Here's the direct link to Urban Latino:

http://www.urbanlatino.com/home/home.php3?section=magazine

Quoted from home page:

"The Focus of Urban Latino is the Latino experience in this country, viewing all sides our story. Our writers and contributors are individuals who have lived and experienced this diverse culture. Through their essays, columns, illustrations and photos, we plan to show the story of a people."

http://www.urbanlatino.com/resources/home/issue25.gif

. . . CES

 

[CES]

Re: ummmmm... Haitians in DR (IMHO)

*)]}>+ DR1 1999 Archive +<{[(*

Re: Haitians in DR?

Posted By: CES

Date: Sunday, 31 October 1999

In Response To: Re: Haitians in DR? (Danie Miller)

From the "DR1 Daily News":

}} Haiti needs international help to solve its problems {{

artical dated Tuesday, 26 October 1999

Haiti needs international aid to solve its problems Secretary of the Presidency Alejandrina German said
that Haitian migration to the Dominican Republic cannot be the solution to the problems in Haiti. She
said that the international community needs to assist Haiti so that solutions within Haiti are found to
Haitian problems. The DR is at present affected by an exodus of Haitians seeking jobs in the DR. Jobs
are a plenty for them, and today illegal Haitians, that accept lower wages and less benefits, have
displaced Dominicans in farms and construction works. There is a movement in the DR to boost
international support for Haiti. This is more difficult than it seems. El Siglo newspaper reports that the
Interamerican Development Bank has paralyzed aid and projects while political instability and institutional
crisis persist in that nation. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? While instability has impeded the
influx of international aid, international aid is essential for development programs that in turn would create
the conditions for political stability. Meanwhile, the ban on the funds has impeded the disbursement of
aid that would be used for development programs. Several have recommended the carrying out of joint
Dominican-Haitian programs along the frontier, where Dominicans would handle the funds but the
beneficiaries would be the Haitians. Among these projects is the construction of a major international
hospital along the frontier area as well as free zones that could employ thousands of Haitians. The
development of Haiti is in the best interest of the DR. If Haiti develops, its residents will be able to buy
more Dominican goods and there will be less migration. Migration is seen as a burden on Dominican
social services. Haitians are also renown for their ancient farming techniques that foster disforestation.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ {:} ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

First off I'm not a raciest, our youngest daughter was once told by her high school
teacher that on her high school records questionnaire she should check off black as
her race and our other daughter would be seen as English/ Irish or Scandinavian. It
would be hard to argue the point as I'm the latter and my wife is Spanish/ French
(una Dominicana). My life experience has taught me humility and tolerance (farm &
construction work are my back ground) and I want to see the Haitian issue settled
with a minimum amount of strife.

. . . . as applied to this topic, so with that said lets start with this from my opening post:

>>> I want to be very clear on this point: The Haitians can not continue in their present status in the DR,
they must move on. . . <<<

I should have stated "Illegal Haitian Emigrants" and put some of your minds at rest
and I did say it was joke to send the Haitians to live with "baby doc", but then I think
some entity should ding him for the millions the s.o.b. took from the country. The
send'm back to Africa idea should have been 'to Liberia' as was done by the USofA in
the last century (just a joke). France has an abysmal record when it comes to colonial
matters. Has any body heard of Vietnam? The United States should butt out of telling
others how to manage their internal affairs. I would think the UN should be the one
to coordinate the massive foreign aid effort needed to put Haiti on the "right" path.
Now we come to why I think they should move on. The Dominican Republic has very
limited resources and only a limited amount of land to support it's own people. The
cultural differences are so great that trying to assimilate the Haitians into the
Dominican way of being is unworkable, it just isn't going to happen. Just look at the
last 150 years in the USA. I ask you WHY would you want to visit such an upheaval
on the Dominican people? One million Haitians in the DR would upset the present
balance that makes up every thing we like about the country. One last question as to this
issue: How many Dominicans do you know in the areas of illegal Haitian settlements
that are in favor of their situation?

Regards . . . CES

______________________________ + {:} + _________________________

I did some editing (shortened) on the above, the original thread link is:

From Archive

 

[Dee DeMusis]

Re: ummmmm... Haitians in DR (IMHO)

To BD et a;:

Among the freedoms that people have in the US is the RIGHT to free speech. We can critique our government without necessarily getting arrested. If your memory is short, remember the old saying that those who are ignorant of their past are doomed to repeat it. If you don't remember the terror of living under a dictator [Trujillo] it is just a short step to history repeating itself.

For all the flaws that the USA has, we have NEVER had that problem. Oh, I grant you we had the McCarthy fiasco in the 50s, but you can be damn sure we learned the lesson from that. We also had the whole Viet Nam war thing to deal with too. I am NOT proud of the killings that took place during our civil rights movement back in the 50s-70s, but we learned and grew as a result.

It's easy for some Dominicans and Haitians to fend off remarks about the Europeans and the mid-East actions [the Palestinian-Jewish fight]and not take a close look inside themselves or their history.

Let's not get too far-afield in this dialogue.

The yola people ARE harassed by INS-- all they want to do is acquire a better quality of life and they took a high risk. If INS would be a little more open, there would not be this kind of thing happening. My own people came to the US to achieve a better quality of life, so I can speak to/from the heart of those who seek to breather freer.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that alot of Domincans have a "gimmee" attitude [hands out for a dole and not working for it]; there are others who DO work for the best wage the country offers, but it still isn't enough to pay the bills...they also have their hands out. Up here we call societies like that a "remittance" society: dependent on friends and relatives who make it to the US to "send dinero." It isn't just the DR either.

I knew someone who works at Casa De Campo at the golf club. He makes less than US$200 a month. A sanitation worker in a park here in New York makes that in four days. No, you can't compare the US to the DR but the principle is the same: pay people a living wage and they will stay home. Period.

Last year at this time, I was homeless and living in a shelter. The City of New York gave me a HAND UP and now I am teaching, have my own place in Manhattan [near Times Square] and make a fantastic salary. The point is that if the opportunities were there, people could pick themselves up. Many Dominicans and Haitians ARE lazy...but NOT ALL.

If people could look at history and not point fingers, the problem would lessen by 1,000% and y'all could get on with it.

I'm NOT a "butt-in" gringa. My novio is Dominicano [pero neoyorquino--here for 35 years] and I work for some missions in the DR. I am not my government; I am someone who sincerely loves the DR and her people and it makes me sick and sad when I see some of the things I do there.
Bye.

 

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummm...I don't know... RR

no sweat!any qualified or critical comment or opinion is welcomed.at least from my side.
no it does not answer the question to the big apple.then this would be suggesting that there is political persecution.this i don't really see happening at this moment.
what i was refering to is the way how former government officials and high ranking pld members are being jailed under the heading of corruption charges.this more a judicial reform problem than necesary political persecution even though there is a strong smell of this also.it might even be a political persecution and therefore should be seen as eyeopener and warningflag.
besides if these officials are guilty of corruption they defenitly need to be prosecuted and have to pay back on the damage they may have caused.but then also the prd has to take a close watch on their own people while being in business.
after all there will be somebody next maybe even the pld again.
we?ll see.

i think lack of control gives even more power to the oportunities.think of industrialized world rules and regulations!100,000 of them in all sectors of lives.some rule somewhere is going to shut you down or limit you or don't even let you start if known to some small administrative officer sitting in some office in some state.
try to see yourself setting up your own car factory.do you have an idea what you are up against?lack of control would/could bring you then in business.
there are a lot of rules and regulations here which are outdated old fashion don't make sense in modern time and would be more damaging to industry and economy than being applied.
but dominicans are like water in this respect.they always find a way around or over the barriers.

how about telling a bit of your first time after 10+ years experience.what has changed?to the better to the worse?
looking foreward to your comment

bd

 

[rabble rouser]

Re: ummm...I don't know... RR

bd, you really challenge people here don't you?(and i mean that in a most positive way.) your questions don't deserve a quick dashed off response, but with my sometimes lack of ability to get the thoughts in my head to come out logically on the keyboard i am struggling somewhat. add to that 65cm. of snow that fell between monday night and this morning-but i shall persevere.

first off my opinions are based only on memories from trips taken in the late mid/late '80's, the small amount that i saw this year, and from what i've read on and through this forum over the past year...so i still need a lot more education about the Dominican Republic.

it seems to me that if either past or current government officials can't be trusted then that leads to a sense of lack of control by the voter. by that i mean that people develop a belief that they can't, through their vote, help effect any positive changes in the running of their government. their sense of importance as an individual is diminished, and if nothing is going to change, then why stay? surely life must be better somewhere else?

i think somehow, and this is probably true for most countries-possibly all-around the world, the interests of the multi-billion dollar companies have become the interests of governments as well. the only thing is i just don't believe that you can run a government as you would a business. i came across this in a newspaper article yesterday: "Democracy, real democracy, which means passion, commitment, confrontation, the clash of ideas, has moved out and away from our parliaments and into the global ether." the lure of the dollar has overtaken the ideals that each country should set for itself.

as for the rules and regulations inhibiting opportunities, i believe for the most part they are necessary. corporate responsibility would disappear if they aren't monitored. profit generally comes first in any decision and what is good for the business may not necessarily be best for society-and bear in mind that i have been self-employed for 10 years now.

as for what differences i saw after 10 years, well the the thing that struck me there seemed to be so much more garbage-and much of it could have been recycled if facilities exist. do they?

i saw a lot of new construction-roads, apartments and mega resorts. is this a good thing?-necessary i suppose some would say, but i know i sure don't like seeing the mega resorts sprouting up all over the country.

and finally it seemed to me that people are much more in a hurry than before-whether it be traffic on the street, people walking or the waiter who seems to want you in and out of the restaurant in 45 minutes-and no it wasn't closing time. granted all of this was in "the hotel zones", perhaps the pace of life hasn't changed as much elsewhere.

 

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummm...I don't know... RR

yes i guess i try to challenge and provoke sometimes.otherwise it would be a bit boring.
many times discussion are only held superficial or as you said it are getting dashed of responses..so i try to get in a bit deeper if possible.

so much snow!!wish i were there!!!there is no christmas better than a white christmas!!!!!!

i think you have a good point about the voters.but as voters are rarly in control so i would rather say it leads to not trusting any running candidate/party.this mistrust than turns into voterfrustration as they know/say that all candidates/parties are the same.this then leads to voting for the nicest or more sympathic candidate or protestvoting or even worse no voting at all.but even this looks similar to happenings in other countries where this is called voterfatigue.take a look at the absentee percentage of the admitted voters.
if this brings a sense of unimportance or not being taken seriously by politicians it would by itself be no reason to leave a country.it may could be a reason to get activly involved and to try to change things but not to leave.
i think anybody anywhere who is frustrated with his life has this idea or opinion that it may be better somewhere else.
somebody on this board wrote:the grass appears always greener on the other side of the fence.to some extent it may be.but any change for the so called better life somewhere else will have it downsites also and many times a hefty price.only this is rarly seen but therefore truly and sometimes hurtfully lived or experienced.something like switching from freedom into the golden cage and vice versa.

i think multibillion $$national industry and politics is like waging war in another dimension with different types of casualties.
look at the british colonialindustry,the u.s. opening the japanaese market in the 1800's,the agressive expansion of the japanese industry during the 70' and 80's.the u.s. defense of their interests in markets worldwide.
so industry and politics are conected but it takes a focus on the matter and always is sold as the best interest of the respective nation.
as the d.r.has focused on tourism they did pretty well.the same could be possible for production and exporting.if you have no products create some,if you have no market create one.but for this it takes comittement and focus of industry and politics as well.either one is not in the game it will not work.and there are not to many players in the game here.
for example:instead of being proud to sell products made in the d.r. many shopsellers pride themselfe with imported artesania from columbia.does this make sense to you?

can governments,parliaments keep up with the pace of modern times?seems to be pretty diffcult if not impossible as trends and ideas can change faster as you can say hey.

i guess rules and regulation are necesary but have negative effects if there is an overregulation so that you can't breath.one good thing they can create are markets and uniformed standards and therefore secure a minimum quality.
this is for sure something missing here.it doesn't matter what and how as long as everything is cheap.this cheap also makes it quite tough to aquire reserves for bad times or hinder investments to improve the business.

sorry to say that there are no recycle facilities to my knowledge.they also don't have a garbage burningplant combined with a generator plant.not even thinking about something important like this.partrecycling is done by certain people picking garbage and making some use and a living from it.bottles are being sold back to the companies of origin.broken glass is bagged and sold as protection against wall climbers on perimeter walls.just 1 example of many.and clearly the ambiente gets it part of the waste.be it oil or battery acid etc.
some time ago i saw a program.same thing happening in mother russia.garbage a true problem!WORLDWIDE!!!

time itself also has become a problem.as it is more difficult to move from point a to b people spend less time with each other as in traffic jams.at least true in the big city here and santiago.
i just took a look at some pictures taken a few years ago.almost no traffic and lots of parkingspace at anytime in the colonial zone.that was truly heaven then.

last word:the tourist industry wants a temporary building stop on hotels as there are enough in the moment.to be reconsidered by development in under developed areas like barahona and monte cristi.
so lot's of words but informative?

 

[BIG DADDY]

Re: ummmmm... Haitians in DR (IMHO)dee

sorry but i don't exactly understand what you want to say.

those who are ignorant of their past are doomed to repeat it.do you remember the terror of living under trujillo yourself?what terror exactly and against whom?

what do you mean with:dictator(trujillo)it is just a short step to history repeating itself?
are you suggesting that d.r.will be turning into a dictatorship? led by whom?when?
or do you know something we don't and better should know?or are you suggesting another haitian invasion and occupation like 1822-44?
please some clarification.

 

[rabble rouser]

Re: ummm...I don't know... RR

bd, you are informative as always, perhaps you may want to respond to oneida's post at the top of the board. i would be interested on your thoughts.