2006 Failed States Index released

[NALs]

That's what the Central Bank claims, Nals, but we both know about "inventive bookkeeping", now don't we??

The DR still has an overwhelming debt load to amortize. And the price of oil is going to slow down it's ability to repay that debt unless the Government gets it's act together and produces a competent Government, void of the abject corruption of the past.

Texas Bill

Yes we do.

But, let's quickly analyze this in the possible realities these "bookkeeping" practices are meant to do:

1. If bookkeeping is correct, then it will help increase foreign investment, which bolsters the availability of jobs, creates relative wealth, increases economic activity, so on and so forth.

2. If bookkeeping is misleading, it will help increase foreign investment, availability of jobs, creates relative wealth, and increases economic activity, thus becoming a self fullfilled prophecy. Of course, imminent collapse will only happen if the bookkeeping is misleading and its leaked into the public that it is misleading, otherwise it will have the same effect as correct bookkeeping.

The basic emphasis of any government is to create as many jobs as possible, increases the general wealth of the country, increase the economic activities. Whether through accurate representation of current affairs or the creation of self fulfilling prophecies, the end will be more or less the same.

3. If a government wants to increase aid (for corrupt reasons perhaps), then all it will need to do is falsify negative economic information. Making a country seem worst than it actually is should increase the amount of aid it receives from abroad, such aid first filters down the many hands in government before it reaches the masses, if ever.

And finally, 4. If we were to look at all data as false information, then why would we bother keeping records of all this data? Why would CIA make country studies? Why would the WTO, World Bank, IMF, Interamerican Bank, etc keep record of the progress of countries?

If it's all simply lies, why bother? These are rhetorical questions, although if anyone has an answer, be my guess...

But, what we have is official data and we must make our judgement by what it states, because all the leaders of the world are doing such and they are the one's who make or break the daily lives of the billions alive today and those who will be born in the future.

If the people who have the collective fate of humanity within their hands make decisions based on official data, why would anyone else who does not has the fate of humanity within their power do otherwise?

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

Nals, who said anything about unification? aranoid: Cooperation is not unification.

Without wishing to downplay the DR's undeniable role in helping Haiti, you'll find that aid to Haiti from other countries like Canada and the European Union (yes, them) is significantly greater. Unless you calculate it per capita or in relation to GDP - I'll give you that.

Anyway, it makes a change from you telling us not to be so pessimistic!:cheeky:

 

[NALs]

Nals, who said anything about unification? aranoid: Cooperation is not unification.

Chiri,

On this board, some members use the words cooperation and unification interchangably.

The constant stresses of the similarities, while ignoring the obvious difference which makes each country what it is in all respects, points towards an yearning to unification of one sort or another.

People don't have to say something word for word in order for them to get their message across.

Most DR1 members appear to want more cooperation, ok I'll give you that.

SOME (as in not all) DR1 members wish for something more. How can you tell who is for what?

Well, a member who says "Dominicans and Haitians need to put their differences aside in order to cooperate better with each other" is a DR1 member who believes in more cooperation, but not unification, at least not any time soon.

A member who says "Dominicans don't speak Spanish, but rather a dialect that is hard for other Spanish speakers to understands" is implying some sort of innate similarity with the Haitian reality of having creole, a language in itself that French speakers won't be able to fully understand unless they learn creole. The fact of the matter is that within Spain itself, each region has it's own dialect and some dialects (such as the Basque region's dialect) is so strong that it's almost unintelligible to other Spanish dialects. In fact, what we call Spanish today is nothing more than the language or dialect spoken in Catalonia, I believe. So, obviously each former Spanish colony in the new world will have it's own version of Spanish. There are many idioms and names of things in Mexican Spanish, Argentinian Spanish, Ecuadorian Spanish, etc that a Dominican will have no clue as to what it means, nor would any other Spanish speaker except those who know such dialect.

A dialect is not the same as a different paralleled language. In Haiti they have Creole, a language in itself, and French in DR it's Spanish. A Dominican version of Spanish, but like I said before, Spanish is Spanish. If not, ask the Spaniards themselves, but be careful, the different dialects within Spain could cause some misinterpretations.:cheeky:

In reality, there is a general difference in attitudes between those who simply want cooperation and those who want full fledge unification. Both are easily identifiable, if a person knows what to look for.

Without wishing to downplay the DR's undeniable role in helping Haiti, you'll find that aid to Haiti from other countries like Canada and the European Union (yes, them) is significantly greater. Unless you calculate it per capita or in relation to GDP - I'll give you that.

Of course it will have to be made in relation to per capita GDP. Look, Bill Gates is the greatest philanthropist on the face of the earth right now, donating hundreds of millions of dollars to just causes.

The problem is that the guy has over 50 billion dollars in cash and assets. How great of a philanthropist can he be? Particularly when there are people who give 10 if not 20% of their much smaller income to charity and such?

So yes, in relation to per capita GDP DR help's Haiti the most and even in non quantifiable things, such as asking the world to help Haiti in UN meetings and such the DR does more than most countries, perhaps even more than Haiti does for itself.

Says alot for a country that has always been in fear of Haiti and constantly being blamed as xenophobic and anti-Haitian. Says alot indeed.

Anyway, it makes a change from you telling us not to be so pessimistic!:cheeky:

Well, there is nothing pessimistic about this thread.

Hey, the DR improved on the silly Failed States index. As is typical of the Dominican spirit, this is something to celebrate!

Then again, we don't need much to cause for celebration....:bunny: :bunny:

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

Nals, it's pure ignorance and paranoia to say that people who say that "Haitians and Dominicans have more in common than they care to admit" are advocating unification. What's so sinister or unusual about celebrating common traits between neighbours? All this just reinforces my contempt for nationalism.

The pessimism I referred to was the dampers cast on my optimism about Haiti's potential for rising from the ashes.

 

[NALs]

Nals, it's pure ignorance and paranoia to say that people who say that "Haitians and Dominicans have more in common than they care to admit" are advocating unification. What's so sinister or unusual about celebrating common traits between neighbours? All this just reinforces my contempt for nationalism.

There is nothing unusual aobut celebrating common traits between neighbors, what is unusual is the constant emphasis to push this agenda on both, Dominicans and Haitians.

Let those Dominicans and Haitians who want to celebrate such do so and let those who don't want to celebrate any similarity with any other country no do so. There seems to be an emphasis on pushing all Dominicans and Haitians to doing something that large segments of both populations are not in the "mood" of doing.

If we were to compare Dominican culture with that of Panama or the Caribbean coast of Colombia or of Venezuela we would find plenty fo similarities with Dominican culture as well. There are plenty of similarities with the culture of Cuba and Puerto Rico as well. The DR does not shares similarities just with Haiti and the similarities with the other countries are just as strong as they are to Haiti or any other Latin American country for that matter.

This emphasis to always bring out the similarity with Haiti at the expense of everything else leads to speculation of unification being the motive. Why are people more inclined to brush off the hispanic traits? Why are many foreigners so inclined to do that?

Try telling a Canadian that he/she is nothing more than an extension of the United States. The Canadian government is spending millions on a campaign of television commercial reminding it's people that being Canadian is something unique and wonderful to be in this world. There are more similarities between Canada and US then there are between DR and Haiti. If Canada and US (two wealthy and powerful countries, which together would be even wealthier and more powerful) refuse to unify, then people should not expect of the DR and Haiti, neither from the actions of Dominicans or Haitians. Sure, there are always some exceptions , but there is a reason why they are called exceptions.

The Haitianization of Dominican culture is the same thing Balaguer, the Dominican media, and major Dominican personalities have been complaining for years on end. The fact that many foreigners dismiss those claims and then go on to pin point how Haitianize the country is becoming is hypocritical and, at the same time, implying that a unification is imminent at sometime.

Don't get me wrong, I like Haitians as people. I think they have a vibrant culture, they tend to be very nice and down to earth people and very warm. I will be inclined to help a Haitian in need as I would to any Dominican. But for some people to constantly chant the unification song over and over, that is an insult to both countries founding fathers and an insult to the culture and identity of the people of both countries.

People will never give up in an instant what took hundred of years to create, especially when what has been created in imbedded into the identity and daily experience of anyone's life.

The pessimism I referred to was the dampers cast on my optimism about Haiti's potential for rising from the ashes

Regarding the pessimism, there is always potential. The problem has never been the potential in any given country on earth. The problem has been a lack of either initiative, planning, or vision to take advantage of those potentials and make them a reality.

Whether Haiti will be capable of doing such it's a matter that the Haitians themselves must choose. In the mean time, the DR will offer as much help as it possibly can but it certainly can't give Haiti the complete help it needs because the DR simply does not has the resources to do such.

-NALs

 

[Chris]

Nals, unification? What in heaven's name brought up the unification painpoint?. Let me be less polite than Chiri - your attempts to cover up and hide your own fear and rabid nationalism with a thin veneer of 'higher level assessment' of the 'larger' situation, are painfully obvious. Your projections of what DR1 posters supposedly want and don't want, are misguided beyond belief and exists only in your own imagination. I don't have a dog in this race man. But I do have those pesky humanistic tendencies that really want to see a country and a people get out of a deeply demeaning and miserable existence. If hope is all I can give, then I give that. I think that will make us all stronger instead of weaker. The only person that spoke about similarity, is you in this thread. The rest of us spoke about cooperation. (Sometimes I think I would pay for having Cris Colon's unique ability with words).

An afterthought - we're not supposed to be discussing this. Sorry Mr Moderator.

 

[Mirador]

Many years ago, my wife’s grandparent’s, Chacho and Santa, who live in the village of Carret?n, Ban?, took into their home a Haitian youth from the rural highlands of Haiti’s southeast. He was a ‘cong? cimarr?n’, a culturally backwoods Haitian who had never stepped out of his immediate rural environment. As he learned a little Spanish, I took upon myself to ‘Dominicanize’ him. First, I asked him to change his name, from Ogui Acaigne to something definitely more Spanish sounding. He started calling himself Fernando Alc?ntara. I coached him into observing and imitating every perceptible and even imperceptible nuance of pronunciation, gesture, body movement, etc., that characterize Dominicans. In less than a year, Fernando acted more Dominican than most Dominicans. I then helped him set up a fruit and vegetable stand by the side of the highway, in Las Mar?as. Throughout the years Fernando has visited my home, invariably bringing a gift, a crate full of selected vegetables and fruits. Today, Fernando arrived with his customary crate, After he left, my wife and I joked about what we would do with all those ripe tomatoes, papayas, mangoes, onions, chives, cabbages. Alan was assigned to supply the vodka. Well, today Fernando asked me for a favor. It is worth mentioning that throughout all these years, Fernando is still an illegal alien, and has managed to avoid deportation mostly because of his studied Dominican demeanor. He asked me to drive him to the border and bring his mother into the country. He even offered to pay expenses. It so happens that his mother is from Tomasique, my own father’s birthplace, except that when my father was born Tomasique was Dominican territory…

-

 

[aegap]

Instead of developing the weaker economies in the trading bloc as the EU has done, the FTAs on this side of the pond are aimed at squeezing the remaining juice out of the poorer countries, ...

I would expect better of you than such a ridiculous blanket statement

 

[Chirimoya]

aegap, I did approach the FTA issue with a reasonably open mind, but the more I look into it the more apparent it becomes that the benefits are mostly one-sided.

 

[Chirimoya]

NALs, it goes without saying that if we were discussing Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba, Puerto Rico and whatnot we'd be focusing on the common points as well. But Haiti touches a raw nerve. All I can say is go back and read macocael's post on the subject from last week.

In fact, here it is again. It is worth reposting on a weekly basis just to counteract the jingoistic nonsense we have to endure from other quarters.

NALs, you know I respect you and I Like your posts becuase you think about them, but that has got to be one of the worst statements you have ever posted. Procreate at alarming Rates? What on earth are you talking about!? What, the voodoo-besotted "African devils" cant control their urges so they procreate like rabbits? Do you realize how racist that is? Millions of Haitians in DR? There is not even a million. There are maybe 800,000. Consult FLACSO. Dont get carried away. YOu who are normally so careful of your facts and figures should be especially cautious here because this is a volatile subject and should be handled diplomatically. This kind of exaggerated generalizing just fuels the demagogic rhetoric of Castillo and his Nationalist gang, who have really made a mess of things vis a vis the handling of this grave problem. DR is the victim of a huge influx of Haitians as a result of many factors: the ineptitude of the international community in helping Haiti overcome its problems; the fallout from the expulsion of Aristide and the economic spiralling down of the Haitian economy; the collusion of the army and other sectors such as the agriculturalists, ingenios, and construction in human trafficking of migrant laborers; and also the fact that DOminicans refuse to work as peons, or swing hammers in the construction of the new skyscrapers, or swing machetes para tumbar la ca?a. They instead prefer to pull up stakes and move to the cities or abroad (where they are often treated with the same prejudice and misunderstanding that Haitians experience here. IN Florida, Dominicans cut cane).

Secondly, those of you who wish to safeguard Dominican culture and society against the incursions of the Haitians overlook the fact that the culture of this island is very much a blend of the two nations, and this blending continues apace. Down to the very use of the word Tiguere, which would not be pronounced that way were it not for the Haitians (see Lipe Callado's book), we are living in the midst of a constantly changing and blending, vivid, transformative culture. Haitians and Dominicans have far more in common than, say, a Dominican and a Gallego from Spain, or an Argentinian, or Bolivian, or Mexican, or C0lombian, or Venezuelan. We are Caribbean brothers, we share a small island. We need to help each other, not hate each other.

Vis a vis the hospital stats: those are extremely suspect. First of all the new social security law, which went into effect in October, makes it much harder for these people to get service inthe country's hospitals. They have no papers and there is no provision for them to pay for the services; they are routinely denied service. Secondly this is the second report from a hospital alleging the same basic problem (the first was here in the capital) and these findings are not examined, they are just reported as though they were self evident: they are not in fact. The doctors who make these charges are speaking on their own behalf and do so because they do not want to treat these people, despite the hippocratic oath that should govern their practice (I have been involved in various programs to sensitize these doctors and discuss the problems openly, so I know whereof I speak). The fact is these are just stories, they are exaggerated and they have not ever been scrutinized properly. This is propaganda, not statistical truth.

Ya no hables mas tonter?as.

(sorry NALs, dont wish to be harsh, I should tone it down, but this problem requires diplomacy, sympathy and humanity. Let's all try to be a little more understanding, a little more reflective, and a little more skeptical of the politically motivated statements of a few people who present themselves as authorities but never back their claims up properly. We need to cooperate, not militate.)

 

[Texas Bill]

Yes we do.

But, let's quickly analyze this in the possible realities these "bookkeeping" practices are meant to do:

1. If bookkeeping is correct, then it will help increase foreign investment, which bolsters the availability of jobs, creates relative wealth, increases economic activity, so on and so forth.

2. If bookkeeping is misleading, it will help increase foreign investment, availability of jobs, creates relative wealth, and increases economic activity, thus becoming a self fullfilled prophecy. Of course, imminent collapse will only happen if the bookkeeping is misleading and its leaked into the public that it is misleading, otherwise it will have the same effect as correct bookkeeping.

The basic emphasis of any government is to create as many jobs as possible, increases the general wealth of the country, increase the economic activities. Whether through accurate representation of current affairs or the creation of self fulfilling prophecies, the end will be more or less the same.

3. If a government wants to increase aid (for corrupt reasons perhaps), then all it will need to do is falsify negative economic information. Making a country seem worst than it actually is should increase the amount of aid it receives from abroad, such aid first filters down the many hands in government before it reaches the masses, if ever.

And finally, 4. If we were to look at all data as false information, then why would we bother keeping records of all this data? Why would CIA make country studies? Why would the WTO, World Bank, IMF, Interamerican Bank, etc keep record of the progress of countries?

If it's all simply lies, why bother? These are rhetorical questions, although if anyone has an answer, be my guess...

But, what we have is official data and we must make our judgement by what it states, because all the leaders of the world are doing such and they are the one's who make or break the daily lives of the billions alive today and those who will be born in the future.

If the people who have the collective fate of humanity within their hands make decisions based on official data, why would anyone else who does not has the fate of humanity within their power do otherwise?

-NALs

Nals;

Are you saying then, that the end will justify the means, no matter how misleading or falsIfied?

That's neither good politics nor good government. Such actions only adds to the questionability of the government practicing such dishonorable machinations.
In light of that, do you really question the stated and unspoken reasons for placing the DR in the category of a "FAILED STATE"????
Your "rose colored glasses" need cleaning and you need to have your mouth washed out with a very strong soap.

Texas Bill

 

[NALs]

Nals;

Are you saying then, that the end will justify the means, no matter how misleading or falsIfied?

That's neither good politics nor good government. Such actions only adds to the questionability of the government practicing such dishonorable machinations.
In light of that, do you really question the stated and unspoken reasons for placing the DR in the category of a "FAILED STATE"????
Your "rose colored glasses" need cleaning and you need to have your mouth washed out with a very strong soap.

Texas Bill

1. The Faild States report simply categorized country from most likely to fail to least likely. If you notice, the United States and other first world countries are also ranked.

It's also done by a color code for much easier identification between those more prone to failure vs those that are less prone. Red are the most likely to fail, DR is out of the red. Given what the country went through a few years ago and given that last year it was in the red, being out of it is a big plus!

Let's see what next year's Failed States report ranks the DR, as well as USA, Norway, Haiti, Colombia, China, Japan, etc.

2. I never said such actions were good politics or government, but such actions do occur.

In addition to that, I never stated that the current administration is falsifying information or that it's not.

But the question remains, why would country's bother keeping record and posting data if they are simply going to falsify what they present? What's the point?

There is something to gain from posting statistics and data, much of that is good relations with other countries in order to either spread the influence and interest of one countyr into the other or to receive some type of aid.

Given the DR's position, it would make sense that if the government was falsifying information it would make the country seem worst than it actually is simply based on the fact that it would create enough reason for foreign governments to increase the amount of financial aid (as in money they don't need to pay back).

Why would a government of a poor country want to make the country appear better than it actually is, when that will result in less foreign aid? Aside from bolstering investment, which afterwards becomes a self-propelled and self-fulfilled prophecy (ie. increase investment leads to increase jobs, wealth, etc which causes the "deficit" between the posted statistics and real statistics of the economy to actually shrink, in other words, the false statistics one point in time becomes real later down the road - ie. in 1950s DR had around 3 million people, if the national statistics would have said 7 million it would have been a lie in the 1950s, but not in the 1990s, thus the increase in population between 1950s and 1990s caused the disparity between reality and false information to shrink, assuming all variables remain constant).

The other reason would be that the government is not lying in it's statistics and the Dominican economy actually is how it has been presented by the statistics. As for why would it still remain inconsistent with what the perceptions are?

Well, perceptions are nothing more than unfounded ideas of the state of a country or economy at any given time. For example, if unemployment can drop you would be happy with that news. What you will not know is whether unemployment fell due to increased jobs or increased disenfranchisement from job seekers. Both cause unemployment to drop, but obviously a drop in unemployment is not good news in itself. Why it dropped is more definite of whether it was good news or not. The perception of a drop in unemployment being good is constructed by media sources and such who give part of the story.

Also, government statistics only go as far as the formal economy can give. In the DR, half if not more of the economy is informal. That means beyond government statistical records, beyond any data what-so-ever. Government statistics in this case would be measuring the well being of the formal economy, which is not always in conjunction with the performance of the informal economy.

However, that does not means the government statistics are incorrect, but simply only a sample of the legalized, formal sector of the national economy.

I think this is clear enough, but please if it's not, ask away.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

NALs, it goes without saying that if we were discussing Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba, Puerto Rico and whatnot we'd be focusing on the common points as well. But Haiti touches a raw nerve.

Who exactly are the "we" you mention?

The same DR1ers bolstering of the Haitian influence or different DR1ers which bolster of the different countries which the DR has similarities with?

Who says what and how often is something worth considering prior to grouping every DR1er into the "DR is compared favorably with other coutnries by all DR1ers, just as all DR1ers favorably compare the DR with Haiti" brush.

All I can say is go back and read macocael post's on the subject from last week.

I've read his post several times and it's saying nothing more than DR is becoming Haitianized and that Haitianization is reason enough for cooperation beyond what has been done in the realm of cooperating with Haiti and it's problems, in addition to the problems the DR has to deal with right now on its own.

It's the same jargon Balaguer wrote in his book. Macocael simply used non-offensive words and encouraged the further Haitianization rather than Balaguer's call for preserving Dominican culture.

However, I have never seen a post from Macocael recognizing anything about the DR other than the connections the country has to Haiti, as if that is the only country the DR has a similarity.

Why does he not post anything about the similarities (and there are many) the DR has with the Afro-Colombians (ie. Caribbean coast of Colombia), Afro-Panamanian, Afro-boricuas, Afro-cubans, etc. Why does he only see's the connection with Haiti and not those other places?

Every place I listed has a strong Afro-hispanic culture either as a dominant or a regional type. The fact that people here failed to see THAT connection says alot of how quickly people here judge anything a Dominican might say regarding comparison's done of the DR with Haiti and no other country with an Afro-Hispanic culture.

In addition to that, I am still waiting for his response which he said he was going to do, he only answered the very same question he said does not merits an answer and he did not answered the questions he said he would answer.

People here need to respond to the things I say/post on this board and stop responding TO ME.

There is a difference between a person responding to what has been said and/or a person responding to the person saying such thing. There is a clear difference. One is based on the actual information presented and the other is based on speculation of what the person saying such thing believes.

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

Who exactly are the "we" you mention?

The same DR1ers bolstering of the Haitian influence or different DR1ers which bolster of the different countries which the DR has similarities with?

Who says what and how often is something worth considering prior to grouping every DR1er into the "DR is compared favorably with other coutnries by all DR1ers, just as all DR1ers favorably compare the DR with Haiti" brush.

Those of us on DR1 who have first-hand experience to draw from, having visited one or more of these places and are therefore able to compare and contrast the DR with Haiti, Venezuela, Colombia and Puerto Rico.

It's been done on the forum, but as it isn't controversial it doesn't stir up as much of a stink as the DR-Haiti threads.

Tell you what. Go to a certain DR culinary site and look through the article archive: there you'll find articles about Venezuelan, Jamaican, Haitian, Cuban, and Virgin Islands cooking, in which gastronomic customs and traditions are analysed from a DR perspective. We're hoping someone will contribute one about PR soon. There is no singling out of Haiti, just a recognition that the DR and the surrounding countries share many cultural characteristics, while each has its particular idiosyncracies.

I've read (macocael's) post several times and it's saying nothing more than DR is becoming Haitianized and that Haitianization is reason enough for cooperation beyond what has been done in the realm of cooperating with Haiti and it's problems, in addition to the problems the DR has to deal with right now on its own.

It's the same jargon Balaguer wrote in his book. Macocael simply used non-offensive words and encouraged the further Haitianization rather than Balaguer's call for preserving Dominican culture.

However, I have never seen a post from Macocael recognizing anything about the DR other than the connections the country has to Haiti, as if that is the only country the DR has a similarity.

Why does he not post anything about the similarities (and there are many) the DR has with the Afro-Colombians (ie. Caribbean coast of Colombia), Afro-Panamanian, Afro-boricuas, Afro-cubans, etc. Why does he only see's the connection with Haiti and not those other places?

Every place I listed has a strong Afro-hispanic culture either as a dominant or a regional type. The fact that people here failed to see THAT connection says alot of how quickly people here judge anything a Dominican might say regarding comparison's done of the DR with Haiti and no other country with an Afro-Hispanic culture.

In addition to that, I am still waiting for his response which he said he was going to do, he only answered the very same question he said does not merits an answer and he did not answered the questions he said he would answer.

Well, I'm sure macocael will have a thing or two to say about that, although he appears to be too busy to post these days. With reference to the para I bolded, I would hazard that maco, unlike certain others we might mention, is not an armchair theorist and may not, for all we know, have direct experience or detailed knowledge of the people and places you list (Afro-Colombians, Afro-Panamanian, Afro-Boricuas, Afro-Cubans). He definitely does have this depth of knowledge about the DR and Haiti, hence his frame of reference.

People here need to respond to the things I say/post on this board and stop responding TO ME.

There is a difference between a person responding to what has been said and/or a person responding to the person saying such thing. There is a clear difference. One is based on the actual information presented and the other is based on speculation of what the person saying such thing believes.

-NALs

You reap what you sow.:cheeky:

 

[NALs]

Those of us on DR1 who have first-hand experience to draw from, having visited one or more of these places and are therefore able to compare and contrast the DR with Haiti, Venezuela, Colombia and Puerto Rico.

Yes, I know that.

However, those who do that are few and far between. Usually, there are those who recognize all the similarities DR has to other countries along with Haiti and then there are those who only see similarities between DR and Haiti and nothing more.

Well, I'm sure macocael will have a thing or two to say about that, although he appears to be too busy to post these days. With reference to the para I bolded, I would hazard that maco, unlike certain others we might mention, is not an armchair theorist and may not, for all we know, have direct experience or detailed knowledge of the people and places you list (Afro-Colombians, Afro-Panamanian, Afro-Boricuas, Afro-Cubans). He definitely does have this depth of knowledge about the DR and Haiti, hence his frame of reference.

Very good speculation, but Maco only knows the real answer, in addition to why he has not answered the questioned he promised he will and why he answered the one he said merits no answer.

You reap what you sow.:cheeky:

Yes indeed, of course, pride does takes over after a while.

(before commenting on this response of mine of the "reap what you sow" quote, please do a quick research on the definition of pride and how can a person detect pride in others, then you will see exactly what I mean by my response. BTW, by you I mean DR1ers in general, not you per se).

-NALs