He didn't actually. However, given my scientific background I will propose to him to estimate using standard statistics and geneology what time in the past could we expect to have full blooded Tainos present here.
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a question about dominican heritage
He didn't actually. However, given my scientific background I will propose to him to estimate using standard statistics and geneology what time in the past could we expect to have full blooded Tainos present here.
Perhaps it makes sense at this time to re-read one of the last posts written by the expert Baracutay from the thread "Tainos in DR", and bring this taino thing into some perspective.
my bold
my bold
Rather, perhaps it makes better sense to not take Baracutei's response out of contect. Here is the question by souljalyn:
I may of asked this before but is there a possibility of a pure Taino out in DR? I mean Its hard to think of it but I dont doubt this possibility at all I mean there were still Tainos being recorded living in DR in the late 1800's, so it is not too far fetched...where would the best survival areas be?
Remember this is the original question posted by Mr Lu:
As for the "pure blooded" Tainos into the 1800's I'd like to see where you got that from?
Nice try though, primo.
What is the nice try all about primo?? You just cleared up some loose ends very nicely. After all it was you who brought up the 1800's issue just like before that the other member souljalyn did, which in turn to that assertion Baracuatay cast a big doubt.
And btw you stated the 1800's thing on this forum first not Mr Lu. Mr Lu was just asking where did you get that from and now we know.....souljalyn....thanks.
Don't try to wiggle out of this statement....
And btw you stated the 1800's thing on this forum first not Mr Lu. Mr Lu was just asking where did you get that from and now we know.....souljalyn....thanks.
Don't try to wiggle out of this statement....
Rather, perhaps it makes better sense to not take Baracutei's response out of contect. Here is the question by souljalyn:
I may of asked this before but is there a possibility of a pure Taino out in DR? I mean Its hard to think of it but I dont doubt this possibility at all I mean there were still Tainos being recorded living in DR in the late 1800's, so it is not too far fetched...where would the best survival areas be?
Remember this is the original question posted by Mr Lu:
As for the "pure blooded" Tainos into the 1800's I'd like to see where you got that from?
Nice try though, primo.
You've left us all waiting for your response. Where did you get the info from? We aren't arguing that the possibility exist, especially since you use your "expert" status to defend the comment, we just want to know where, and in what academic context did you read that pure blooded Tainos were alive well into the 1800's. That's all. Otherwise, your argument falls by the wayside. I've read the thread, as you have ask me to do, and the thread in itself disproves your claim. In that thread even the "expert" contradicts your assertion, so where are you pulling your info from? Myself, Hidalgo and others are waiting.
Mr. Lu
Another interesting thread! Thank you all for your contributions. I am sorry I have been away for a a while, but I have been Mr. Mom while my wife recovers from recent surgery!
I want to take this moment to explain myself about the possibility of there being "full blooded" indians in the DR after the 1800's. I have stated in the past that their never were pure blooded Tainos. By this I meant that Tainos, just like the Spaniards and Africans who came after, were a mixture of many different peoples themselves, just as Dominicans are today.
I understand the notion of "full blooded Indian", but given the fact that what we understand of as Race-pure, full or mix blood, etc is only now being truly comprehended by geneticists. It appears that the more we discover of the human genome, the farther away we get from concepts of purity, etc. For example the Saami people of Norway and the Berbers of Morroco although being seperated by thousands of miles and no clear linkage, have been found to be genetically linked. In fact all humans are.
But to answer the question of whether or nor there were any Tainos of full blooded lineage left in the DR after the 1800's, the answers would have to be-How would anyone one know?? Who was looking for these people? Who at this time in DR history was documenting anything on Taino genetic, cultural or linguistic survival and continuities? Were there any bonafide expert witnesses that could say NO THERE WERENT? I think not. In fact there isnt any such record. But if you take close look at the literature of the time you will find numerours references that indicate that at least at face value, there might have been. While I certainly cannot state that these instances were of full blooded Indians, no one can truthfully say there werent any, Not without expert testiminoy. Below are some references:
As a consequence of the New Laws (1542) that gave the Aboriginal People total freedom, some small villages were created in which surviving groups of Tainos and their descendants resided in. So is the case of the towns of Boya and Banica (where in 1744 ?one can see some Indians still?) in what is now the Dominican Republic and also in Guanabacoa, Cuba. As it appears in ?Tainos and Caribs, the aboriginal cultures of the Antilles, page 244? by Sebastian Robiou Lamarche. Editorial punto y coma Apartado 19802, San Juan , Puerto Rico 00910. 2003And this by Jose Marti: War Diaries of Jose Marti: Part 1- From MonteCristi, Dominican Republic to Cap-Haitian, February 14, 1895, page 354
Related to the narractive above:
In the mid 1800?s a Spanish ship rescued 200 Yucatan Indians who had been stranded by the French on Tortuga Island. These Indians were taken to live at the town of Boya, perhaps, because there was an Indian contingent already there? In ?La Encyopedia de la Cultura Dominicana?, book B, page 282.
And this by Jose Marti:
War Diaries of Jose Marti: Part 1- From MonteCristi, Dominican Republic to Cap-Haitian, February 14, 1895, page 354
?La Esperanza, made famous by Columbus?s route, is a hamlet of palms and yaguas on a wholesome stretch of level ground encircled by mountains. La Providencia (Providence) was the name of the first general store back in Guayubin, the one that belonged to a Puerto Rican husband, who had some yellowing antique, medical books and a fresh young Indian girl with marble profile, an uneasy smile, and flaming eyes, who approached our stirrups to hand cigars up to us. And in La Esperanza we dismounted in front of La Delicia. From within, General Candelario Lozano, his hair too long and his pants too short, comes to open the gate- ?la pueita? is how he says puerta- for our mounts. He isn?t wearing socks and his shoes are made of leather, He hangs up his hammock?War Diaries, Cuba, April 23, 1895 Page 389?.?But why do these Cubans fight against Cubans? I?ve seen that it isn?t a matter of opinion or some impossible affection for Spain.? ?They fight, the pigs, they fight like that for the peso they?re paid, one peso a day, less the lodging that?s deducted. They?re the bad seed of the little villages, or men who have a crime to pay for, or tramps who don?t want to work, and a handful of Indians from Baitiquiri and Cajueri?Page 390-Since el Palenque they?ve been following our tracks closely. Garridos Indians could fall on us here. Jose Marti, Selected Writings, edited and translated by Esther Allen, 2002, Penguin Classics
All the best
Baracutay
I want to take this moment to explain myself about the possibility of there being "full blooded" indians in the DR after the 1800's. I have stated in the past that their never were pure blooded Tainos. By this I meant that Tainos, just like the Spaniards and Africans who came after, were a mixture of many different peoples themselves, just as Dominicans are today.
I understand the notion of "full blooded Indian", but given the fact that what we understand of as Race-pure, full or mix blood, etc is only now being truly comprehended by geneticists. It appears that the more we discover of the human genome, the farther away we get from concepts of purity, etc. For example the Saami people of Norway and the Berbers of Morroco although being seperated by thousands of miles and no clear linkage, have been found to be genetically linked. In fact all humans are.
But to answer the question of whether or nor there were any Tainos of full blooded lineage left in the DR after the 1800's, the answers would have to be-How would anyone one know?? Who was looking for these people? Who at this time in DR history was documenting anything on Taino genetic, cultural or linguistic survival and continuities? Were there any bonafide expert witnesses that could say NO THERE WERENT? I think not. In fact there isnt any such record. But if you take close look at the literature of the time you will find numerours references that indicate that at least at face value, there might have been. While I certainly cannot state that these instances were of full blooded Indians, no one can truthfully say there werent any, Not without expert testiminoy. Below are some references:
As a consequence of the New Laws (1542) that gave the Aboriginal People total freedom, some small villages were created in which surviving groups of Tainos and their descendants resided in. So is the case of the towns of Boya and Banica (where in 1744 ?one can see some Indians still?) in what is now the Dominican Republic and also in Guanabacoa, Cuba. As it appears in ?Tainos and Caribs, the aboriginal cultures of the Antilles, page 244? by Sebastian Robiou Lamarche. Editorial punto y coma Apartado 19802, San Juan , Puerto Rico 00910. 2003And this by Jose Marti: War Diaries of Jose Marti: Part 1- From MonteCristi, Dominican Republic to Cap-Haitian, February 14, 1895, page 354
Related to the narractive above:
In the mid 1800?s a Spanish ship rescued 200 Yucatan Indians who had been stranded by the French on Tortuga Island. These Indians were taken to live at the town of Boya, perhaps, because there was an Indian contingent already there? In ?La Encyopedia de la Cultura Dominicana?, book B, page 282.
And this by Jose Marti:
War Diaries of Jose Marti: Part 1- From MonteCristi, Dominican Republic to Cap-Haitian, February 14, 1895, page 354
?La Esperanza, made famous by Columbus?s route, is a hamlet of palms and yaguas on a wholesome stretch of level ground encircled by mountains. La Providencia (Providence) was the name of the first general store back in Guayubin, the one that belonged to a Puerto Rican husband, who had some yellowing antique, medical books and a fresh young Indian girl with marble profile, an uneasy smile, and flaming eyes, who approached our stirrups to hand cigars up to us. And in La Esperanza we dismounted in front of La Delicia. From within, General Candelario Lozano, his hair too long and his pants too short, comes to open the gate- ?la pueita? is how he says puerta- for our mounts. He isn?t wearing socks and his shoes are made of leather, He hangs up his hammock?War Diaries, Cuba, April 23, 1895 Page 389?.?But why do these Cubans fight against Cubans? I?ve seen that it isn?t a matter of opinion or some impossible affection for Spain.? ?They fight, the pigs, they fight like that for the peso they?re paid, one peso a day, less the lodging that?s deducted. They?re the bad seed of the little villages, or men who have a crime to pay for, or tramps who don?t want to work, and a handful of Indians from Baitiquiri and Cajueri?Page 390-Since el Palenque they?ve been following our tracks closely. Garridos Indians could fall on us here. Jose Marti, Selected Writings, edited and translated by Esther Allen, 2002, Penguin Classics
All the best
Baracutay
Thank you...
First, I hope your wife's recovery goes well. Best wishes
Now on to the topic at hand.
I have read through your previous posts and your recent posting and have found them very interesting and educational. As you have cleared up some confusions some of us might have had. Your final assertion that there were or weren't any full blooded Tainos will always be left up to argument because as you have stated there was no one around to determine this fact and the technology was also limiting in terms of clearly establishing "purity" has much truth to it.
Having said this I will continue to argue that there weren't full blooded Tainos well into the 1800's and if there were "full blooded" the population would have been limited at best, not enough to be a sizable.
I argue this based on a few things you have said. First the concept of "purity" in itself is flawed so "purity" really doesn't exist, as you have said. Second of all one could argue that the killing of the Indians during the first hundred years of Spanish conquest reduced the Taino population by the nth degree. The remaining Tainos either intermixed and married or ran up into the woods.
Now the Tainos in the woods could have lived a few generations isolated in the mountains, but I doubt that a large percentage of the surviving group could have lasted 300 years living in the mountains of the DR. I would finally argue that the full blooded Taino was a fallacy more than anything is because looking like an Indio doesn't mean full blooded, it just means there are remnants. Now your references are interesting and I wish I could provide some of my own, but unfortunately I don't have any of my books and I am not a Wiki whore who looks up all my info online. (This is not a knock on anyone)
Why does any of this concern me, or anyone at all? Well, my interest in this is to have a clearer picture of the Dominican cultural/historical make up. I think most who post on the subject are genuinely concerned with learning about the DR and its culture and are worried about letting the already fragile legacy of the Taino die without clearly cataloging it and understanding the importance it had on our development as a people and a country.
But having said that I am always concerned that people will argue the Taino defense not as a way to add to the cultural make up of the country but to mask the African heritage so clear in the DR and continue with that defined relationship that some Dominicans have i.e "we are Taino and Spanish and have nothing to do with Africa." Now I am not proposing anyone here has done that. To the contrary I believe we have continued the discussion as a way of learning, which I appreciate. I am just voicing a concern that I have when I hear some say they are just Taino or Spanish. I agree that we have Taino in us, we can't deny that, but some could use that as a crutch and I think it's important to keep it clear so that we can appreciate all our cultural heritage.
Baracutay, if I may ask, what is your specific field. Do you teach on the subject or is it a personal interest? Just asking.
Oh and by the way, where's Chip? Dude, the discussion has continued and you have stayed quiet on the subject, though it was your comment that brought us here. Step your game up. Baracutay has provided some great stuff as have some other posters so I am waiting on the defense of your comment.
Mr. Lu
First, I hope your wife's recovery goes well. Best wishes
Now on to the topic at hand.
I have read through your previous posts and your recent posting and have found them very interesting and educational. As you have cleared up some confusions some of us might have had. Your final assertion that there were or weren't any full blooded Tainos will always be left up to argument because as you have stated there was no one around to determine this fact and the technology was also limiting in terms of clearly establishing "purity" has much truth to it.
Having said this I will continue to argue that there weren't full blooded Tainos well into the 1800's and if there were "full blooded" the population would have been limited at best, not enough to be a sizable.
I argue this based on a few things you have said. First the concept of "purity" in itself is flawed so "purity" really doesn't exist, as you have said. Second of all one could argue that the killing of the Indians during the first hundred years of Spanish conquest reduced the Taino population by the nth degree. The remaining Tainos either intermixed and married or ran up into the woods.
Now the Tainos in the woods could have lived a few generations isolated in the mountains, but I doubt that a large percentage of the surviving group could have lasted 300 years living in the mountains of the DR. I would finally argue that the full blooded Taino was a fallacy more than anything is because looking like an Indio doesn't mean full blooded, it just means there are remnants. Now your references are interesting and I wish I could provide some of my own, but unfortunately I don't have any of my books and I am not a Wiki whore who looks up all my info online. (This is not a knock on anyone)
Why does any of this concern me, or anyone at all? Well, my interest in this is to have a clearer picture of the Dominican cultural/historical make up. I think most who post on the subject are genuinely concerned with learning about the DR and its culture and are worried about letting the already fragile legacy of the Taino die without clearly cataloging it and understanding the importance it had on our development as a people and a country.
But having said that I am always concerned that people will argue the Taino defense not as a way to add to the cultural make up of the country but to mask the African heritage so clear in the DR and continue with that defined relationship that some Dominicans have i.e "we are Taino and Spanish and have nothing to do with Africa." Now I am not proposing anyone here has done that. To the contrary I believe we have continued the discussion as a way of learning, which I appreciate. I am just voicing a concern that I have when I hear some say they are just Taino or Spanish. I agree that we have Taino in us, we can't deny that, but some could use that as a crutch and I think it's important to keep it clear so that we can appreciate all our cultural heritage.
Baracutay, if I may ask, what is your specific field. Do you teach on the subject or is it a personal interest? Just asking.
Oh and by the way, where's Chip? Dude, the discussion has continued and you have stayed quiet on the subject, though it was your comment that brought us here. Step your game up. Baracutay has provided some great stuff as have some other posters so I am waiting on the defense of your comment.
Mr. Lu
Many Jews settled in Sos?a after the Holocaust was over...and in Saman? there exists a large amount of residents who were previoulsy African American slaves who came from the south. It was likely, however that they weren't 100% African...most people are aware that many women were raped by there White (European-blooded) slave owners during this time, thus resulting in plenty of blood mixing. Later on, while they settled in Saman?, it was likely that they had relations with the people who were already on the island, thus creating an even richer fusion of cultures and even more blood-mixing.
my bold
I agree with much of what you wrote about the Taino link to Dominican heritage being brought to the front while ignoring the African. Balaguer through his writings and Trujillo through his massacre were big purveyors of the Taino heritage because basically they were down and out racist. Lest not forget that the Dominican Republic got its independence from Haiti not Spain thus the minimizing of anything having to do with color.
That being said Baracutay very eloquently has cleared up the Taino existence to the 1800's. Don't take the following the wrong way. I know that discussing ideas sometimes can get heated, but when you get down to it there is no need to provoke. Points have been made, lets move on.
Thank you very much Mr. Lu, my wife is actually getting much better. Again thank you.
Yes to the topic at hand!
Well Mr. Lu I will answer your post to the best of my ability. I see that you did indeed read through my post, but I apologize for not conveying properly what my sentiment is on this subject. Yes I stated that there is no way to know for sure, but I should have said there is no way to know for sure if there were any pure/full blooded Indians at the present time. All that can be said in either case (yours or mine) is that recent DNA tests (which have confirmed that up to 20 percent of Dominicans have mtDNA that is Native) confirm that there is indeed a Native American sub-stratum in our mists today. Remember a few years ago many argued that there was not a SINGLE drop of Native blood on the island. So my professional opinion is that as the DNA studies get more extensive it is apt to show that the Taino must have remained ?pure? in isolated communities for longer than was ever thought possible. In fact for all we know there may be a few families that my be relatively ?pure?.
If you compare similar areas of the USA with the DR where Natives remained isolated you will find varying degrees of purity with some populations being more ?pure? than others. In the DR there are regions where even to this day there are no roads. Can you imagine how these inaccessible areas must have been say 5-10-15 generations ago?
You can continue to argue the point, but your argument seems to be based on speculation fueled my historical sources that for all intents and purposes were not concerned with purity of blood either and quite frankly a little outdated. In addition you say that you will continue to argue that Tainos population at best would have been small and not sizable. Again what is conclusion being based on? If there is no current genetic data neither supporting your hypothesis or mine, I find it odd that you can as a matter of fact to say this.
Also you write that in agreement with me that purity does not exist, yet Tainos are always held to this standard. Let me ask you, how can you be sure that a person who looks either African or White is really a full blooded member of these ?races?? Certainly there are many Dominicans that have strong Indian phenotypes. So if we conclude that person who looks Indian might not necessarily be Indian, then the same applies to people who ?look? black or white. Can you honestly assume that just because a Dominican looks black then he is Black? Is the answer is yes, then why the double standard when I say the same about the Indian?
Yes the Taino ran off into the mountains this is a historical fact. What is not in our history books is the date and time when the ?last? Taino died off. This is so simply because it never happened. I thank you for looking at my references and I will await for you to post some of you own. But in the meantime you can go to my website and look at these sources A Chronology of Taino Cultural and Biological Survival . All I ask is not to take my word for it, but research it yourself. The historical evidence to the contrary is there and actually (to me) even more intriguing than the genetic evidence that supports my statements.
Finally if you had read my previous posts you would know that I am far from anti- African. On the contrary I personally believe that Dominicans are probably more of a Afro/Taino mixture than anything else. I just like you with Africans, am concerned when people deny the Indian just for the sake of denying the Indian. Certainly history has treated the Taino very unfairly (extinction myths, etc). But if you take a closer holistic view of Taino survival, added to the increasing genetic evidence you will find that the extinction of the Indian is the greatest myth created by historians who are now being challenged by DNA evidence.
3200 words of Taino extraction exist in the Caribbean today. Our material culture in the campo is amazingly of Taino extraction, from the crops we grow, Yuca, mapuey, Cahuil, leren, etc. to the making of casabe, Guayiga, yamagui, chen-chen, Mabi, cacheo, makuto, andullo, etc etc etc are of Taino extraction. How long would it take an extinct population in your opinion to stop influencing the modern DR to the extent the Taino have?
As for my field, I work at the Smithsonian Institution National Museum of the American Indian as a Workshop Coordinator and Historical Researcher. What is my field of expertise? The Caribbean! I have been doing research on this subject for 25 years now. So I like you find the Wikipedia thing as kind of a joke, since information is changed on it by anyone.
All the best
Baracutei
Yes to the topic at hand!
Well Mr. Lu I will answer your post to the best of my ability. I see that you did indeed read through my post, but I apologize for not conveying properly what my sentiment is on this subject. Yes I stated that there is no way to know for sure, but I should have said there is no way to know for sure if there were any pure/full blooded Indians at the present time. All that can be said in either case (yours or mine) is that recent DNA tests (which have confirmed that up to 20 percent of Dominicans have mtDNA that is Native) confirm that there is indeed a Native American sub-stratum in our mists today. Remember a few years ago many argued that there was not a SINGLE drop of Native blood on the island. So my professional opinion is that as the DNA studies get more extensive it is apt to show that the Taino must have remained ?pure? in isolated communities for longer than was ever thought possible. In fact for all we know there may be a few families that my be relatively ?pure?.
If you compare similar areas of the USA with the DR where Natives remained isolated you will find varying degrees of purity with some populations being more ?pure? than others. In the DR there are regions where even to this day there are no roads. Can you imagine how these inaccessible areas must have been say 5-10-15 generations ago?
You can continue to argue the point, but your argument seems to be based on speculation fueled my historical sources that for all intents and purposes were not concerned with purity of blood either and quite frankly a little outdated. In addition you say that you will continue to argue that Tainos population at best would have been small and not sizable. Again what is conclusion being based on? If there is no current genetic data neither supporting your hypothesis or mine, I find it odd that you can as a matter of fact to say this.
Also you write that in agreement with me that purity does not exist, yet Tainos are always held to this standard. Let me ask you, how can you be sure that a person who looks either African or White is really a full blooded member of these ?races?? Certainly there are many Dominicans that have strong Indian phenotypes. So if we conclude that person who looks Indian might not necessarily be Indian, then the same applies to people who ?look? black or white. Can you honestly assume that just because a Dominican looks black then he is Black? Is the answer is yes, then why the double standard when I say the same about the Indian?
Yes the Taino ran off into the mountains this is a historical fact. What is not in our history books is the date and time when the ?last? Taino died off. This is so simply because it never happened. I thank you for looking at my references and I will await for you to post some of you own. But in the meantime you can go to my website and look at these sources A Chronology of Taino Cultural and Biological Survival . All I ask is not to take my word for it, but research it yourself. The historical evidence to the contrary is there and actually (to me) even more intriguing than the genetic evidence that supports my statements.
Finally if you had read my previous posts you would know that I am far from anti- African. On the contrary I personally believe that Dominicans are probably more of a Afro/Taino mixture than anything else. I just like you with Africans, am concerned when people deny the Indian just for the sake of denying the Indian. Certainly history has treated the Taino very unfairly (extinction myths, etc). But if you take a closer holistic view of Taino survival, added to the increasing genetic evidence you will find that the extinction of the Indian is the greatest myth created by historians who are now being challenged by DNA evidence.
3200 words of Taino extraction exist in the Caribbean today. Our material culture in the campo is amazingly of Taino extraction, from the crops we grow, Yuca, mapuey, Cahuil, leren, etc. to the making of casabe, Guayiga, yamagui, chen-chen, Mabi, cacheo, makuto, andullo, etc etc etc are of Taino extraction. How long would it take an extinct population in your opinion to stop influencing the modern DR to the extent the Taino have?
As for my field, I work at the Smithsonian Institution National Museum of the American Indian as a Workshop Coordinator and Historical Researcher. What is my field of expertise? The Caribbean! I have been doing research on this subject for 25 years now. So I like you find the Wikipedia thing as kind of a joke, since information is changed on it by anyone.
All the best
Baracutei
It seems that no one's considered that identity is often a two-way street, and can/is often be a matter of performance as well. As we all know, what it means to be Dominican can be very different depending on who you ask. In any case...I'm intrigued by the strict definition of what it means to be Dominican that you seem to be employing, Mr. Lou. Given your position on the place of an ex-pat in the discussion of Dominican identity, I'm curious to know how the issue of political citizenship fits into this view. For instance, when one legally renounces the citizenship of his/her country of birth in order to apply for/receive the citizenship of another country in which (s)he resides, (s)he can legally claim that country. In this particular case, it would mean that a person born in the US that is granted Dominican citizenship is (at very least, on paper) Dominican. While I realize that this is generally not the case with ex-pats, I'm wondering how this complicates your ideas of identity. Similarly, in what ways does/can a person claim cultural citizenship? To whom do we grant (and deny) this right and for what reasons? How does your definition of "Dominican" account for these discrepancies?
I for one totally agree with many of these statements above. In any event, Identity is and should be a personal issue. Its one thing to label ourselves, but when we label others and usually from our own biased perspectives we only complicate matters.
When I speak about Taino bilogical, cultural or linguistic survivals, I am in no way implying that all Dominicans are Taino. Even if they "look" the part, it is by no means my place to tell anyone that they are or are not. I believe that if Dominicans, given the pure facts as to all of their ancestries, lineages and histories, one would find that we would not see ourselves collectively racially. But as a Nation we are all Dominican, a tripartite Nation of people, whether one identifies with Spanish, Taino, African, and this includes of course recent migrations and people who have naturalized etc
all the best
Baracutei