- Thread starter AZB
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A thief bites the dust. street justice.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you.This thief now bites the dust.
Now, all we have to do is get rid of that Nals thread, asking if DR1ers are all perverts, and we can appear normal again.
This is manhattan we're talking about. I've seen 'homeless' people in manhattan who own cellphones. My friend also once saw some guy in run down clothing who was 'homeless' and asking for money, stand up, change into a nice shirt from his knapsack and drive off in a mercedes that just so happend to be parked across the street.
If you stand in manhattan at any given point in time you're likely to have at least several thousand people walk past you per hour. Let's say you're holding a homless sign and 3000 people walk by in the span of one hour. Let's say that every other minute (120 seconds) someone hands you a dollar. That's only 1% of the people that walked by and odds are you'll make $30 in per hour you're standing out there holding a sign (depending on your appearance).
most likely what you have seen may have been some heroin junkies or something of that nature.
wow this thread went through some interesting twists. GringoCarlos, I felt that you laid it out nice and clear, let those who have ears, hear it. That is exactly correct. I work with these people, I know them intimately, and I understand their pressures. These are not excuses, as another member pointed out, but they do serve as motivating factors that we need to come to terms with in order to grasp the situation and deal with it effectively. And the situation is going to be come much worse. I saw the same forces at work in Rio in the 90s, and the pattern is repeating itself here. Take a tour of the margins of the capital if you care to see up close the kind of conditions under which these people live: those are favelas, pure and simple. The hills are not as high as those in Rio,b ut otherwise they look and feel pretty much the same. The desperation inside those barrios is palpable.
I am not excusing the thieves; I would deal with them, mano a mano, as harshly as anyone I know. But it is well to understand that this country was founded on exploitation and oppression, and those basic themes havent really changed much over the centuries.
I am not excusing the thieves; I would deal with them, mano a mano, as harshly as anyone I know. But it is well to understand that this country was founded on exploitation and oppression, and those basic themes havent really changed much over the centuries.
macocael;
Your last sentence in your post is very revealing as to the "mind set" of the government here.
Yeah, I know, get off my soap box and geat real. But that is the history of the DR.
That alone has made the DR into a nation of "takers" who, when confronted with the insupportable dilemmas that they face daily, resort to "taking" what they perceive as their right in order to survive until the next "victim" presents themselves.
The expression of "its hard to think about draining the swamp when you're up to you're a$$ in alligators" is very appropo here in the DR.
But is it necessarily appropriate to continue to "identify the problem" without designing the cure and implementing it?
The cure is obviously to create and/or facillitate more jobs for those who don't have them.
Why is it, then, that a Hatiano can find work where a Dminican can't? Would a Dominican rather starve himself and his family rather than take a job he consideras to be demeaning, like working with his hands, mixing concrete, laying bricks, pulling weeds in the rice fiesld, cutting cane?
I find it ludicrous to accept such excuses. I call them that because that is exactly what they are. It is a rataionalization that has no place in anyone's mind; a symbol of rhetoric by politicians that the people have been led to believe for a long time. BTW, US politicians try the exact same thing by telling people they don't have to accept such employment because the government will feed them anyway. That's against all basic principals of survival and is the most degrading thing in the world.
I'll shut up---
Texas Bill
Your last sentence in your post is very revealing as to the "mind set" of the government here.
Yeah, I know, get off my soap box and geat real. But that is the history of the DR.
That alone has made the DR into a nation of "takers" who, when confronted with the insupportable dilemmas that they face daily, resort to "taking" what they perceive as their right in order to survive until the next "victim" presents themselves.
The expression of "its hard to think about draining the swamp when you're up to you're a$$ in alligators" is very appropo here in the DR.
But is it necessarily appropriate to continue to "identify the problem" without designing the cure and implementing it?
The cure is obviously to create and/or facillitate more jobs for those who don't have them.
Why is it, then, that a Hatiano can find work where a Dminican can't? Would a Dominican rather starve himself and his family rather than take a job he consideras to be demeaning, like working with his hands, mixing concrete, laying bricks, pulling weeds in the rice fiesld, cutting cane?
I find it ludicrous to accept such excuses. I call them that because that is exactly what they are. It is a rataionalization that has no place in anyone's mind; a symbol of rhetoric by politicians that the people have been led to believe for a long time. BTW, US politicians try the exact same thing by telling people they don't have to accept such employment because the government will feed them anyway. That's against all basic principals of survival and is the most degrading thing in the world.
I'll shut up---
Texas Bill
the soapbox
Texas Bill, dont get down off the soap box on my account. By no means. I appreciate hearing what you have to say. Which member was it whose father in law reportedly told him that this country is a land of thieves, was founded by thieves and is run by thieves even today? well, there is in fact something to that.
Btw, just to be clear, I am not by any means condoning sloth, and there is enough of it here, to be sure. And i dont want to be interpreted as saying that all the thieving and delinquency is coming from these barrios, where obviously there is a problem, but not a universal cause of our social ills. By no means. (though I was interested to read in a recent DR1 news capsule that a couple taiwanese students were murdered as they worked in the farm fields of Bonao -- their murderers a couple idiots from Villa Mella). No, I say more jobs (better pay too) and also more education. Education can work wonders to divert potential delinquents into more fruitful endeavors -- because it opens up a person's mind, gives them ideas and options. Anyway, it's a start.
Texas Bill, dont get down off the soap box on my account. By no means. I appreciate hearing what you have to say. Which member was it whose father in law reportedly told him that this country is a land of thieves, was founded by thieves and is run by thieves even today? well, there is in fact something to that.
Btw, just to be clear, I am not by any means condoning sloth, and there is enough of it here, to be sure. And i dont want to be interpreted as saying that all the thieving and delinquency is coming from these barrios, where obviously there is a problem, but not a universal cause of our social ills. By no means. (though I was interested to read in a recent DR1 news capsule that a couple taiwanese students were murdered as they worked in the farm fields of Bonao -- their murderers a couple idiots from Villa Mella). No, I say more jobs (better pay too) and also more education. Education can work wonders to divert potential delinquents into more fruitful endeavors -- because it opens up a person's mind, gives them ideas and options. Anyway, it's a start.
I'm a lefty, Liberal. A psychiatric nurse by profession who now works for a charity that supports people who have physical disabilities, so that will do for comment on the actual video etc...
However, a few years ago (about 5) here in the UK, motorcycle theft was not treated seriously by the police. It got so bad that people kept their bikes inside their house if they could (we're talking "motor bikes" not 'mopeds') The police attitude was simply, you're insured, make a claim. Obviously, the fact that insurance premiums went through the roof if you did claim was irrelevant.
So, in some areas bikers set up 'vigilantes'. They'd set a 'honey trap', same guy ride and park a bike, chain it to a lamp post and leave it over night. His mates would take it in turns to spend the night in a van close by. When a thief turned up, they'd grab him and throw him in the van, then drive off. They'd use cable ties around his wrists and ankles, then beat the crap out of him before dumping him back onto a pavement.
The police here don't like vigilantes, so they put more effort into vigilante groups than bike thieves. But, as a mix of the vigilantes & increased police patrols, the theft of bikes dropped rapidly. Now bike theft is treated seriously as they realised that the bikes were being stolen and broken up by people who were funding drug smuggling etc, they were all tied up together. And now the vigilantes aren't needed.
The point being, the system failed the people, so the people took control. If the system is made to work, then there is no need for people to take matters into their own hands. To me, that's the same in the first world, rich countries or a third world, developing country.
However, a few years ago (about 5) here in the UK, motorcycle theft was not treated seriously by the police. It got so bad that people kept their bikes inside their house if they could (we're talking "motor bikes" not 'mopeds') The police attitude was simply, you're insured, make a claim. Obviously, the fact that insurance premiums went through the roof if you did claim was irrelevant.
So, in some areas bikers set up 'vigilantes'. They'd set a 'honey trap', same guy ride and park a bike, chain it to a lamp post and leave it over night. His mates would take it in turns to spend the night in a van close by. When a thief turned up, they'd grab him and throw him in the van, then drive off. They'd use cable ties around his wrists and ankles, then beat the crap out of him before dumping him back onto a pavement.
The police here don't like vigilantes, so they put more effort into vigilante groups than bike thieves. But, as a mix of the vigilantes & increased police patrols, the theft of bikes dropped rapidly. Now bike theft is treated seriously as they realised that the bikes were being stolen and broken up by people who were funding drug smuggling etc, they were all tied up together. And now the vigilantes aren't needed.
The point being, the system failed the people, so the people took control. If the system is made to work, then there is no need for people to take matters into their own hands. To me, that's the same in the first world, rich countries or a third world, developing country.
From what I gather it seems that the vigilante groups were well organized. Anybody killed? And if not the groups made sure of that. The problem in the DR is that these attacks are mob ruled, no organization and the authorities still are not motivated to do their civic duty.
What is the big deal. The person premeditated the crime and did it. His actions were a detriment to society. So he got beat up a little. I like it. He could have went to prison and got gang raped. I think he got off easy. Likewise I see nothing wrong with the bikers setting up a trap. Guy comes along and starts breaking the chain. Pretty difficult to see this for anything other than what it is. He is a thief. So you give him a whipping and dump him on the street. He learns a good lesson. When it comes to crime I am a hard core conservative. I don't believe prisons should be plush. I don't believe prisoners should be able to sit around and watch tv, go to gym, go to library, etc. Thief kills someone during a breakin. That person will never have an opportunity to kick back and watch tv again. But the killer gets to watch Bugs Bunny on a Saturday Morning. The street justice was fair. Actually from what I saw it was light. I hope he did take more of a beating berfore the camera rolled.
I read recently that in the US, out of a total population now approaching 300 million, there is about 7 million folks now in prison or on parole, which amounts to 1 out of every 32 individuals. The rationale is obvious, lower the crime rate by putting everybody in jail... Imprisonment is useless to reduce crime, maybe it even encourages it... If you as me (Yes, me, the left-handed threaded ultra-conservative, parapsychiatric unregistered healer, I would bring back the pillory, even the rack, and public hangings...
I read recently that in the US, out of a total population now approaching 300 million, there is about 7 million folks now in prison or on parole, which amounts to 1 out of every 32 individuals. The rationale is obvious, lower the crime rate by putting everybody in jail... Imprisonment is useless to reduce crime, maybe it even encourages it... If you ask me (Yes, me, the left-handed threaded ultra-conservative, parapsychiatric unregistered healer, I would bring back the pillory, even the rack, and public hangings...
it is all relative
When a cell phone is stolen here for the average dominicano it is an investment of upwards of a months salery. In relation to North American stadards it is like stealign a used car. Many cases it is a lifeline.
John
When a cell phone is stolen here for the average dominicano it is an investment of upwards of a months salery. In relation to North American stadards it is like stealign a used car. Many cases it is a lifeline.
John
LOL!!
I won't go replying on a prison v non-prison argument, partly because of staying on topic and partly because it's too complicated to sum up in less than an essay.
The point being vigilantes exist when the state isn't protecting the people. It's not to do with 'first world' or 'third world'. Vigilantes will increase until the government is able or willing to take responsibility for them.
thugs verses people
Regardless of the type of government, Socialist, totalitarian, Monarchy, democratically elected or warlord a basic expectation of the population is that the government has some kind of effective police force so the people are safe from crime.
When the people do not trust the police or worse yet know the police are part of the problem then the only source of justice is self imposed. We know that in the society here a thug will walk the streets again and probably have the name and address of the accuser supplied by the local cop on the street that is his normal protection. So not only was the mob making sure he did not get away they were making sure the thug knew that because he was friends with the police he was still going to get justice.
JOhn
Regardless of the type of government, Socialist, totalitarian, Monarchy, democratically elected or warlord a basic expectation of the population is that the government has some kind of effective police force so the people are safe from crime.
When the people do not trust the police or worse yet know the police are part of the problem then the only source of justice is self imposed. We know that in the society here a thug will walk the streets again and probably have the name and address of the accuser supplied by the local cop on the street that is his normal protection. So not only was the mob making sure he did not get away they were making sure the thug knew that because he was friends with the police he was still going to get justice.
JOhn
B
batich
Guest
Could you share where you read it, please? Last figure that I heard was - 3.8% of the total US population. And that it is the highest ratio of imprisonment in the world. I was shocked. But I did not see any proof so far.
Also, there is no by chance data on police-to-population ratio in USA and in other countries?
I cannot find these figures anywhere but also was told that the budget of NYPD is bigger than one of the United Nations.
I really want to see a reliable source of info and not roumors!
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