BIEN DICHO (el Nuevo Herald)

[Marianopolita]

Quisqueya...

You bet it's an interesting topic and others who are from Montreal on this board s/b able to relate. I could attest for the mixing of English and French in Montreal and sometimes it's incredible the level of mixing between the two languages. However, academic French is taught in Quebec. Most people are not aware of this fact but colloquial Quebec French is hard for people to understand if they are not used to it.

You are right that it's inevitable in a bilingual environment but I personally think being the language person that I am one should draw the line because overtime that's how a language disappears. Latin is an example to all having split into four spoken languages (at least). As well, I always advise people that if you are speaking one language don't mix words because it becomes a bad habit. If you are speaking English, French or Spanish keep them separate. As well even if two people are speaking in different languages to each other that's alright but they should never mix the two. For example, if a friend speaks to you in English and you reply in French that's fine but mixing is what creates the breakdown. That's where I see a problem with the English/ French combo in Montreal and English/ Spanish combo in the USA.

Quisqueya at the end of the day the responsibility lies on the speaker to be conscious of the way s/he speaks. Simple as that. Montreal is one the largest tri-lingual cities in the word due to the fact that English/ French is required and most people have a native language due to the high immigrant population. As well, I noticed people who have studied a language meaning those who have a strong academic foundation don't mix languages to the degree that people who learned either above mentioned language off the street.

What's wrong with 'computadora' over 'ordenador'?

LDG.

 

[Quisqueya]

Lesley D,

I am amazed to see the mixing of the two languages in montreal. I have family that lives there and the younger ones "born there" speak pure "joual" like an average québécois(e) amongst their friends but know better to talk like that at home. Numerous times I have to say "excusez-moi " because of the pronunciaiton not too much the mixing since, I too, speak english.


Hey toé, t'as raison. At the end of the day it's up to the speaker to decide.... Mais, les choses se sont détériorées à tel point qu'ils ne savent même plus déceler une faute. Many hispanohablantes in the USA have this problem...but, as you mention those with strong academic foundation mix languages less. Now with saying that do you think they should teach spanish side by side with english in the USA(which they are already doing)? Off topic, but I would like to know your opinion..PM me if you want..

BTW, there isn't anything wrong with using "computadora" rather than "ordenador" but since I am a francophone and use ordinateur the latter sounds better to me...but some hispanohablante have know idea that "ordenador" means "computadora"..

 

[andrea9k]

That's why I said 'mainly' in Argentina and Mexico. I knew I had heard it somewhere else but wasn't sure where.

Is it in Peru that they say 'chompa' for sweater (as in jumper)?

Yes! It has been more than 7 years I have not needed to say that word :classic: nor chalina... poncho... abrigo... calefacci?n... even brrr

I wish I would never need them again!

Jess

 

[Stodgord]

..but some hispanohablante have know idea that "ordenador" means "computadora"..

Although it is a correct form, it is the first time I hear it. It should not reflect bad on me or any other spanish spearker, because the only word for I have heard and learn since I have uso de razon (sorry I don't know how to translate that, at this moment) is Computadora. I have heard of the masculine form "un computador or el computador" but never as "ordenador".

"el ordenador" to me sounds weird in Spanish. To me is like the person who arrange or order things.

In Italian, the computer word is considered foreign and this is why they call it
"il computer". They don't even try to assign a more Italian souding word.

 

[Marianopolita]

Quisqueya

I think it's okay if I answer your question briefly here since Anna has always been open minded about language discussions.

No one truly understands the language mix in Montreal unless one lives in that environment. I love Montreal- punto final... but some people can't handle it because of the language requirements. However, there is nothing more rich than knowing how to speak another language because the culture goes along with it. It's like a 2 for 1 deal.

Anyway to answer your question about teaching Spanish in schools in the USA side by side- por supuesto. Why not? In certain areas Spanish is so prevalent in the USA that it s/b an open option to all. I don't know if there are any International schools in the USA. That certainly would cover the requirement. I think bilingual education in the USA is a viable option and of course it would lessen the issues that we currently see with 'loan translations' that really make no sense. That's where the RAE really struggles because the loan translations are originating mostly outside of Europe but the Real Academia decides whether these borrowed words and phrases s/b accepted 'officially' into the Spanish language or not. In my opinion loan translations could be used if they do not change the semantic meaning in the target language as stated in the article in my second post. If the semantic meaning is lost then the deterioration of the language begins as you mentioned.

My example in my second post dejar saber was one that always used to bother a professor that I had and she would stop the conversation until the word avisar was used which is the correct word to express 'to notify' someone.

Anyway as always Quisqueya it's pleasure to chat with you.

Saludos,

Lesley D

 

[Quisqueya]

Stogford

Thank you for being honest but like you said it doesn't reflect bad on you nor other spanish speakers. It's just that most hispanohablantes are not exposed to the correct usage of words due to the common use of the word "computadora" which is an americanised way of saying computer...or using a loan translation.....believe me i've heard things like "el ruf" instead of "el techo"...which is horrible...

 

[Marianopolita]

Quisqueya...

One interesting aspect about Spanish spoken in Montreal and Toronto is that is has not deteriorated to the degree that it has in the USA. The first time I ever heard a variation of techo was in the USA and many other words. For example janguear and 'building' instead of edificio. Spanish spoken in Canada's two largest cities is still quite good but for how long?

LDG.

Thank you for being honest but like you said it doesn't reflect bad on you nor other spanish speakers. It's just that most hispanohablantes are not exposed to the correct usage of words due to the common use of the word "computadora" which is an americanised way of saying computer...or using a loan translation.....believe me i've heard things like "el ruf" instead of "el techo"...which is horrible...

 

[Quisqueya]

I love the mix of montreal...I just can't deal with the winter...LOL...Indeed there is nothing richer than knowing how to speak another language..I dont know but it just transforms your (well my) way of thinking..also to pick up a book in its original language is so much better to read than a translated version..words lose value and feelings when translated..well at least I think so which is the main issue too much loan translation...

 

[Chirimoya]

Computadora is the Latin American Spanish term, and ordenador(a) is what they say in Spain. I don't think either can be considered correct or incorrect, there are many recognised variations between vocabulary across regions in all languages that are spoken in more than one country.

Another contemporary example would be mobile phones: 'Celular' is used in Latin America, taking it's cue from 'cellphone' in the US. 'Movil' is used in Spain, as in 'mobile' in the UK. Meanwhile, 'movil' is crossing over to this side, thanks to European companies like Orange exporting their terminology.

 

[Quisqueya]

Yes you are so so right..I was more impressed with the spanish spoken in montreal than the french...well, Lesley D you have to understand that most of the hispanics that migrated to Canada are/were well educated (I am referring to the early migration of hispanohablantes)...allthough this wave has drastically changed but not as bad as USA...


QUOTE=Lesley D]One interesting aspect about Spanish spoken Montreal and Toronto is that is has not deteriorated to the degree that it has in the USA. The first time I ever heard a variation of techo was in the USA and many other words. For example janguear and 'building' instead of edificio. Spanish spoken in Canada's two largest cities is still quite good but for how long?

LDG.[/QUOTE]

 

[hugoke01]

Computador(a) ..ordenador

Computador and computadora but ordenadora doesn't exist . Spain only uses ordenador (m)

​

Computadora is the Latin American Spanish term, and ordenador(a) is what they say in Spain. I don't think either can be considered correct or incorrect, there are many recognised variations between vocabulary across regions in all languages that are spoken in more than one country.

Another contemporary example would be mobile phones: 'Celular' is used in Latin America, taking it's cue from 'cellphone' in the US. 'Movil' is used in Spain, as in 'mobile' in the UK. Meanwhile, 'movil' is crossing over to this side, thanks to European companies like Orange exporting their terminology.