Bribing is the norm - Pay or Don't play

jstarebel

Silver
Oct 4, 2013
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Wooo. I am so scared. :eek: I have been stopped before and have never offered a bribe. The government should offer a decent living wage. I do agree with that. The willingness to pay a bribe is on the individual. Whosoever wants to do that has a choice to do so or not to, but I choose not to. My point is a simple one. When does the bribing stop? A few pesos or a million dollars. It's so ridiculously ingrained in the culture. I know of government workers who are fearful that bribes will be offered to them and by them saying no, are fearful that they would be labeled the bad guy or the troublemaker. Again, to each his own. I choose not to.

I'll post the same question to you considering that the OP was discussing entering the country by boat and not talking about police, but Customs and Immigration officials. How many times have you tried not paying propina when entering the country by private boat? Would you not pay the small propina necessary to have your entrance and exit go smoothly or would you not pay it knowing that they will leave you hanging to where you could not check in, couldn't leave, and there was a distinct possibility that your $150k boat could be impounded by customs? I understand and agree with your principals, but when do principals take a back seat to the practicalities at hand? What would you be willing to risk to uphold your principals?
 

Cdn_Gringo

Gold
Apr 29, 2014
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I think most people choose to live by their principles most of the time. If sailing to this island puts my boat at risk if I choose not to reward corruption, then I simply wouldn't bring my boat here. This really isn't a question of degree, it is a question of right vs wrong. Those who are willing to do wrong to advance their own interests are the reason why the criminals persist in doing what they do to such a large extent.

It is profitable to keep boaters on edge and afraid of "what may happen". Boaters need to accept their part in this dance and maybe make different decisions. When you start justifying these payments based on the amounts involved or you begin to accept them as routine you really are making your own bed that you will have to sleep in.

If the boats stop coming, the officials will eventually realize they have gone too far and their cash well is dry. It will be back to rice & beans. Small crimes lead to bigger crimes. Victims have to choose not to be easy victims. If it can't be done within an environment of fairness and honest fees, then that means boats shouldn't come here. If drivers are so scared of the system they eagerly pay a bride, then that means they shouldn't be driving here. The corrupt officials know that doormats are for walking all over and they sure know what what a doormat looks like. Even if you choose the expedient route and pay, that doesn't excuse the extortion and make the practice anymore legitimate or acceptable.
 

Derfish

Gold
Jan 7, 2016
4,441
2
0
I think most people choose to live by their principles most of the time. If sailing to this island puts my boat at risk if I choose not to reward corruption, then I simply wouldn't bring my boat here. This really isn't a question of degree, it is a question of right vs wrong. Those who are willing to do wrong to advance their own interests are the reason why the criminals persist in doing what they do to such a large extent.

It is profitable to keep boaters on edge and afraid of "what may happen". Boaters need to accept their part in this dance and maybe make different decisions. When you start justifying these payments based on the amounts involved or you begin to accept them as routine you really are making your own bed that you will have to sleep in.

If the boats stop coming, the officials will eventually realize they have gone too far and their cash well is dry. It will be back to rice & beans. Small crimes lead to bigger crimes. Victims have to choose not to be easy victims. If it can't be done within an environment of fairness and honest fees, then that means boats shouldn't come here. If drivers are so scared of the system they eagerly pay a bride, then that means they shouldn't be driving here. The corrupt officials know that doormats are for walking all over and they sure know what what a doormat looks like. Even if you choose the expedient route and pay, that doesn't excuse the extortion and make the practice anymore legitimate or acceptable.

Well since I felt that they were unfair I didn't pay the four tickets I had accumulated over the last 18 months I was there. I was concerned that mayhaps they'd gig me at the airport for them, but they didn't. SO this is actually different than paying a bribe,but not that much. I just didn't pay fines nor arive in court to fight them.
Der Fish
 

jstarebel

Silver
Oct 4, 2013
3,330
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83
I think most people choose to live by their principles most of the time. If sailing to this island puts my boat at risk if I choose not to reward corruption, then I simply wouldn't bring my boat here. This really isn't a question of degree, it is a question of right vs wrong. Those who are willing to do wrong to advance their own interests are the reason why the criminals persist in doing what they do to such a large extent.

It is profitable to keep boaters on edge and afraid of "what may happen". Boaters need to accept their part in this dance and maybe make different decisions. When you start justifying these payments based on the amounts involved or you begin to accept them as routine you really are making your own bed that you will have to sleep in.

If the boats stop coming, the officials will eventually realize they have gone too far and their cash well is dry. It will be back to rice & beans. Small crimes lead to bigger crimes. Victims have to choose not to be easy victims. If it can't be done within an environment of fairness and honest fees, then that means boats shouldn't come here. If drivers are so scared of the system they eagerly pay a bride, then that means they shouldn't be driving here. The corrupt officials know that doormats are for walking all over and they sure know what what a doormat looks like. Even if you choose the expedient route and pay, that doesn't excuse the extortion and make the practice anymore legitimate or acceptable.

Very true. Boaters have stopped coming for over a decade now. Some do, but look at the amount of open slips at any marina and that tells the story. Unfortunately this has not changed anything with regards to the corruption and deception that goes on when checking in via the ocean.

This raises a other question to the boaters looking to enjoy the many wonders of the DR or in my case as well as several boaties in Luperon, Samana, and PC which is, " what do we do when we come home"? Yes, there are several of us that call DR home, and we have to deal with the bribes and corruption every time we sail home after a circumnavigation, and we still face these same risks I pointed out earlier every single time.

I've yet to get an answer to my question raised to those who hold their principals in such high regard as to how much are you willing to risk to not have to stoop to the level of paying a little propina? Getting a ticket for standing your ground is one thing, but what if it was your home? Would any of you on this thread placing your principals in high regard risk your homes or several thousand dollars in order not to pay 1,000 pesos in propina to squash the issue completely? This is exactly the decision boaters make every single time they check in and out of the DR. Quite a difference from a ticket, or even when getting scammed for an accident I think.

Some DR home owners pay security companies to watch over their homes, or hire someone to live in and keep an eye on things so that they don't come home to an empty home. Boaters pay the port officials to watch over their boat when they are tied up to a dock and not aboard. Of course security is included at the Marina's, but this "Propina" is necessary to insure your electronics is still aboard when you return the same way that security is paid inside of the gated communities.

It's hard to describe what we boaters go through to be able to live this lifestyle. As with everything in life, there is a price to pay and ours unfortunately has greater risks with regards to bribes than do those living a normal life ashore. The biggest difference is the huge investment we have into our portable floating homes which are much more at risk than is a persons home which puts a completely different spin on ones principals regarding bribery and "propina" and to compare our situation to someone living ashore dealing with bribery and corruption is like comparing a banana to a pair of pliers.
 

jstarebel

Silver
Oct 4, 2013
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I also wish to make a point of how the DR isn't as bad as many countries contrary to what is sometimes thought by expats living or travelling here especially by boat. Below is an excerpt from a fellow mariner who was checking out of Turkey and the fees and funny business that he had to put up with which is huge compared to coming and going in the DR.

"I have just completed 3 months cruising in Turkey, having bought my boat there in December.

The Antalya agent who set up my transit log charged me €400 (yes Euro, not Lira) because "boat had new owner".

When I left Datca yesterday, the agent there claimed there was a stamp missing on the paper work, so I must pay a penalty of €200 plus his fees. When I asked for a receipt I was told it would take time and I would have to stay longer.

So €625 in fees.

At the same time as going though exit prodedures, the local harbour police started hassling me, forcing me to buy a new Turkish flag (old one was ok but had a minor fray). I suspect in cahoots with the agent so I didn't challenge the "penalty".

If this expense wasn't a scam, then the fees are shocking.

By comparison, I entered Greece in Symi, did all clearances myself in less than an hour, total costs €45, and really helpful and friendly immigration staff and harbour police."
 

Cdn_Gringo

Gold
Apr 29, 2014
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I've yet to get an answer to my question raised to those who hold their principals in such high regard as to how much are you willing to risk to not have to stoop to the level of paying a little propina?

I did give you my answer. I wouldn't bring my boat here. If home for me is the DR I guess I do not live on my boat full time. I would have a birth somewhere advantageous and fly home or take the ferry from Puerto Rico for example.

Convenience should not be the sole criteria used in determining whether or not to compromise one's principles of fair play and justice for all. Sometimes we are forced to choose the down right inconvenient option because of circumstances outside our control. When we do, we complain and protest but in the end, we sleep well knowing while we are a hostage to a corrupt system, whenever possible we do not encourage this injustice or make it worse.

I guess it comes down to this: If a moral path to a particular destination cannot be navigated without compromising one's personal integrity, it is not a path that can be considered. Everyone makes up their own mind. This is the foundation that some belief systems are based on - individual life choices with one having to account for those choices in the end (judgement day).
 

cbmitch9

Bronze
Nov 3, 2010
845
8
18
I think most people choose to live by their principles most of the time. If sailing to this island puts my boat at risk if I choose not to reward corruption, then I simply wouldn't bring my boat here. This really isn't a question of degree, it is a question of right vs wrong. Those who are willing to do wrong to advance their own interests are the reason why the criminals persist in doing what they do to such a large extent.

It is profitable to keep boaters on edge and afraid of "what may happen". Boaters need to accept their part in this dance and maybe make different decisions. When you start justifying these payments based on the amounts involved or you begin to accept them as routine you really are making your own bed that you will have to sleep in.

If the boats stop coming, the officials will eventually realize they have gone too far and their cash well is dry. It will be back to rice & beans. Small crimes lead to bigger crimes. Victims have to choose not to be easy victims. If it can't be done within an environment of fairness and honest fees, then that means boats shouldn't come here. If drivers are so scared of the system they eagerly pay a bride, then that means they shouldn't be driving here. The corrupt officials know that doormats are for walking all over and they sure know what what a doormat looks like. Even if you choose the expedient route and pay, that doesn't excuse the extortion and make the practice anymore legitimate or acceptable.

Thank you CDn_Gringo!! Well said!!
 

cbmitch9

Bronze
Nov 3, 2010
845
8
18
I'll post the same question to you considering that the OP was discussing entering the country by boat and not talking about police, but Customs and Immigration officials. How many times have you tried not paying propina when entering the country by private boat? Would you not pay the small propina necessary to have your entrance and exit go smoothly or would you not pay it knowing that they will leave you hanging to where you could not check in, couldn't leave, and there was a distinct possibility that your $150k boat could be impounded by customs? I understand and agree with your principals, but when do principals take a back seat to the practicalities at hand? What would you be willing to risk to uphold your principals?

If that's the case then I would not take my boat to the DR. Why feed the corrupt beast if it goes against what I believe?
 

jstarebel

Silver
Oct 4, 2013
3,330
333
83
If that's the case then I would not take my boat to the DR. Why feed the corrupt beast if it goes against what I believe?

The DR offers so much to the boaters, and the corrupt beast as you refer to is everywhere in most countries including the beloved USA and all of its territories. Why should I allow the corrupt beast as you refer to win and keep me from living my life as I wish experiencing everything and seeing every place especially when the DR beast is so much cheaper than many others. I highly doubt you would stand by your principals and high moral values you speak of if the outcome could cost you say a thousand US and paying the bribe to make the issue go away only cost 500-1,000 pesos. If I'm wrong, then my hats off to you, and I bow to you as a piller of society who stands against injustice world wide. I'll continue paying pocket change when necessary and enjoying my life issue free.
 

Kipling333

Bronze
Jan 12, 2010
2,528
829
113
Thank goodness we seem to have reached a conclusion on this subject... some people will not bring their boat here if they have to pay a propina and others are happy to pay a propina to ensure smooth entry and egress and safety of their boat while docked here .
As a frequent traveler , I will grease palms everywhere where it is the norm, just to travel peacefully..I am a pragmatist .
 

Derfish

Gold
Jan 7, 2016
4,441
2
0
If that's the case then I would not take my boat to the DR. Why feed the corrupt beast if it goes against what I believe?

Note the new thread where someone is saying that the 92 million dollars that Oderbrecht got in bribes was well worth it?
 
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