Canadian killed in Punta Cana

[genistar]

Uh... yes, they should be prosecuted in the Dominican Republic because the crime happened IN the Dominican Republic. The nationalities of those involved doesn't matter. Don't worry about the expense involved... it won't amount to much. The Dominican Republic doesn't coddle their prisoners... they don't even provide food. If prisoners want to eat, they gotta pay or ask their families to send them money.

 

[Ezequiel]

Uh... yes, they should be prosecuted in the Dominican Republic because the crime happened IN the Dominican Republic. The nationalities of those involved doesn't matter. Don't worry about the expense involved... it won't amount to much. The Dominican Republic doesn't coddle their prisoners... they don't even provide food. If prisoners want to eat, they gotta pay or ask their families to send them money.

Canada doesn't have a freezing cold prison in Nunavut where they can put them? Our prison a pretty overcrowded already.

 

[citynights]

In my opinion, the DR should not waste a single penny trying to prosecute them. The DR should deport them back to Canada, and let Canada prosecute them and spend the money jailing them as no Dominican was involved in the whole drama.

This is DR...& it will be DR justice...when you kill somebody you will pay the piper...check out all stats where ex pats have killed another ex pat....they are all in jail paying the price ....& folks these are dominican jails we are talking here...not some canadian jail where you can be out in two to five years...plus it will cost the families of the jailed alot of money...just to make jail bearable for them....if you think they are going to get a get out of jail card...
look what happened to that kid that just got in a traffic accident with a rental car... there was only a small injury involved in that...

 

[allforoneoneforall]

Can you link that article please, that's a different take I have yet to read. I'm not trying to defend the alleged killers, just saying in 40 years I have never seen an innocent person get attacked by 5 people for no reason. I suspect Mr. Morrison was also drinking heavily, I suspect he was no stranger to fights & I suspect he was involved with the girl in question on some level to trigger the jealousy.

Not directed at you Bob, but it seems some people simply WANT to make this about those dirty Algerians (As they WANTED to make it about those dirty French Canadians before) & they WANT to believe Morrison was viciously attacked while acting heroically & that may be the case? Or it may not be? He might have gotten into a drunken scrap & come out the loser. Also not sure why any new info that comes out is automatically being discarded as defense team propaganda? Why is it so inconceivable that a 19 year old kid w/ a troubled past would be drinking & fighting? What is far more unbelievable to me is that he did nothing to instigate & was the victim of a pre-meditated killing. Also, I'm sure his Aspergers (Sp?) is an issue but let's not paint it like he was in a wheelchair or something. The kid was an avid skateboarder & set to enlist in the Army, so he had to have been physically/mentally capable.

My real point is that some here seem to have already convicted these young men (Mostly based on their Nationality) without even considering the fact that there's two sides to every story.

I think maybe this will help you see what and how aspergers teens think, ..your right he did not have an outward physical disability, but the lack of social skills that asperger kids have is a HUGE disability and can't be ruled out as to why he even approached these people and put him self in that situation....as the mother of a 15year old aspergers son..they do not see things the way we do...in his mind i am sure he was defending a girl, that simple...not even thinking of the fallout or the out come because they don't think that way.
please read the following..

Asperger Teens:
Unlike a lot of other teens with autism spectrum disorders, most Asperger teens want to interact socially and have friends. The lack of social skills can be learned by these teens but their inability to pick up nonverbal signs, ?read ? others behavior and poor communication skills makes it hard for them to be successful.

They may feel different and can experience anxiety when approaching other teens, always wondering why they have such a hard time fitting in. Trying to fit in can be a frustrating process and teens with Aspergers can be drained emotionally from this. It can cause anxiety or depression and may lead to social withdrawal. They may also be immature for their age, too naive and too trusting, which makes them an easy target for teasing and bullying.

Some teens may be shy or intimidated, talk too little and are extremely sensitive to criticism and need continual reassurance. They may think that the things that others do accidentally (such as bumping into them) are done deliberately to upset them.

Other Aspies can be blunt, interrupt their peers and take over a conversation to talk about their area of personal interest.

If they have been diagnosed earlier it is possible for them to learn social skills if they feel accepted within their peer group. Most Asperger teens are able to develop friendships.

 

[IslandDreaming]

It would seem reasonable that since the victim was a Canadian citizen they could be tried and convicted of murder once released and returned. "Double jeaopardy" laws usually don't extend beyond national borders. I don't know about Canada but most countries don't place a statute of limitations on homicides.

And most countries do not try to enforce laws not committed within their jurisdiction

I'm not trying to be demeaning, but some here don't seem to realize that the DR is a sovereign nation and anyone committing a crime in that nation is subject to it's laws, not the laws of his home country

would you expect a person who was arrested for DUI in the DR to be removed to Canada and tried? He/she would have not violated any law in Canada any more than these 5 have violated any Canadian Law

I am aware there are certain pornography laws that now involve International cooperation but murder is not one of them

If these men were to some how find their way back to Canada I'm afraid they would be free and clear of any legal punishment as they have not committed any crime against Canada

 

[IslandDreaming]

In my opinion, the DR should not waste a single penny trying to prosecute them. The DR should deport them back to Canada, and let Canada prosecute them and spend the money jailing them as no Dominican was involved in the whole drama.

What law did they violate in Canada?

 

[Major448]

What law did they violate in Canada?

Causing the death of a Canadian citizen (and I will add "potentially", since all are innocent until proven guilty????)

 

[IslandDreaming]

Causing the death of a Canadian citizen (and I will add "potentially", since all are innocent until proven guilty????)

IN CANADA is the concept some seem to have trouble grasping. Canada has no authority to enforce it's laws on Dominican soil.

I don't know Canadian Law, but like variations in US State laws I am willing to wager there are some things you can do legally in Newfoundland that would be illegal in Quebec

The entire argument/misunderstanding etc is t the alleged crime took place in the DR, the charged person committed a crime against Dominican Republic and it's people, NOT Canada

If the alleged persons were citizens of the USA, should they be returned to the USA or Canada to face charges? If a Russian Citizen killed a Canadian in Moscow would you expect the Russian to be sent to Canada for prosecution?

I believe that since the victim and perpetrators are all Canadian there seems to be some confusion that Canada has some sort of control or interest. actually, the only "interest" Canada is likely to have is trying to assure that the accused are fairly treated but that is completely and irrevocably up to Dominican authorities

 

[Major448]

IN CANADA is the concept some seem to have trouble grasping. Canada has no authority to enforce it's laws on Dominican soil.

I don't know Canadian Law, but like variations in US State laws I am willing to wager there are some things you can do legally in Newfoundland that would be illegal in Quebec

The entire argument/misunderstanding etc is t the alleged crime took place in the DR, the charged person committed a crime against Dominican Republic and it's people, NOT Canada

If the alleged persons were citizens of the USA, should they be returned to the USA or Canada to face charges? If a Russian Citizen killed a Canadian in Moscow would you expect the Russian to be sent to Canada for prosecution?

I believe that since the victim and perpetrators are all Canadian there seems to be some confusion that Canada has some sort of control or interest. actually, the only "interest" Canada is likely to have is trying to assure that the accused are fairly treated but that is completely and irrevocably up to Dominican authorities

I agree that the DR is sovereign. It pains me when some forget that, However IN THE US (and probably CANADA as well), this sort of situation happens more often than we think. For example ... TV producer of US woman murdered in Mexico 'racked up $5k phone-sex bill' | Mail Online

Not hard to understand, really.

.

 

[CaptnGlenn]

Causing the death of a Canadian citizen (and I will add "potentially", since all are innocent until proven guilty????)

the point island dreaming is trying to make is that the crime is not against Canada's laws if it doesn't happen in Canada, no matter who is involved. Also, I don't know about D.R. law, but assumption of innocence is not universal. Each nation has their own laws... heck, even within nations, local laws can differ. For instance, in the U.S. murder is NOT a federal crime, (except in some specific instances), and is tried by the individual states.

 

[Major448]

the point major is trying to make is that the crime is not against Canada's laws if it doesn't happen in Canada, no matter who is involved. Also, I don't know about D.R. law, but assumption of innocence is not universal. Each nation has their own laws... heck, even within nations, local laws can differ. For instance, in the U.S. murder is NOT a federal crime, (except in some specific instances), and is tried by the individual states.

No, my point was that the local country (DR) has first crack at it. Otherwise, it can then go to the country of citizenship, if they choose to extradite. (See example of a man who may have killed his wife -- in Mexico).

Of course, I am assuming that a Canadian (according to your understanding of the law) would not be able to just take his wife, or someone else, into international waters (local country doesn't matter in this case), and kill her without Canada having some say. But I will defer to you two on Canadian law.

 

[CaptnGlenn]

I agree that the DR is sovereign. It pains me when some forget that, However IN THE US (and probably CANADA as well), this sort of situation happens more often than we think. For example ... TV producer of US woman murdered in Mexico 'racked up $5k phone-sex bill' | Mail Online

Not hard to understand, really.

.

if you read the article that link goes to, it explains that the MEXICAN prosecutor is trying to extradite the (American) man BACK to Mexico where the crime was allegedly committed. He was not extradited to the U.S. He FLED Mexico, (they were holding his passport... so I don't know how he got back in the U.S.... but whatever)... he fled Mexico to the U.S. to avoid prosecution. Again... the government of the country in which a crime is committed is who prosecutes that crime, NOT the government of the country of citizenship.

 

[Major448]

if you read the article that link goes to, it explains that the MEXICAN prosecutor is trying to extradite the (American) man BACK to Mexico where the crime was allegedly committed. He was not extradited to the U.S. He FLED Mexico, (they were holding his passport... so I don't know how he got back in the U.S.... but whatever)... he fled Mexico to the U.S. to avoid prosecution. Again... the government of the country in which a crime is committed is who prosecutes that crime, NOT the government of the country of citizenship.

Now, US law IS different. He COULD be tried in the US, which, as you say, is different from Canada.

But I understand what you're saying. A Canadian can only be tried in the country where he committed the crime. If he leaves, he cannot be tried in Canada. We'll leave it at that, and get back to the original thread.

passive personality principle (international law) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
The Ash Twins Blog ? Note on Victim-Nationality Jurisdiction
Personal jurisdiction over international defendants in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Frank A. Rubino: Miami Criminal Lawyer, Drug Charges, White Collar Crime, Internet Crimes

.

 

[la_barbie]

Let me guess....you did NOT go to Law school :tired:

No smartass... They didnt discuss these kind of things when I studied Architecture...

Thanks Bob for answering my question.

 

[La Mariposa]

IN CANADA is the concept some seem to have trouble grasping. Canada has no authority to enforce it's laws on Dominican soil.

I don't know Canadian Law, but like variations in US State laws I am willing to wager there are some things you can do legally in Newfoundland that would be illegal in Quebec
..............

The Canadian Criminal Code is a federal law and applies to all canadian provinces except:

Application to territories
8. (1) The provisions of this Act apply throughout Canada except
(a) in Yukon, in so far as they are inconsistent with the Yukon Act;
(b) in the Northwest Territories, in so far as they are inconsistent with the Northwest Territories Act; and
(c) in Nunavut, in so far as they are inconsistent with the Nunavut Act.

As for offences committed outside Canada:

Offences outside Canada
(2) Subject to this Act or any other Act of Parliament, no person shall be convicted or discharged under section 730 of an offence committed outside Canada.

Of course there are a lot of exceptions:

Terrorism offence committed outside Canada

(3.74) Notwithstanding anything in this Act or any other Act, every one who commits an act or omission outside Canada that, if committed in Canada, would be a terrorism offence, other than an offence under section 83.02 or an offence referred to in paragraph (a) of the definition ?terrorist activity? in subsection 83.01(1), is deemed to have committed that act or omission in Canada if the person

(a) is a Canadian citizen;
(b) is not a citizen of any state and ordinarily resides in Canada; or
(c) is a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and is, after the commission of the act or omission, present in Canada.

 

[IslandDreaming]

All the interesting exceptions to the rule aside, I think most understand the basic principle of Sovereign law

ANY persons (With The usual exceptions of Ambassadors etc) are subject to the laws, projection and incarceration of the country where the offense takes place. it truly is not a hard concept, I again believe that in this odd incident where all the actors were from Canada some are thinking that Canada should have influence over the matter.

This isn't a case involving International treaty, International water, a repressive nation where a fair trial is not likely etc; this is a situation where 5 persons appear to have violated the laws of a Country that maintains relations with their home country and will/should be investigated/tried/ punished in that country

I can "Google" and find an exception to about anything, including honesty within the Dominican justice system, so you need not bother finding yet another exception but would be well served if you searched for the common rule instead

anyone with a Paypal account who is making posts regarding exceptions etc care to wager a few hundred bucks the DR will maintain custody and control?

Whether they were guilty or not, I don't recall the USA returning Bruno Hauptmann to Germany for prosecution, or Oswald to the Soviet Union when he claimed citizenship

A very simple litmus test: What did these five people do to harm the COUNTRY of Canada other than possibly sully it's reputation? Now, what did they do to the Dominican Republic? Guess who has jurisdiction

If 5 guys from New York travel to New jersey and kill a man in a robbery and that man happens to be from New York, do you think New York gets him back to prosecute?

Either some are being plain obstinate or I am unable to convey the simple concept of sovereignty, but I quit what I expected to be a very simple task to explain the confusion of a couple people

 

[greydread]

Either some are being plain obstinate or I am unable to convey the simple concept of sovereignty, but I quit what I expected to be a very simple task to explain the confusion of a couple people

My original question had nothing to do with sovereignty. I think that we're all agreed that Dominican law trumps all other factors in this case. I was speaking to Canada's right to try the accused upon release from the Dominican justice system.

Where is the confusion of which you speak?

 

[IslandDreaming]

My original question had nothing to do with sovereignty. I think that we're all agreed that Dominican law trumps all other factors in this case. I was speaking to Canada's right to try the accused upon release from the Dominican justice system.

Where is the confusion of which you speak?

Right in this post, Canada has no "right." "Authority," thoughts," etc for a crime committed in the DR.

These men have violated NO Canadian law

Why does anyone not understand "What happens in the DR stays in the DR?"

History has shown us that in extraordinary situations countries have "reached out" to effect what they see as a gross violation of their citizens rights (Panama, Entebbe, Munich etc) but as a rule, Canada has no more interest in this matter than Romania

 

[greydread]

Right in this post, Canada has no "right." "Authority," thoughts," etc for a crime committed in the DR.

These men have violated NO Canadian law

Why does anyone not understand "What happens in the DR stays in the DR?"

History has shown us that in extraordinary situations countries have "reached out" to effect what they see as a gross violation of their citizens rights (Panama, Entebbe, Munich etc) but as a rule, Canada has no more interest in this matter than Romania

If you are Canadian and familiar with the subject a simple "no" would have sufficed.

 

[Africaida]

No smartass... They didnt discuss these kind of things when I studied Architecture...

Thanks Bob for answering my question.

Nor did they discuss it when I studied Chemical Engineering my dear
I Just thought it was common sense that people are prosecuted wherever the crime is committed (except a few exceptions)