Dead- why estar and not ser?

Derfish

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Jan 7, 2016
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Not really about vaina, but still Espanol 101. Since high school I have wondered about the use of estar to designate dead. He's dead is esta muerto instead of es muerto. The estar is supposed to be temporary, right? But what is more permanent than death? I have an idea that I have proposed outloud a time or two,never here though, but would first like to hear what the experts have to say about it.
THanks
Der Fish
 

windeguy

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Jul 10, 2004
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To be, or not to be. That is the question.

I have no idea regarding estar and ser, but I could not help myself.

Maybe this answer I found:

Although it is true that estar usually indicates a non-permanent, temporary condition whereas ser usually signals a permanent condition, you have to take into account that estar is normally used to express a condition resulting from a transformation, process or actual change, and ser is normally used when referring to an inherent characteristic, with no involvement of process, change or transformation; in other words, ser normally has the purpose of including the subject into a certain class.

This explains why there are some adjectives that express a permanent condition but can only be combined with estar: this is so because they express the result of a change or transformation; muerto is one of those adjectives, and another example is roto: el vaso está roto and not el vaso es roto.
 

Fulano2

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Jun 5, 2011
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It's a condition, that's why.
Nevertheless you could say :"es un hombre muerto". En other words, a man with No energy, fun or life.
 

Mauricio

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Nov 18, 2002
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I think it's just an exception: estoy vivo , estoy muerto. A native Spanish speaker doesn't wonder why, he knows it is estar.

Same with words like agua: el agua está fría , while this exception has a more obvious reason, the two colliding 'a's, in other words they do use 'la', for example la abuela. No native Spanish speaker will say 'la agua', but neither 'el agua frío'. A non native will try to use logic and say 'el agua frio'.
 

Derfish

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Jan 7, 2016
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To be, or not to be. That is the question.

I have no idea regarding estar and ser, but I could not help myself.

Maybe this answer I found:

Although it is true that estar usually indicates a non-permanent, temporary condition whereas ser usually signals a permanent condition, you have to take into account that estar is normally used to express a condition resulting from a transformation, process or actual change, and ser is normally used when referring to an inherent characteristic, with no involvement of process, change or transformation; in other words, ser normally has the purpose of including the subject into a certain class.

This explains why there are some adjectives that express a permanent condition but can only be combined with estar: this is so because they express the result of a change or transformation; muerto is one of those adjectives, and another example is roto: el vaso está roto and not el vaso es roto.

My explanation is kind of related to that. Ser indicates beingness. A human being is a ser humana, and i have heard the term for a celestial being, so when one is dead they no longer have this beingness and ser cannot be used. Juts what I have decided over the years.
Thanks for the professional answer.
Der Fish
 

Derfish

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Jan 7, 2016
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I think it's just an exception: estoy vivo , estoy muerto. A native Spanish speaker doesn't wonder why, he knows it is estar.

Same with words like agua: el agua está fría , while this exception has a more obvious reason, the two colliding 'a's, in other words they do use 'la', for example la abuela. No native Spanish speaker will say 'la agua', but neither 'el agua frío'. A non native will try to use logic and say 'el agua frio'.

This reminds me of an ex-wife saying "When are you going to learn that mano is feminine?" I replied I am glad your manos son feminine, but mine will stay masculine, Thanks. Very little irritates me as much as a woman saying "When are you going to learn?" My answer is our relationship is not one of student and teacher.
Der Fish
 
Aug 6, 2006
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Ser describes the way thing are born or created, and inherent qualities.
Estar describes the results of an action. The action in this case is dying.
Color, by the way, even when something is dyed or painted is considered an inherent quality. Being dead is not an inherent quality.
 
Aug 6, 2006
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I think it's just an exception: estoy vivo , estoy muerto. A native Spanish speaker doesn't wonder why, he knows it is estar.

Same with words like agua: el agua está fría , while this exception has a more obvious reason, the two colliding 'a's, in other words they do use 'la', for example la abuela. No native Spanish speaker will say 'la agua', but neither 'el agua frío'. A non native will try to use logic and say 'el agua frio'.



T]Spanish is descended from Latin, and Latin has no definite article. Because of the disappearance of some cases, Vulgar Latin needed an article,and the Latin Ela was used. Nouns that begin with a stressed a sound (spelled a or ha) use the article el because ela agua sounds like el agua. The two a sounds elide, So Spanish says el agua las aguas, el hada, las hadas, el hacha, las hachas, el alma, las almas: in the plural, the feminine las is used. Adjectives agree with the nouns: el agua roja, el alma divina, el hacha sangrienta.
 

Mauricio

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Nov 18, 2002
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Ser describes the way thing are born or created, and inherent qualities.
Estar describes the results of an action. The action in this case is dying.
Color, by the way, even when something is dyed or painted is considered an inherent quality. Being dead is not an inherent quality.



Not really: yo soy padre, but I wasn't born or created like that. Soy economista también, not born or created as one.

On the ela article, I doubt that. La abuela has a stretched a, but el abuela isn't used. O el abeja, o el águila.
 

Fulano2

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Mauricio, I think the difference is that the enfasis in your example is not on the first a.
It is abUEla, abEja. That's what I have learned. La agua would sound horrible, that's why it is el agua.
 

Derfish

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Jan 7, 2016
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Not really: yo soy padre, but I wasn't born or created like that. Soy economista también, not born or created as one.

On the ela article, I doubt that. La abuela has a stretched a, but el abuela isn't used. O el abeja, o el águila.

I was chatting with a couple of teenagers here in Panama last night. Inferma? Estoy enfermo or Soy enfermo? But the kids were telling me that their Grandma es enferma and has been for quite a while and presumably always will be, while she the kid talking estaba enferma for awhile, but is well now!
Der Fish
 

Mauricio

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Nov 18, 2002
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Argentina wouldn't count then for the emphasis being in 'ti', but 'la aguila' would be an exception of the same order.
 

Lucifer

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Jun 26, 2012
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Yo soy un enfermo con la gramática. It does not mean I'm sick of grammar rules; it means the opposite.

Mi primo es un enfermo con las peleas de gallos: My cousin is addicted to cockfights.
 

Derfish

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Jan 7, 2016
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Yo soy un enfermo con la gramática. It does not mean I'm sick of grammar rules; it means the opposite.

Mi primo es un enfermo con las peleas de gallos: My cousin is addicted to cockfights.

What would the opposite be that grammar rules are sick of you?
Der Fish