Democracy and Capitalism

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Texas Bill

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Observer Keen rresponded to one of my posts in which I said that we were simple people with simple vocabularies. His response was that I was "simple-minded", or words to that effect.


The reference to "permutations within the Human Race" refers o Mathmatical permutation equations used to explain variances in development and/or evolution, i think. He didn't go into enough detail with his statement, but that is what I gathered.

Just tickling his memory a bit with my post, is all.

And, being a bit sarcastic, too, I suppose.

Sorry.

Texas Bill
 
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mondongo

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observer keen said:
.... but i am not sure if the following is what you have meant to write:
"i have often heard people declare, no matter how beautiful or smart a person "x" is, there is always someoneelse more beautiful or smarter".
that statement is logically wrong for it fails to realize that human population is a finite subset of the set of positive integers.

O.K., that is what I meant to write. However, what you inferred is not what I meant to imply. Nonetheless, you assertion is technically correct. That statement is logically wrong for the reason you state: humans form a finite set. As a matter of fact, I would posit that any "thing" countable forms a non-infinite set (time may be the exception). But if you are familiar with quatum physics, then you may say the there is no such thing as a "thing". The objects that you see, count, touch are only probability functions.

But this last sentence brings me to a second point: the meaning of the term meaning and the non-exact nature of communication. The sentence that I wrote, grouped as an entitiy and not decomposed into the individual words, has an accepted meaning that facilitates communication between the largest possible subset of humans.
 

jstnorv05

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Technically

Despite the finite numbers of human beings the subjective nature of the concept of beautiful and smart would make most beautiful or smartest fairly meaningless. You could claim that you are the smartest and mabye to yourself you are but by making that statement I think most people would doubt that you actually are quantum physics aside.
 

observer keen

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texas bill, the post that you are refering to is now closed, but you have misquoted me. what i have said is the opposite, that is with an iq of 146, you are far from being simple-minded. it was a compliment turned against me. by the way, my demonstration does not deal with permutation of cultural elements which in turn facilitates progression or regression on the basis of their cumulative utilitarian value. i do not believe that all cultures are equal in utilitarian value as you may yourself believe; but my reason may be different from yours_ in a different posting, i will reveal to you my logical arguments against cultural relativism which i believe to be a ploy popularized to keep less advanced people at the mercy of more advanced ones. in other words, they would tell a less advanced people that " your way of fighting is equal to mine, but if you go to war with me, you will certainly be slaughtered". or they will tell a less advanced people to stay in harmony with nature while the more advanced people mass-produce food for their kids_ in a natural disater, they survive due to large stock of preserved food while the less advanced people starve to death because they have been at the mercy of nature. cultural relativism is the most racist ideology ever devised by man to keep another ingnorant and subjugated. i will not be fooled by its hypocritical liberalism.

mondongo, one may not ne able to say "things", but one may say a network of "condensed pocket of energy" negligeably linked by the so-called "quantum connection"_ in other words, since the integrally permeating quantum connection is negligeable in this case, for all practical and mathematical computations, they can be treated as separate, thereby becoming "things".
the "heinsenberg principle" does not say that moving subatomic particles are fundamentally devoid of a specific position or velocity in time. it says that their position and velocity cannot be simultaneously calculated with great accuracy. as a consequence of the optic limitations placed on our probing equipments by nature itself, calculations at the subatomic level will have to include distributive functions of probability.
did you have the chance to read sir penrose's quantum proposal which literally opposes to the coppenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics that you are familiar with? it is in scientific american! check it out!
i do not buy penrose's idea completely, but it is better than coperhaggen interpretation, in my opinion. i favor the "multiverse theory" of which i have my own hypothetical version.
 

observer keen

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jsnorv05, i have emphasized a non-ambiguous parameter, and for beauty, i have put the following in parenthesis : "..if one accepts the symmetrical face theory of beauty.."
 
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Texas Bill

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Just for what it's worth----which may be ZERO---

I think we all have fallen into a trap, devised by OK, in continuing to discuss the myriad of "other" topics presented by him in which he may demonstrate his "superior" intellect to this board.

Let's get this thread back on track or else close it and open another wherein the subject material is maintained in a relatively "pure" fashion.

Texas Bill
 

observer keen

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to my human brother, texas bill!

brother, political discussions are like slippery slopes_ they sometimes take you to unintended destinations. life is a network_ with branches to everything! i have not taken it to a tangential route, it has naturally gone there, you are giving me too much credit with that " trap" accusation.
i am a lover of critical thinking, and i have met many critical thinkers, and i am quite satisfied with the interaction.
i am in the process of translating a land-reform proposal of mine originally written in french. i think that, it can be modified to appropriate the reality of dr. see you soon, brothers and sisters!
 

Texas Bill

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observer keen wrote:
Quote!
"i am in the process of translating a land-reform proposal of mine originally written in french. i think that, it can be modified to appropriate the reality of dr. see you soon, brothers and sisters!"
Unquote!

This is the type of stuff I'm talking about! You continue to blow your horn to an excessive degree and expect us to wait with bated breath for your next chapter!

Publish your thesis and ask us to read it afterward.

What does your "land reform" proposal have to do with "Democracy and Capitalism" anyway???

Texas Bill
 

Rick Snyder

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Getting back to the subject matter again.

Democracy is not a perfect form of government but it has the tendency to be better then the other forms that have been tried throughout the world. With a country that is new to democracy it would seem apparent to research those forms of democracy that are presently operating in the world and choose and incorporate those aspects that seem to serve the people and country the best.

Thomas Jefferson said about trusting each other: “Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?” If people can’t trust themselves and their neighbors to speak on their behalf, why do they think a group of strangers is somehow, magically, more trustworthy and suited to speak on their behalf? Simply because the strangers come from wealthy or powerful backgrounds? If you truly believe that we can’t trust one another, then you need to completely revamp your way of life, your educational system, and all other sources of influence on human behavior so that society produces more trustworthy people.

One critique of representative democracy is that it centralizes power into the hands of a few, thereby increasing the likelihood of corruption in and abuse of power by the government and other entities that hold power. This is very apparent in this country and the USA. According to my research 51 of the world’s wealthiest 100 economies are corporations—with the wealthiest in oil and gas, followed by banking, medicine, and high-tech. Together, the top 500 corporations earn $13 trillion per year.
How does corporate rule reward us? Their rewards to us are basically the same in the entire world but speaking mainly of the USA, soaring fuel and healthcare costs. Worsening private and public debts ($8 trillion U.S. debt). Financial scandals. Bankruptcies. Polluted air, land, and water. Global warming. Hunger. Poverty. Terrorism. And global war—with thousands of civilians and soldiers killed and wounded, and almost $100 billion of tax money spent per year, destroying terror weapons sold to Iraq by over 140 companies from around the world. When the White House hid the names of these companies, most of the U.S. media yawned. In the U.S., six corporations own 90% of all media.

All of which brings us back to the question of what is a person to do. People can continue to take the position of dormancy or they can arise from the dormant state and take an active part in the political process. This active part does not entail only voting. It entails meetings, discussions, using the media and internet and getting out there and getting your neighbors involved in the political process also. People relish belonging to a group or organization so why not try to form a group of citizens whose purpose is to discuss and propose better ways to run the government. Through these meeting there is the possibility of finding the ideal person to run for public office. When a better idea is suggested the present system allows you to draw up a petition and submit it to those that presently hold office. There are those that will say that nothing will come to pass by such endeavors but I say that this is a lie as there is always the posibility that you will get a response from an action BUT I can give a 100% guarantee that you will get NOTHING from an inaction except more of the same old, same old.

Speaking of 'same old'. El Caribe opinion columnist Marisol Vicens Bello on 10 Nov said "A large part of society is repelled by scandals of corruption, fraud and other crimes committed by officials called upon to enforce the law while these go on as if nothing had happened. Political parties do not worry that their candidates have been convicted or are being tried for felonies. She mentions the case of Radhames Ramos Garcia who is going to run again for deputy after having been convicted of a crime. Vicens states that this is a symptom of a sick society, contaminated by the cancer of corruption and that this is growing every day thanks to impunity. "We must employ moral sanctions to stop those who do not deserve to represent us and strive for better candidates to be elected", concluded Vicens". How about that "symptom of a sick society"? Do you feel like you belong to a "sick society"? Inaction besets inaction!

Speaking of societies, sick or not you determine, check out the ideas some Dominicans have concerning a governmental change here in the DR. Read the 'user comments' to the below listed article;

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=4695

Another form of representative democracy involves impartial selection of representatives through sortition. Sortition is the method of random selection, particularly in relation to the selection of decision makers. Sortition was first used in Athenian democracy to select jurors and government officials. And, for the past 2000 plus years, sortition has been trusted to bring justice to individuals in public trials (jury selection)—but not to government. Why? Wealth, fame, and media have no power over it. Parties and their campaigns, corruption, and disunity disappear. Education and fair media are fully supported. With these benefits, it becomes apparent why founders of modern thought, like Aristotle and Solon, promoted sortition as the safeguard of democracy over 2000 years ago—and why its use should be even more important today. I must add that my opinion is that in a system of sortition a person picked could opt-out of such duty if they are so inclined.

I am not advocating a form of sortition for the selection for the officies of president, vice president, deputies or senators but almost all other elected offices, especially at the city level, would be more representative of the people through such a process.

Some modern political entities are closest to direct democracies (e.g., Switzerland or some U.S. states), where referenda are frequently used, and public means are provided to initiate referenda by petition instead of by the government.

Rick
 

observer keen

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land reform does not necessarily mean to take from x to give to y.

whenever someone mentions land-reform, the first thing that comes to the mind of the confortable man is " anarchy and the compulsive seisure of private properties"; but it does not have to be that way. land-reform may also mean finding new uses for forgotten and abandoned lands in order to increase productivity; and the latter has obviously a lot to do with capitalism.
the behavior of the poor in dr that so frustrated alvarez to the point of entertaining class-cleansing is significantly related to poverty. for instance, when people are hungry, unsheltered and uneducated, they are in survival mode- when in this survival mode, the brain tends to suspend most higher mental functions including upstanding moral character. haven't you read european history? europe was starving, and consequently its people were relatively immoral, pillaging villages and violating their conquerers'women( similar to what is happening in congo today) until they become economically confortable. with economic comfort comes higher moral standing. in other words, if you want better and less corrupted countrymen, make it a crusade to extend economic opportunities to the lower-classes so they can get out of survival mode. you may no live long enough to ripe the benefits, but you will be paving the way for your great-grand children and more affluent DR and thereby a more moral DR.
note that i am not justifying the culturally assaulting behavior of the lower-class, but rather attempting to explain it.
texas bill, land-reform in my book of ethics means to allow a poor family to work a land for which the legal owner has no immediate plan of use, land-reform also means that a conscious land-owner agrees to let a responsible state assume temporary ownership of neglected properties. there are countless lands of that type in dr and haiti. contrary to the irrational fears of the so-called RIGHT, land-reform is not incompatible with capitalism for an appropriate land-reform will increase productivity upon which capitalism depends.
 

observer keen

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if aristotle said it then it must be true, the most quoted phrase of the dark ages!

snyder, giving the fact that a city will always have limited resources and limited patience, how will sortition appropriately deal with the random selection of incompetents and crooks? it seems that choosing an official will take an inappropriately long time for the name of the town's drunk may pop up just as the serial murderer's. it seems that to avoid such occurrences, the city will have to exclude some names. here is something that you or aristotle may have failed to realize: in jury selection, the objective is to be tried by an assembly of our peers; in this case, random selection is best for it increases the likehood of fairness and decreases that of personal motives in the consideration of verdicts_ in other words, with random selection, the chance of you getting tried by all the individuals who hate or love you in your town is infinitely small. however, for government, the objective is different and so must be the process. the objective is to be governed by the most capable and morally upstanding individuals, and random selection cannot be the best means to achieve such an end. discriminatory factors such as differences in education, experiences are very relevant and will be impeded by random selection. combined thoses with limited resources and limited patience, sortition is not a better alternative even at the city level. what may be better is a "rotational type" of governments where the best of the town are rotated as heads of governments and their performances recorded, as that goes, the frequency of one's being on top will be determined by statistical data on one's cumulative performances. in one does better as minister of finance than of education, then his or her statistical data will bias toward a higher frequency for heading the ministry of finance. that may be the government of the future, but my point is this_ sortition will never improve the make-up of our goverments for it may be excessively time-consuming and it seems to presuppose erroneously that all people are potential leaders. you have mentioned it yourself, what if the person chosen does not want the job. imagine not wanting to do the job, followed by incapable of doing the job, and followed by not prepared to do the job and so on.
do you get my point?
 
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Rick Snyder

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Observer keen I want to thank you for your post #71 as it is directed toward that which this web site was established. You brought up some interesting items for thought and discussion but unfortunately that discussion will never make it past this board and therein lies the problem as to anything that is discussed on this board concerning the betterment of the RD.

As I tried to explain in my last post, it is that organization of groups of Dominican citizens that needs to be accomplished in that they would be able to discuss those items that would help this country and then submit those ideas to the proper authorities for proper possible implementation.

Discussions concerning the betterment of this country, on this board, do nothing more then to give a "feel good" mind set to the individual if that information never reaches the citizens or the government of the DR and therefore serves no real purpose.

We have a number of Dominicans on this board and it is through them that I hope the betterment of this country will come about. I do what I can here in El Seybo to get the local people involved in their government but there is only so much a non Spanish speaking gringo can do. It is because of these Dominican board members that I keep suggesting they get involved in their communities in the hopes that they will try to organize groups of citizens to get together and discuss that which would help them all by helping this country. The betterment of this country can only be accomplished by the will of its people and this is what I try to influence.

The reason I mentioned sortition was as another means of selection then that which is presently used. If sortition is used in conjunction with such things as refrendums and recall then you can have a better control of that which is proposed and/or passed and those whose job is supposed to be representing their constituency.

You sit there in your little world in the US of A and in reality you have no idea as to the problems faced by the Dominicans. Unless you live it and/or see it 24/7 you cannot truly understand regardless of how much you have read or studied. You sort of remind me of the politicians that I see here all the time. You know, the ones that were born with a silver spoon up there arse and they will get out there amongst the poor and say " I know how you feel". You can only know by living it! If you have never been in their shoes then you can never relate!

I have seen how the regidoras, síndico and ayutamiento operate, or failure thereof. here in El Seybo. If these positions alone could be filled by means other then election, as presently done, the savings to the federal government would be in the billions of pesos across the entire country. If an honest, caring síndico where in place then the possibility of 22 people filling the office slots that require only 4 people could become a reality. There is also the possibility that this honest person would hire 4 people that honestly need the job and not 4 members of his wealthy family. Also there is the possibility they would all know how to read and write. The regidoras, whose only function is to vote on projects, do not need to be filled by people with wealth who never go into the barrios where the majority of the projects that they vote on need to be done.

The DR needs change and it is only by the participation of its citizens will this change ever take place.

Rick
 

Texas Bill

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Observer Keen writes:
"texas bill, land-reform in my book of ethics means to allow a poor family to work a land for which the legal owner has no immediate plan of use, land-reform also means that a conscious land-owner agrees to let a responsible state assume temporary ownership of neglected properties. there are countless lands of that type in dr and haiti. contrary to the irrational fears of the so-called RIGHT, land-reform is not incompatible with capitalism for an appropriate land-reform will increase productivity upon which capitalism depends."

When I see the words "land reform", I immediately think in the terms you have mentioned. History has been full of exactly the type of land reform that does take from x and give to y. more particularily, in tahe DR, if a landowner allows someone to occupy his unused land without a specific contract, eventually that person can claim that land by right of occupation and there's not much the owner can do aabout it. There are numerous cases of such on the books here. It's the way the laws are written.
I think there is one thong you must understand about heDR and that is this; this country is one of "takers" an has a severe absence of "givers" permeating it's society. It is a "Populist" style country. The local (and national) politicians have "brainwashed" the public through buying their votes with free electricity, money for "New" tin roofs, supposed "free school lunches" and the like for the past 40-50 years. The current generation simply doesn't know any other type of government. Corruption is endemic and I seriously doubt if such will EVER be eliminated, even partially, no matter what actions are taken on the surface for the sake of the appearance of transparancy.
There are many consortiums at work to change the methods used by the politicians, but they always find themselves "swimming against the current" of cohesive negative actions by incumbent Legislators and administrators within the various agencies of government. They will all lie, steal and cheat in order to maintain the status quo.
It's just the way thing are in the DR.
So, you see, for all your intellect and philosophical meanderings, it really ends up that way.

Texas Bill
 

Rick Snyder

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Unfortunately I think the horses never really got out the gate due to all the do-do in the track. Which, IMO, is a shame as I think the OP had started an interesting topic but somebody let a mule with diarrhea in amoung the race horses.

Rick
 

Rick Snyder

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By the way....................................

For those of you that enjoy or not enjoy talking about the government here within the DR and how to accept it or change it or whether anything should be done. I have tried to make my feelings made known and have suggested ideas for thought but as I'm not endowed scholastically I have a hard time getting my true feelings expressed.

Because of my loquacious handicap it is so enjoyable when I find my feelings being expressed by a Dominican. Today I found an example of such a case and thought I would share it with you as it says very clearly that which I had been trying to say but it is written by a Dominican;

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=5135

Rick
 

Mirador

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Rick Snyder said:
By the way....................................

For those of you that enjoy or not enjoy talking about the government here within the DR and how to accept it or change it or whether anything should be done. I have tried to make my feelings made known and have suggested ideas for thought but as I'm not endowed scholastically I have a hard time getting my true feelings expressed.

Because of my loquacious handicap it is so enjoyable when I find my feelings being expressed by a Dominican. Today I found an example of such a case and thought I would share it with you as it says very clearly that which I had been trying to say but it is written by a Dominican;

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=5135

Rick


Rick, I see where you coincide with Mr. Alfredo Guzman, the author of the article. You are both big-hearted incorrigible romantics when it comes to politics, believing in the notion of the 'noble savage' and all... However, the article misses the point regarding the current situation. What we have here in the DR cannot be called a democracy, it is an entire political system hijacked by hoodlums who's sole purpose is to enrich themselves at the expense of the ignorant masses, who because of their ignorance cannot establish the relationship between their participation and their increasing empovirishment, like a dog disciplined with a rolled-up newspaper, does not blame the handler but attacks the rollled-up newspaper, the ignorant masses naively sell their vote every election, sometimes for the a bottle of rum, and are not aware of the relationship between their actions and their miserable condition. The hoodlums know that, and exploit it, for to educate the masses would be subversive for their purpose.

What we can do? Nothing at all, but wait for the collapse of the 'hoodlumacracy' from it's own inertia, it's own unsustainable weight, and hoping that the sooner the better...
 

Texas Bill

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Mirador said:
Rick, I see where you coincide with Mr. Alfredo Guzman, the author of the article. You are both big-hearted incorrigible romantics when it comes to politics, believing in the notion of the 'noble savage' and all... However, the article misses the point regarding the current situation. What we have here in the DR cannot be called a democracy, it is an entire political system hijacked by hoodlums who's sole purpose is to enrich themselves at the expense of the ignorant masses, who because of their ignorance cannot establish the relationship between their participation and their increasing empovirishment, like a dog disciplined with a rolled-up newspaper, does not blame the handler but attacks the rollled-up newspaper, the ignorant masses naively sell their vote every election, sometimes for the a bottle of rum, and are not aware of the relationship between their actions and their miserable condition. The hoodlums know that, and exploit it, for to educate the masses would be subversive for their purpose.

What we can do? Nothing at all, but wait for the collapse of the 'hoodlumacracy' from it's own inertia, it's own unsustainable weight, and hoping that the sooner the better...

Mirador:

What you have described is essentially "elected feudalism". People will vote for the person/party that offers them the most. That it is done under the umbrella of "Democracy" is very misleading.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the perpetrators and formers of the original political parties in this country sat down and asked themselves, "how can we assure that we will always have continuity in a system of government and wha must we do, collectively, to assure that continuity." The answer has been obvious since the end of the Trujillo days.
Give the people a small bone to chew on and they will think it is a feast. Continue to give them the small bones while we take the meat. If the masses become restless, then give them only enough more to satisfy the immediate hunger. In the meantime, we have all the meaty portions for ourselves.
Under fuedalism, that worked very well for centuries throughout the world and still works well in a lot of countries, including the DR. That is the type of government that is practiced here.
What's to do??? Start telling the old homelies we grew up with. "Humpty Dumpty", "Chicken Little" and the like, but put them in a little more modern scenario that can be understood by the simple, uneducated minds that will read/listen to them. Go to the public places and start conversations about current events, then turn the subject to historical fact and philosophy such as expressed by Sr. Guzman.
I know, much of it would fall on deaf ears and be met with some severe argument form the avid surporters (read that, "takers" of current largesse) of the present regime. Not necessarily surporters of the whole system. Those who follow the party not in power would tend to agree, while those in power would disagree. none-the-less, eventually I think you'd get the point across.
How long did it take the French poeopl to finally rise up against the aristocracy (who, BTW, acted exactly like present day Dominican politicians) and demand a change. Unfortunately that change brought about total anarchy for a period of time (like 60 years, or thereabouts). Likewise with the American Revolution. That took a long time to begin and had it's faltering moments.
Can't do anything about the present situation??? I disagree totally, history says it can be done.

Texas Bill
 

Chirimoya

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Texas Bill, I completely agree with your and Mirador's summing up of the situation here. I don't think the people are likely to rise up. A socialist revolution is highly unlikely in this day and age. A Chavez scenario is not out of the question though.
 
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