Discrimination Just for been Haitian

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AnnaC

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Homer write it in Spanish as wells so that you might get your point across better.

We've discussed the Haitian problems before and all I have gotten from past threads is that Dominicans have a huge dislike for Haitians.

Where's Merideth when you need her ;)

Mike, Homer does have a great sense of humor so stop picking on him.
 

Rocky

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simpson Homer said:
I know is Historical problem, still not reason treat them like animals.

I know, I might not write or speak the propper English but how is your spanish?
to get the point for you and any other who does not understand me:
When I mentioned the reasons for the maltreatment of Haitians by our Immigration department, I certainly agree with you that it is unaceptable.
I was not trying to justify thier actions. It's sad and wrong.

I too had a bit of difficulty understanding the full meaning of what you wrote, but I do appreciate that you make the effort. Those who don't, will never learn. If I had to tell the same story in Spanish, it might not come out too well either.
Thumbs up to you for having the guts to do it, hard as it may be.
 

ltsnyder

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Just to clarify, a lot of people want to excuse thier attitude . . . .

Anna Coniglio said:
Homer write it in Spanish as wells so that you might get your point across better.

We've discussed the Haitian problems before and all I have gotten from past threads is that Dominicans have a huge dislike for Haitians.

Where's Merideth when you need her ;)

Mike, Homer does have a great sense of humor so stop picking on him.


By saying Dominicans have a problem or don't like Haitians. This is not he case, there are a lot of people with racist attitudes and hold on to them for dear life. But the dominicans I know, don't like poor squatters, but have no problem with Haitians. I know alot of Haitian business men, and they keep a low profile because there are a lot of jealous Dominican businessmen who hate a successfull Haitian more than anything. These Haitian and other "non-old guard" are the up and coming breed of businessmen in the DR.

So there may be a problem with Haitians looking for work in the DR, and there are a set of Dominicans who are prejudicial against Haitinas, but the majorityof Dominicans are liberal minded and under stand that Haitians are memers of the community and the society.

-Lee
 

sjh

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It is really easy for North Americans/Europeans to walk in and get upset about the way things are. After working every day for over a year with many haitians on my farm, I find it difficult to express my exact thoughts on the issue. I can say this much, It is not a simple situation. I know several haitans who i count as close friends. I know many who are dependable hardworking fellas. I know many who are lazy and good for nothing. I know a few who i consider dangerous.

My advice is before people jump in and start pointing fingers and attempting to attain a higher state of PC holiness, you need to actually be here, see how the status quo works and what doesn't work.

Before you comment ask yourselves these questions:
How long have you lived here?
Do you live in a gated community or a regular dominican neighborhood?
How many haitian workers have you personally hired?
how many do you know personally?
How many have you lived near or next to?
Have you ever tried to help a specific individual? (other than one time handouts)


There are many people here who are very aware of the reality here, and these questions are not for you but the uninitiated who are quick to complain about the reality of living here.
 

Rocky

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ltsnyder said:
By saying Dominicans have a problem or don't like Haitians. This is not he case, there are a lot of people with racist attitudes and hold on to them for dear life. But the dominicans I know, don't like poor squatters, but have no problem with Haitians. I know alot of Haitian business men, and they keep a low profile because there are a lot of jealous Dominican businessmen who hate a successfull Haitian more than anything.
This sounds rather contradictory.
Am I to understand that you are saying that the Dominicans hate the poor squatting Haitians and also the succesful ones, but they have no problems with Haitians????
Does this mean they don't mind the middle class Haitians but hate the rest?

ltsnyder said:
but the majorityof Dominicans are liberal minded and under stand that Haitians are memers of the community and the society.
-Lee
It's not as if I polled the DR for this info, but if you believe that the majority of Dominicans understand that Haitians are members of thier community, why is that I have never met a Dominican in all these years that doesn't have disdain for them, if not outright hate them?
What part of the country do you live in that is so different than where I am?
 

Rocky

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sjh said:
It is really easy for North Americans/Europeans to walk in and get upset about the way things are. After working every day for over a year with many haitians on my farm, I find it difficult to express my exact thoughts on the issue. I can say this much, It is not a simple situation. I know several haitans who i count as close friends. I know many who are dependable hardworking fellas. I know many who are lazy and good for nothing. I know a few who i consider dangerous.

My advice is before people jump in and start pointing fingers and attempting to attain a higher state of PC holiness, you need to actually be here, see how the status quo works and what doesn't work.

Before you comment ask yourselves these questions:
How long have you lived here?
Do you live in a gated community or a regular dominican neighborhood?
How many haitian workers have you personally hired?
how many do you know personally?
How many have you lived near or next to?
Have you ever tried to help a specific individual? (other than one time handouts)


There are many people here who are very aware of the reality here, and these questions are not for you but the uninitiated who are quick to complain about the reality of living here.
Although I agree with you with regards to knowing the situation before commenting, this thread is not about whether Haitians are good people or not, but why the Immigration Department mistreats them more than other nationalities.
Haitians must be like any other nationality with it's good and bad. I'm sure all level headed people in this forum realize that.
What's up for discussion here is the reason behind them being so mistreated by Dominicans.
 

sjh

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The big difference is that Haitians come with no real skills and no money. This creates a real burden on the system.

You dont see too many illegal germans begging on the streets nor are there illegal americans squating on the unfinished building next door. I havent seen any canadians giving birth in public hospitals at government expense.

Naturally this causes a lot of resentment among those who live here and "law" enforcement is a reflection of that.


This is a real case from my adopted home town:
Imagine you are a little old dominican lady living in a quiet but poor little neighborhood for 50 odd years. All the neighbors are well known to you, old family friends, cousins, second cousins, inlaws etc.

One day two haitian day laborers wander into town and camp out in a half built house next door. With in a month there are eight along with wives and kids. Except these people arent like you. They speak a different language. They sit on your front porch because you have better shade. They are really poor even compared to yourself and they ask for money. They try to sell you fruit they picked off of your own property. The kids ask you every day if they can shine your shoes when all you have are plastic sandels. There are plenty of fights nextdoor because too many people are living all in the same place. Additionally they have a chip on their shoulder because they are a darker shade of color than you are.

You start thinking: Who are these people? why are they here in MY neighborhood that MY family built? what are they contributing to us?

From the dominican point of view this is an invasion of unwanted guests in their own country.

on the otherhand the "typical" gringo shows up with a wad of cash, lives in a well maintained house etc...

which guest would you bum rush out of the house?
 

Rocky

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Very good points.
I have Haitian squatter neighbours myself and it ain't pretty.


sjh said:
The big difference is that Haitians come with no real skills and no money. This creates a real burden on the system.

You dont see too many illegal germans begging on the streets nor are there illegal americans squating on the unfinished building next door. I havent seen any canadians giving birth in public hospitals at government expense.

Naturally this causes a lot of resentment among those who live here and "law" enforcement is a reflection of that.


This is a real case from my adopted home town:
Imagine you are a little old dominican lady living in a quiet but poor little neighborhood for 50 odd years. All the neighbors are well known to you, old family friends, cousins, second cousins, inlaws etc.

One day two haitian day laborers wander into town and camp out in a half built house next door. With in a month there are eight along with wives and kids. Except these people arent like you. They speak a different language. They sit on your front porch because you have better shade. They are really poor even compared to yourself and they ask for money. They try to sell you fruit they picked off of your own property. The kids ask you every day if they can shine your shoes when all you have are plastic sandels. There are plenty of fights nextdoor because too many people are living all in the same place. Additionally they have a chip on their shoulder because they are a darker shade of color than you are.

You start thinking: Who are these people? why are they here in MY neighborhood that MY family built? what are they contributing to us?

From the dominican point of view this is an invasion of unwanted guests in their own country.

on the otherhand the "typical" gringo shows up with a wad of cash, lives in a well maintained house etc...

which guest would you bum rush out of the house?
 

simpson Homer

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Man you got the point

You got the point. Rocky.

Now this is to sjh:

About Haitian coming to the DR with out money, How many foreign live there with money?

What is the diference between one American or European and one Haitian working illegaly in DR?

Are Haitian human been or not?

I know many Haitian could have the positon of work that one Dominican could have but How many foreign are doing that in the DR? by the way, the only one who get punished is the Haitian.

How many foreign are working as protitute in DR who are not Haitian, ?




Rocky said:
Although I agree with you with regards to knowing the situation before commenting, this thread is not about whether Haitians are good people or not, but why the Immigration Department mistreats them more than other nationalities.
Haitians must be like any other nationality with it's good and bad. I'm sure all level headed people in this forum realize that.
What's up for discussion here is the reason behind them being so mistreated
by Dominicans.
 
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simpson Homer

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well

Do you want an Honest answer?

I will acept the guest that will come to work legally, I don't care what is goingto do as soon as is a Legal work.

But If I will have a wealthy Gringo working Ilegally and a Poor Haitian working Ilegally I will deport both of them. Not Just the Hatian.

Immigration law are not just made for Haitian. and Human rights isn't it?


sjh said:
You start thinking: Who are these people? why are they here in MY neighborhood that MY family built? what are they contributing to us?

From the dominican point of view this is an invasion of unwanted guests in their own country.

on the otherhand the "typical" gringo shows up with a wad of cash, lives in a well maintained house etc...

which guest would you bum rush out of the house?
 

TCIDR

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I don't think the haitian will is to live life, but to survive this life.
Similar situation in the DR, is the same in TCI.
It was around the 80's that it was just a hand full of them and the discrimination started almost immediately.
Alot of family were into fishing and subsistence farming. And the hatians who came here had jobs almost right away doing chores.
But I think soon people lost respect from them because it didn't seem they want to better themselves, and their number would increase continuously, so they soon expose themselves that they had not science people. Saying this I mean that you wouldn't really have a job for him or her, but you would sort of create something to help out. Afterall alot of people were struggling themselves. People would teach them the things they do and have them to become independent. But these guy sooner would bring in more and more people and expect you to provide jobs for them as well.
The intention of the islanders were to help these individual, and they were dedicated to doing so, even to the point that the people that work for them were allow to used thier last name.
As a kid, I would get frustrated by so many people living in one house, and my friends and I would through stones on thier houses at night.
Sometimes these guys used to catch us and beat us up but we couldn't let our parent know otherwise we would have been chastise for doing such a thing.
This was the first generation of haitians I think, and after they came somewhat rebellious and people started hating (well I don't want to be too hard, but there was a dislike for them, especially the younger folk, and this was happening in all the islands)
Then things change a little later on when these came became competition to the divers on the banks because there were so many of them, then they started squatting on crown land, then there goes the nieghborhood. At this point the older folk tolerated this, but they because outrage when they saw how they treated the areas. DIRTY and OVERCROWDED, and the women would be pregnant every week
Eventho these guys were making money on par with the other diver, they refuse to improve thier stardard of living. They guys also avoid buying stuff in the islands. People started saying, well if you're going to live here, atleast improve your standard of living, and also learn english.
After the tourism industry started in Providenciales (with the Club med), the jobs within the construction industry arise, and the islands had the opportunity to use the hatians (new ones) for cheap labor, so it wasn't a rush to get them out of the country.
The hatians continue to reach TCI shores and thier numbers increase all the more. And they stood iin thier numbers.
At this time people started calling them poppies, don't know the meaning of that, but i think it was because they were very cheap.
Immigration in the 90 soon started deporting some of the illegal hatians (usually caught on worksites).
But there were people standing up for them because some were losing a source of cheap labor, ven to the point thier hygene standards were lacking.
later the dominican started coming here, but the immigration never bother them. Because the girls were pretty, and they alway spent money back into the economy. These guys don't save money, they party every weekend. And now there are even a couple domincan clubs and restuarants.
So this was is what the contractor support thier argument with to the immigration, saying how can you deport hatians but not dominicans. Aren't they all illegal.
Recently immigration started deporting haitains again, this time because they are posing a security threat to the nation. Most of the crimes happening here are being take place by haitians. This is because thier number are some many now and the immigration had tighten up so signifantly that is hard to get a job. And the contractors at one time who wanted them to stay are out of job because on every job site there they are.
But I think there are certain procedures for deporting now that have to do with human rights regulations.
But....
In the same way Dominican discriminate again Haitain, to a lighter degree in TCI. Immigration will deporting any illegal who they can't get a couple thousand dollars from. Immigration have became a big business in TCI for a few. But I think they've been very passive towards the dominicans. They simply don't bother them
 

sjh

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simpson Homer said:
You got the point. Rocky.

Now this is to sjh:

About Haitian coming to the DR with out money, How many foreign live there with money?

What is the diference between one American or European and one Haitian working illegaly in DR?

Are Haitian human been or not?

I know man Haitian could the positon of work that one Dominican could have but How mny foreign are doing that in the DR? by the way, the only one who get punished is the Haitian.

How many foreign are working as protitute in DR who are not Haitian, ?

1. not sure i understand the question. But I would have to say even a poor gringo moving to the country shows up with more money in his pocket than a poor dominican makes in a year ($1000)

2. the gringo lives a life that is less offensive to dominicans. Additionally no one cares what is legal and illegal in this country. Law as NA/Europeans does not exist. What is enforced depends on who is in control

3. definately yes. But being human doesnt mean you can walk right into someone elses country, setup camp on someone elses property, and be a burden on society.

4. For one thing the quantity of gringos is far less. Additionally the education level of gringos is generally higher than that of dominicans. This improves the quality of service in the country.

5. I have no idea, but i dont think it matters to dominicans.
 

simpson Homer

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Well,

Maybe I'm wrong but reading all the post here, seems like most people are agree about dicrimination and bad treatment to Illegal Haitian.

2- Haitian have not Human rights in DR. that Human rights are made for gringos.

3- That all those foreignor illegal worker in Puerto Plata, Punta Cana ad many other place taking that position that a Dominican can have. They have human rights "They can work in DR illegaly and not get deported because they are gringos"

4- The Bad ones are Haitian's they have to be out of the Island specialy in the way immigration is doing it "Pointing Guns" "Hitting them"

I realize many thing from some of you.

Many people here are not tinking about How many criminals could be hidding in the Dominican Rep. that doesn't need to be Haitian.

Look at how easy could be for foreignor Sex abuser or killer to hide and get a work illegaly in DR, but Dominican Immigration a Dominican way to think is "Haitian Out you are the bad" right?

All of this, Just because that is how immgration law work in the DR.

Why waste a time if we are not going to solve the problem right!
 
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CyaBye3015

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sjh said:
1
3. definately yes. But being human doesnt mean you can walk right into someone elses country, setup camp on someone elses property, and be a burden on society.

LMOA, obviously you do not live in the USA!!!

Joe
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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The DR is doing what many European and the US are doing also.

In the US or Europe, they want cheap labor from Mexico and the middle east and Africa, but they don't want their presence.

People just want cheap labor to appear when in need, and then to disappear when not in need. Its something that repeats itself all over the world, the DR is not the only one. Haitians are also mistreated in Jamaica, Cuba, and in the Bahamas. When ever they try to get into the US illegally, the Coast guard grabs them miles and miles off the coast and/or simply deports them regardless if they touch land or not.

I must say that some people (me included) hire Haitians to help them out.

I, for example, hired two Haitian woman to be maids in my house. I hired them only during the two weeks vacation I gave to my Dominican maids (who are vacationing at the Melia Tropical in Punta Cana with their entire family at my expense - its a little thank you for their hard work that I like to give them). However, coming back to the Haitians, why did I temporarily hired these Haitian women? Because I felt sorry for them. I hired them for these two weeks and I'll pay them in US Dollars about $1,000 each. I know its extremely alot, but hey they are working hard and I did not hired them to take advantage of them by giving them meager wages, just to help them out a bit in their struggle in life. I'm planning to send them to a hotel in Juan Dolio for one week after their job is done so that they can relax and eat all they want and have fun at my expense. After that, they are on their own again.

So why did I hired them? As I said, to help them out.

Many folks might be confused with me right now thinking at first that I am anti-Haitian or something. In reality, I'm not anti-Haitian, I'm anti-Haitian immigration illegally. When ever I get the chance to help a Haitian out, I do, but only if a Dominican is not within sight, otherwise I'll help my own countrymen because after all the Dominican Republic was created for Dominicans.

I prefer to hire Dominicans for permanent positions because I want to help out as many Paisanos as I can, but when ever a temporary deal comes up, usually I give it to a Haitian, but only if a Dominican don't show interest in that deal first.
 

sjh

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Nal0whs,

Let me get this straight: you just paid two people 1000 USD each for two weeks to act as maids. That works out to 80K pesos a month. The going rate for a good full time maid around here is less than 4K pesos a month. It might be a little more where you live but that is nuts.

After all that you are going to send these two on vacation for a week at a resort where they will be completely out of place and not know how to behave.

you arent helping anybody that way. just making yourself look like a fool.

Cyabye: that is one reason why i dont live there anymore :)

Simpson Homer:

2. Both are breaking the law, but only one is causeing a socail and economic problem. The other is improving the quality of life. Therefore the law is selectively enforced to benefit Domincans (the rightful owners of the country)

3 The are not getting deported because they arent causeing problems same as #2

4 bad things happen to people who break laws. why should that surprise you?

obviously you have an agenda here that does not include the best interests of the dominican people
 

Larry

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QUOTE:

However, coming back to the Haitians, why did I temporarily hired these Haitian women? Because I felt sorry for them. I hired them for these two weeks and I'll pay them in US Dollars about $1,000 each. I know its extremely alot, but hey they are working hard and I did not hired them to take advantage of them by giving them meager wages, just to help them out a bit in their struggle in life. I'm planning to send them to a hotel in Juan Dolio for one week after their job is done so that they can relax and eat all they want and have fun at my expense. After that, they are on their own again.

So why did I hired them? As I said, to help them out. ----NalOwhs





I agree with sjh. You may think you were being generous or philantropic or whatever word you want to attach to your deed but I guarantee you, those two maids think you are the biggest fool of a moron that was ever born.

Larry
 

Pib

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Not to rain on your parade or anything. After all your money is yours and you should know how to spend it.

However, did you consider that you are giving them an incentive for what everybody seems to criticize around these fora? That is lack of long-term planning? If I could pay my maid that much money I wouldn't, I would however do one of the following things:

1. Tell her that I would pay her extra if she goes back to night school, or

2. Pay English or computer classes for her kids, or

3. Set up a fund to help with her children education, or

4. Tell her I will match whatever she saves to help her build/rebuild her house, or

5. Give her health insurance.

As I said, your money is yours and I am not criticizing you, just an observation.
 

miguel

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True!!

Rocky said:
I too had a bit of difficulty understanding the full meaning of what you wrote, but I do appreciate that you make the effort. Those who don't, will never learn. If I had to tell the same story in Spanish, it might not come out too well either.
Thumbs up to you for having the guts to do it, hard as it may be.
I can honestly say the same, it's hard, sometimes, to understand but I do understand what he is trying to say. If those University Professors do not want to see mistakes, they should go to a "University Professors" site!!!!. Thanks Homer and please do not let those Professors discorage you.

Thread realted, oops, I meant "related":
As long as dominicans are dominicans, SOME WILL look at a person's color and not the person itself.
My father had a haitian maid and he could have given her more money but instead of doing that, he told her that he would help with some of her son's school supplies just to make it easier on her, as long as her son stayed in school. You do not give people more money just for the heck of it because they WILL think that you are a moron and they WILL take you and their jobs for granted. Just make them aware that you can do something extra, like what Pib said.
 
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ltsnyder

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Please tell me when your regular maids take vacation . . . .

Nal0whs said:
The DR is doing what many European and the US are doing also.

In the US or Europe, they want cheap labor from Mexico and the middle east and Africa, but they don't want their presence.

People just want cheap labor to appear when in need, and then to disappear when not in need. Its something that repeats itself all over the world, the DR is not the only one. Haitians are also mistreated in Jamaica, Cuba, and in the Bahamas. When ever they try to get into the US illegally, the Coast guard grabs them miles and miles off the coast and/or simply deports them regardless if they touch land or not.

I must say that some people (me included) hire Haitians to help them out.

I, for example, hired two Haitian woman to be maids in my house. I hired them only during the two weeks vacation I gave to my Dominican maids (who are vacationing at the Melia Tropical in Punta Cana with their entire family at my expense - its a little thank you for their hard work that I like to give them). However, coming back to the Haitians, why did I temporarily hired these Haitian women? Because I felt sorry for them. I hired them for these two weeks and I'll pay them in US Dollars about $1,000 each. I know its extremely alot, but hey they are working hard and I did not hired them to take advantage of them by giving them meager wages, just to help them out a bit in their struggle in life. I'm planning to send them to a hotel in Juan Dolio for one week after their job is done so that they can relax and eat all they want and have fun at my expense. After that, they are on their own again.

So why did I hired them? As I said, to help them out.

Many folks might be confused with me right now thinking at first that I am anti-Haitian or something. In reality, I'm not anti-Haitian, I'm anti-Haitian immigration illegally. When ever I get the chance to help a Haitian out, I do, but only if a Dominican is not within sight, otherwise I'll help my own countrymen because after all the Dominican Republic was created for Dominicans.

I prefer to hire Dominicans for permanent positions because I want to help out as many Paisanos as I can, but when ever a temporary deal comes up, usually I give it to a Haitian, but only if a Dominican don't show interest in that deal first.


Me and my vacation partner will pick up your dirty underwear and clean up around the house for 2 weeks for a cool $2000 US and don't forget that vacation. Anything you want, just tell me. I'll even donate some of the money to a worthy Haitian cause, and have them send thank you leters.

If you were a woman, I'd try to seduce you . . . . (this is so funny, I can't stop smiling)

-Lee
 
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