Follow up to the dominican identity: The acknowledgment that there is a problem

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Marianopolita

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Deelt,

It seems like you do know and understand my sentimental side very well and this proverb is very reassuring. Thanks for sharing it.

-Lesley D


deelt said:
You know I do love the bible. I find it has a little bit of everything we need for daily living. It's nice to find solance in this at times...here is a passage that I have had to go to when confronted with certain types of people:

Proverbs 9:7-9 (Written by the very wise man, Solomon)
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse. Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you. Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning."

Girl, let it go. Somethings can't be changed.
D
 

Pib

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Lesley D said:
Pib,

This thread was created based on the article published in El Listin Diario on August 9, 2004. It is a follow up to the previous discussion however, this one with a focus on discrimination as detailed in the article. The link is available in the first post.
I know, I read it and agree with most of it. I just think that we are back to arguing the same thing. IMHO that is.
 

deelt

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Goddess, oh I mean PIB. :cheeky: I think given the recent turn of discussion, yes, you are right. My point was just to make people aware of the article, in order to demystify this idea that this is an external struggle. Dominicans in the island have spoken.

It was nice to see that we were talking positively and embracing, at least for a little while. No teenager feeling affronted/hurt by comments has arrived, requiring us to close the thread....yet. :disappoin
D

Pib said:
I know, I read it and agree with most of it. I just think that we are back to arguing the same thing. IMHO that is.
 

SalsaBlondie

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yes i have experienced racism

indie et al, nice comments on the thread.

once i had a business meeting in chicago and met a friend of mine for dinner, he is nigerian.

we were told the wait would be 40 minutes and we waited 2 hours. each time we figured we had to be next up.. i walked back to check about 4 times and the last time i checked there was a different hostess. . . she said oh my goodness, i dont know why you were not sat before ...you are definitely next.. i saw on the list, crossed out names above and below MINE... the lady waiting next to me overheard , got mad and said, "the other lady told me *I* was next!!"

this happens here in the US.. i have seen cashiers ask for IDs for credit cards with black folks and then i get up to the register and they don't ask it for me.. one might ask.. why not? a blondie could be using a stolen card, too.

i might mention that even when one tries not to be racist, it is tough to remove all racial stereotypes from your mind. but, understanding your shortcomings is the first sign of change.

salsablondie

Indie said:
I PERSONALLY have not witnessed such racial discrimination anywhere else in the world, by the way, not even in the United States. And for you to even suggest that such behavior is totally understandable in the DR on this "Dominican Identity" thread is insulting as it is outrageous.

Change your mindset, dude -- you're embarrassing. You really should get out more, and read a book or two every eclipse.

-Indie
 

Antonia Preer

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I need some advise...

I am from an Afro American and Mexican family, however I self-indentify as black. I will traveling to the DR for an internship in November, however, I am beginning to have second thoughts about it because of the issues of skin. I know I will go eventually but maybe I am not prepared just yet, to deal with that type of discrimination. It makes me soo sad. I love all afro people, and it is severely disturbing to see such a beautiful people hate their own skin so much. Like some Afro Americans, Dominicans have bought into the anglo imperialists lies, and have turned on themselves. Its one thing for the white man to hate me , but for someone to look like me and hate me is another.

So my question is the Dominican Republic a good place for a Black Amercian to go ?? I ask this because although I know all countries have issues- I am black afterall I know whats up- I am not interested in enduring unecessary poor treatment.
 

NALs

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Antonia Preer said:
I need some advise...

I am from an Afro American and Mexican family, however I self-indentify as black. I will traveling to the DR for an internship in November, however, I am beginning to have second thoughts about it because of the issues of skin. I know I will go eventually but maybe I am not prepared just yet, to deal with that type of discrimination. It makes me soo sad. I love all afro people, and it is severely disturbing to see such a beautiful people hate their own skin so much. Like some Afro Americans, Dominicans have bought into the anglo imperialists lies, and have turned on themselves. Its one thing for the white man to hate me , but for someone to look like me and hate me is another.

So my question is the Dominican Republic a good place for a Black Amercian to go ?? I ask this because although I know all countries have issues- I am black afterall I know whats up- I am not interested in enduring unecessary poor treatment.

Please, keep in mind that much of the stuff being discussed here are for the most part true, but not really rampant.

Its hard to describe it. For example, you have a high possibility of not running into discrimination as you know it. In fact, you (like many other African-Americans that have visited the DR and posted here on DR1), you might feel ever much better accepted here than in your own country. You might even feel more at home here than in the USA.

Don't give up this opportunity because of what you read here, just keep the stuff you read here in the back of your head, but don't base your decisions on it.

Most African-Americans that visit the DR come and go and feel really good about themselves afterwards. In fact, few leave indifferent, most learn how to see the world in a refreshing new way.

Take this opportunity, its one that will benefit you for the rest of your life.
 

bob saunders

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Antonia Preer said:
I need some advise...
. I love all afro people, and it is severely disturbing to see such a beautiful people hate their own skin so much. Quote

The Hutus and Tutis in Rwanda, Burindi, and the Congo
obviously love each other

Quote
Like some Afro Americans, Dominicans have bought into the anglo imperialists lies, and have turned on themselves. Its one thing for the white man to hate me , but for someone to look like me and hate me is another. Quote

Explain to this white guy(married to a mixed race Dominicana) what anglo imperlist lies are. This sounds like quite the racist statement. Why do expect the white guy to hate you?
 

Antonia Preer

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To Bob

First of all Bob, when I say "anglo imperialists", I am speaking of a racist system, not of individuals. You are a victim of this sytem as much as I am. I am not here to offend anyone, but I pride myself on recognizing the truth regardless if it has a good or bad reflection on my race or not. When we recognize the truth and the root problem, only then can we begin to solve it. I am interested in solving the problem with Afro self hate, not in denying its existence. Now, since you brought it up I am going to address the issue of you marrying a Dominican woman. I think that is lovely and may God Bless you, but if you care about her and your children(or future children) you might want to listen and learn about the issues that surround people of her descent. That is intelligent. Getting offended isnt going to solve anything. The truth still remains the same.

By the Way, for your information and benefit: Racism is manfested in a system of power. It's the power to subjugate and oppress a group of people. I as a woman of color don't have the systemic power to implement institutionalized racism (discrimination, Jim Crow laws , taught self hate) into a society of people in order to divide, distroy and control them. Therefore, by definition I cannot be a racists. The word you are looking for is prejudice. Anyone can have negative or positive prejudging preceptions. In this case we are all alittle predjudice. And this is natural as long as we dont turn it into racism ( implimenting laws, discrimination, etc). Bob it is important to educate ourselves.
 

Antonia Preer

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Lesley D said:
Nals,

I read your comment several times before responding and once again I am lost. But not due to misdirection but rather disbelief. Your second line is the most ludicrous comment I have read in a long time, are you really serious? Just playing on the second line alone don't you think if the really dark skinned people are poor it is because they are victims of the racism that persist in the society which they live? As well, your comment is two fold: 1) yes, they may be poor because they are dark which is a reflection the DR's racial problem as stated in the article please note the title "pieles devaluadas" and 2) this racism reflects back on you to ASSUME that since they are dark they are poor which very well may not be the case.

Nals,

Como ya te dije, qu?tate la venda que est? tapando tus ojos. Ahora es cuando tratas de entender la ra?z del problema en vez de cubrirlo.

-Lesley D



I agree!!!! Finally someone with a Brain!!
 

NALs

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xamaicano said:
Relax Antonia, go to the DR. You will enjoy it. A lot.

Yeah Antonia, I'm Dominican and let me tell you, the thing about this racism is hardly experienced here in the DR.

Its mostly isolated cases, most Dominicans don't get shuned out of a club like that based on their skin color. In fact, speak with most Dominicans and they will tell you that racism doesn't exist in the DR. Why they say that? Because they have not experienced it, which proves my point. Racism is not widespread or endemic in Dominican culture.

You have a much greater chance of being stoped by a Cop in your country and beaten to death just for being black, before you experience anything racist here in the DR.

You will notice that white Dominicans, black Dominicans, and mulatto Dominicans will always smile at you, treat you with decency, treat you with respect as long that you treat them in those manners. If you get shuned away for being black at the doorsteps of a high class club, just go to the other club down the road! Its that simple!

Hopefully you will come to the DR and see how things truly are. Based from your impression of this board, you will be most likely surprised and you will go back to the US with a sense of thinking that will make you feel welcomed, loved, and even almost a part of Dominican culture.

You (and anybody else for that matter) will never ever ever understand Dominican culture until you come here and experience it. You might not get what I am trying to tell you, but once you visit here the DR, you will get it 100%, guaranteed!
 

bob saunders

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Antonia Preer said:
First of all Bob, when I say "anglo imperialists", I am speaking of a racist system, not of individuals. You are a victim of this sytem as much as I am. I am not here to offend anyone, but I pride myself on recognizing the truth regardless if it has a good or bad reflection on my race or not. When we recognize the truth and the root problem, only then can we begin to solve it. I am interested in solving the problem with Afro self hate, not in denying its existence. Now, since you brought it up I am going to address the issue of you marrying a Dominican woman. I think that is lovely and may God Bless you, but if you care about her and your children(or future children) you might want to listen and learn about the issues that surround people of her descent. That is intelligent. Getting offended isnt going to solve anything. The truth still remains the same.

By the Way, for your information and benefit: Racism is manfested in a system of power. It's the power to subjugate and oppress a group of people. I as a woman of color don't have the systemic power to implement institutionalized racism (discrimination, Jim Crow laws , taught self hate) into a society of people in order to divide, distroy and control them. Therefore, by definition I cannot be a racists. The word you are looking for is prejudice. Anyone can have negative or positive prejudging preceptions. In this case we are all alittle predjudice. And this is natural as long as we dont turn it into racism ( implimenting laws, discrimination, etc). Bob it is important to educate ourselves.

From the encylopedia Britanica:
any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview?the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called "races," that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral features, and that some races are innately superior to?etc.

I'm am not a victim of the same system as you, the system developed by "anglo imperilists". I am a Canadian brought up to believe that all humans deserve the same respect until they prove that they are not deserving of it, to treat each person objectively and separately, not as a race. My grandfather was a russian jew, and they have been subject to systematic racism that has nothing to do with "anglo imperilism", however since we are talking about the DR ,racism is alive and well in the DR and although it isn't as harsh as in many parts of the world it is present throughout Dominican culture. Having said that President Leonel Ferdandez is of mixed descent.
 

NALs

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bob saunders said:
however since we are talking about the DR ,racism is alive and well in the DR and although it isn't as harsh as in many parts of the world it is present throughout Dominican culture. Having said that President Leonel Ferdandez is of mixed descent.

BTW, for those of you confused about my post, what I high lighted of bob saunders is what I was trying to say.

Also, about the presidency deal. Leonel who is mixed (like three quarters of Dominicans) was running against two white Dominicans (evil Hippo being one and the leader of the PRSC party). Now, why was Leonel re-elected? I mean, God forbid it would have been Hippo, but the leader of PRSC could have done it if race is so fundamental as it is believed to be by so many foreigners.

I must say, that through out history there have always been a number of foreign intellectuals trying to instill that racism in the DR is worst than anywhere! I remember reading a book that said that President Balaguer ordered the urban renewal project of Samana to hide his town black heritage! Um, wasn't Balaguer born in La Vega, so how could Samana be his town to begin with and secondly, the funds used to develop Playa Dorada were suppose to be used in Samana to make Samana the first mega tourist destination in the DR. Out of all the places in the DR, Samana is home to most of the 100% pure blacks of the DR and yet, Balaguer chose that place as his first beneficiaries of this then new industry called tourism which has proven to be very benefitial to the country!

There will always be foreigners (both intellectuals and the idiots) trying to paint the DR as the worst country in terms of racism. Yet, leave your racist mentallity in the North American mainland or in Europe and open your eyes to anything and you will see that the DR is a country where people of all races don't just live next to each other, they actually marry each other, intermingle, mix and so on and so fourth with no regrets!

Even in the 1800s this lack of racism persisted in the DR. The area near Cabarete on the north coast was once purchased by an American couple (the man was white the wife was black and their children were mulatto). They were in the Carolinas or Georgia I believe and they decided to MOVE to the DR because there was too much hate against them in their own country. THEY CHOSE THE DR BECAUSE NOBODY CARES ABOUT PEOPLES SKIN COLORS AND WHETHER PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT RACES MIX. It doesn't mean Dominicans are not conscious of the differences and it doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist, but it does mean that this country, the Dominican Republic is closer in terms of a Utopia when it comes to race mingling, more so than any other country on earth!

Once you visit the DR without judging, but accepting it for what it is, then you will notice that what I am saying here is the absolute Dominican truth!
 

caicos

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Some basic definitions

Part of the problem in discussing race relations anywhere is that everyone has their own definition of certain words. From the sociologists' point of view, here are the basic definitions of:

prejudice - preconcieved idea about a specific group of people (bias for or against)

discrimination - acting for or against a specific group (i.e. implimenting laws that deny or favor a certain group, segregation, etc.)

racism - treating people differently than the nt group based on some observable difference (i.e. skin color, hair texture, eye shape)

Perhaps if everyone uses the same definitions, feelings won't get hurt because someone used a word incorrectly.
 

Chris_NJ

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I am curious...

Nal0whs said:
the DR is a country where people of all races don't just live next to each other, they actually marry each other, intermingle, mix and so on and so fourth with no regrets.

In past posts you have said that you are Dominican of 100% European ancestory (Spanish, French, and British if I remember correctly).
What would your parents' reaction be if you were to have a spouse who was a Dominican but either black or mixed decent?
 

NALs

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Chris_NJ said:
In past posts you have said that you are Dominican of 100% European ancestory (Spanish, French, and British if I remember correctly).
What would your parents' reaction be if you were to have a spouse who was a Dominican but either black or mixed decent?

It's Spanish, French, and Dutch ancestry.

My old folks were racist, but not on the race distinction itself. It was more monetarily.

If it was black or mixed, if they are part of the upper crust they would probably would have "approved" of it.

However, if it was a poor black or mixed, they would disapprove because they are of the lower classes. Even if it was a rare poor blonde Dominican girl, even herself would not be accepted into the family.

The logic behind such thing is that one has to be much much more weary of the motives for a poor person to marry someone of higher status, where as if you marry someone on your own economic and social status, there is little chance that I was going to be used as a welfare system.

Your probably asking, why did your family remained along caucasian lines if race was no factor?
There is no real direct answer to that, but I'll say that it came out that way because for most of the DR history wealth and high status was holded by mostly whites. Today, whites still hold much of the wealth and status, but it is becoming more mixed as the children of newly riches begin to take a sense of belonging into the upper classes. I don't expect the family to remain fully white for much long, but I am open to accept other folks as long that they are of the same economic and status level as myself and that of my family. After that is secured, then comes whether or not we feel comfortable around the person based on his/her personality, not skin color. Remember, I am a Dominican and day in and day out I interact on different levels with Dominicans of all kinds (the cashier at the store, the street vendors (usually just telling them no), the car attendant, a business associate, etc.). So, I am open to accept black or mixed Dominicans into the family, but as long that the economic background is similar to that of my family.

If all of this sounds confusing, put it this way. When a white foreigner comes and says that they visited the DR and fell in love with a poor Dominican, what pops into your mind as the motives for the Dominican to be "in love" with this foreigner? Probably, the Dominican is in it for the money since he/she is so poor. The truth is that such thing can't be known until it has been proven and in the proven process, money is lost and feelings are hurt. So, to avoid suchthing, its better to just avoid mingling with the lower class, at least when it comes to finding a mate.
 
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Tordok

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every effect has a cause

In most slave societies, the victimizing "race"and the "victimized race" do not mix to the extent that it has occurred on the island of Santo Domingo over the last few centuries. This produced a particular set of precedents that still linger in today's DR society.

In next door neighbor Haiti, the Africans rightfully revolted against, and essentially wiped out the brutal regime of the European (French) "masters". Interestingly, at the time of the Haitian independence revolution and unlike in most other slave societies, some free creole mulattoes in St. Domingue where as wealthy and educated as the absentee plantation owners in Paris. And they owned slaves too. There were indeed some isolated cases, where African former slaves, that onced freed went on to own slaves themselves. The French "code noir" went into excruciating detail to catalogue every possible permutation of "racial miscegenation" and it stratified societal hierarchies accordingly. Many rights were denied to otherwise free citizens. Affluence and social standing often did not match. Following the French Revolution - the ideas of equalit?, etc..- had a huge impact in this overseas colony, and it evolved into an eruption of racially-defined genocidal violence.

During that time, in Spanish Santo Domingo (today's DR) the population of actually African-born slaves was small. And the conditions in the smaller-scale economic activities of the Spanish colony were also substantially less brutal than in the large plantations of St. Domingue (today's Haiti). The French St. Domingue system was such that slave labor was continuously supplied to replace the many deaths among the exploited laborers. In the eastern part of the island, several generations of native born Whites, Blacks and people of mixed ancestries coexsisted in, what by comparison, was a less rigid caste system. Economic conditions in the Spanish Santo Domingo side allowed for a more relaxed form of racial codification and people of African and European descent had already mixed much more than in Haiti and people of various degrees of "mixing" could achieve equal legal, political and economic standing, if not always the so-called equal standing in "high society".

In colonial times both the DR and Haiti were slave societies, but once the DR was born as a country, Whites, Mulattoes and Blacks all learned to live with one another and racial violence has been practically nonexistent since.
There is no history of Jim Crow, and much less a KKK equivalent in the DR. After slavery is abolished, no institutional forms of segregation were implemented. Strong social biases and inequality, yes. But popular-based organized hatred, not that I know of. The only exception might be Trujillo's killing spree against Haitians in 1937, but race was only one factor, among others such as religion, language and national allegiance issues.

Racial biases do exist, but racial violence is practically unheard of. I believe that this is a significant difference with other societies with a legacy of slave societies. Upward mobility in the DR is quite possibly much more fluid than in other Caribbean and Latin American nations, even in spite of the ugly remnants of racism that persits. Even the terrible conditions of today's bateyes, which is an inhumane economic form of opression, is NOT (contrary to conventional wisdom) a race-based system of opression. Haitians are being exploited in sugar cane fields not for their complexion, but because of their unfortunate economic and migratory reality.

Problems of racial prejudice, including racism, are a a global phenomenon. It just so happens that different societies have dealt with it differently and each has its own manifestations of the problem. Some of you may find apparent contradictions in what I say above, but this only reflects the many contradictions that we find when trying to get a clear picture of race relations in the DR. In many ways it is one of the most racially open societies, and in some others it is still one of the most anachronistic. This is why, I think, that many of the people above cannot believe what the other is saying when referring to the same people. They are simply telling it like they see it, and in this sense everyone is a little right, and quite possibly everyone is a little wrong. Welcome to the world of complex ambiguities.

- Tordok
 

NALs

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I am stunned beyond belief!

Congratulations Tordok, that had to be the clearest and most accurate account of race in the island of Hispaniola!

Bravo!

One thing that is under my speculation, but probably is true is that when the DR got its independence from Spain (the 1821 independence which was stripped from us over night by invading forces from Haiti) the DR actually had whites as a majority, making about three quarters of the population at that time. After the Haitians took control for 22 years, there was an exodus of white Dominicans to Puerto Rico and Cuba. These Dominicans were mostly whites with racist ideas who could not accept being ruled by the "africans". So, maybe that is why the DR ended up being more tolerant than Puerto Rico or Cuba or Haiti when it came to racial differences. Maybe it was because the whites left behind, were the whites who thought of blacks as humans, but still destested the Haitian domination, as such that could also explain the deep routed disdain for anything Haitian that exist in the DR to this day.

Overall, I am impressed with Tordok's response, very precise, very clear, very accurate.

Congratulations once again!
 
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