Government Sleaze

[mondongo]

The 4 Ms

We need Dominicans with:

1) Money
2) Morals
3) Motivation
4) Mental Capacity

Money to remove temptations from the dark side. Morals to not abuse power. Motivation to put your life on the line when battling the thugs. Mental capacity to set the correct course. That is what we need. We have a few on this board.

 

[Escott]

Rubbish. Nothing of the sort. The DR needs a dictator about as much as the state of Maine needs trees.

Dictators went out of style with Pinochet. Haven't you heard? In fact, regardless of Trujillo's aforesaid accomplishments, he did not leave the Dominicans with the one skill they needed most: How to govern themselves. Everytime someone is elected to the Presidency there, they think the country is their own private sandbox.

(Of course, after a prepatory course in nation building over in the Middle East, maybe Bremer will be available? Hell, if he can teach responsible government to the Iraqis, the DR would be a cakewalk for him.)

I think I said this about two years ago when I saw the way the country was run and Guiliani was out of a job. Hire Ruldolf Guiliani to run the country for a few years as a dictator and let him straighten this shit out.

I wasn't kidding. I don't see a Dominican in sight that can do what he can and would if he would even consider the stinking job.

Scott

 

[Amicus]

I wasn't kidding. I don't see a Dominican in sight that can do what he can and would if he would even consider the stinking job.
Scott

Good idea - wrong country. What works in NYC does not always work in the Caribbean - except for corruption that is.

The Dominicans have got to find either their own Giuliani or Thatcher. And, as I have said before, the largest problem in the DR is their attachment to the US. This is wrongheaded. The US is culturally, economically and psychologically as different from the DR as it is from Europe (which is why the US is having a major problem in its relations with the latter.) After all, it is both an ex-Spanish and French colony, both Latin cultures like the DR.

What this debate is about is this: The dignity of men and women to decide thier own lives. This will wash better in Europe than the US, which is far too fixated on material enrichment as a class distinction. The DR could never tolerate a class divergence in incomes as the US has developed.

The US is simply looking out for it own ass, and could not care a fly's fart for what it considers a "banana republic" - unless it got a hint that too much drug trafficking was coming via the DR. Which is a distinct possibility. If this happens, the DR will not like the response that this administration makes.

Any effort for assistance should focus on Europe, where the cultural correspondence is much, much closer. The EU would likely lend a very favorable ear to helping. It is dead tired of the US messing with the East European countries that have negotiated entry to the EU; and an opportunity to give a bit of the hassle back to the US would probably look good. The EU is fed up with the Texas gunslinger mentality presently running the US, believe me.

 

[Amicus]

Sammy get seven

Sammy Sosa is a fine baseball player, and probably a role model to any young Dominican who wants to succeed.

Sammy is being sanctioned for a error he willingly admitted to. It could happen to anyone, and lets give Sammy the benefit of the doubt.

What is important to underscore is this: There are rules to baseball as there are rules to any game. Break the rules, and you get sanctioned. But, break the rules and there is no sanction is chaos.

That too must be tought to the young, and not only in schools and in the home. It is taught by example. If men/women of any consequence (politicians and business leaders) lead lives of thieves, and get away with it, how can you expect any youth in any country to adopt another, more honest behaviour?

Answer: You can't. Result: Anarchy.

 

[Escott]

Good idea - wrong country. What works in NYC does not always work in the Caribbean - except for corruption that is.

What this debate is about is this: The dignity of men and women to decide thier own lives. This will wash better in Europe than the US, which is far too fixated on material enrichment as a class distinction. The DR could never tolerate a class divergence in incomes as the US has developed.

The DR has the same class divergence in incomes as the US and the DR does tolerate it. Except for the kidnappings.

You speak about the dignity of men and women to decide their own lives? Haven't they decided themselves into the mess that they are currently in? Where is the dignity right now? It is a crying shame what they decided themselves into and could do again for a couple of pesos spread around the barrios and the mountains. That is dignity? No dignity can only be achieved by accepting the tough love that they need in my opinion.

The US is too fixated on material enrichment as a class distinction? Europe is better? We have a difference of opinion. Give Europe a few more years of the French and Germans trying to control the continent. This will prove very interesting. It is the outcome that will argue my point.

Have you ever been to the DR? It sure doesn't seem so to me judging by your posts.

 

[Escott]

It is dead tired of the US messing with the East European countries that have negotiated entry to the EU; and an opportunity to give a bit of the hassle back to the US would probably look good. The EU is fed up with the Texas gunslinger mentality presently running the US, believe me.

Do you think that the US gives two buckets of camel dung what "TWO" of the countries in the EU think? I think that there are MORE countries in the EU that side with Bush than side with France and Germany.

I remember France threatening the countries that applied to join the EU no entrance if they sided with the US. Now that got far didn't it.

Have no fear, the US will still protect you even after the way you acted if the need arises AGAIN and AGAIN as it has before so feel free to talk rubbish.

 

[Amicus]

Originally posted by jazzcom
You speak about the dignity of men and women to decide their own lives? Haven't they decided themselves into the mess that they are currently in?

Yeah, right. The poor "chose" the misery of poverty. The middle-class "chose" to live precariously dependent upon the inflation index. As for the rich, they obviously "chose" to exploit the corruption for their benefit.

All this was a matter of choice. Free country, isn't it?

No dignity can only be achieved by accepting the tough love that they need in my opinion.

"Tough love"? Who do you think these people are, Army rookies?

They could teach you and I a couple of lessons about tough love. Like waking up not knowing wherefrom your mother will provide breakfast. Is that the kind of "tough love" you imply.

Or, is it a couple of years of IMF and World Bank imposed austerity by which the loans will be repaid by monies better used elsewhere? Were you in Brazil and Argentina when this sort of "tough love" was administered there? It wasn't a nice sight seeing the middle-class sell thier household belongings to provide food.

The ordinary Dominican has had no choice whatsoever between right and wrong. It has always been between more wrong and less wrong - which has had this economy working at far below its potential.

Furthermore, I am not espousing that they be handed a solution in the form of more money grants ... that go down a black hole and achieve nothing. All they need do is correct the endemic corruption, and the rest will work itself out. It will not grant them a lifestyle of either American or European proportions, but not everyone needs to be driving about in a gas-guzzling SUV.

The US is too fixated on material enrichment as a class distinction? Europe is better? We have a difference of opinion. Give Europe a few more years of the French and Germans trying to control the continent. This will prove very interesting. It is the outcome that will argue my point.

I am certainly NOT proposing for the DR a socialist government. Neither would I propose the present American economic structure. Neither are adapted to the DR reality. The truth is somewhere in between, and I am merely suggesting that the Dominicans need to find it for themselves.

Have you ever been to the DR? It sure doesn't seem so to me judging by your posts

Yes, so?

The Dominican Republic is having much the same problems as a good many countries around the world have had for the past thirty years: An incumbent class of individuals with their hands on the lever of power simply for personal enrichment.

It has happened in Iraq, Myanmar, Indonesia and to a more subtle effect in France, Italy and a few other Latin European countries.

I am simply not one of those who looks at the potential of something gone awry by mismanagement and says, "Well, hell, the ignorant bastards deserve it!"

 

[Escott]

Yes they elected the same people that ROB them of everything including their dignity. Then they re-elect them. All for a couple of pesos these officials bring up to the mountains at the end of the year.

Do you ever answer a direct question or just do a song and dance? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO THE DR?

"Or, is it a couple of years of IMF and World Bank imposed austerity by which the loans will be repaid by monies better used elsewhere? Were you in Brazil and Argentina when this sort of "tough love" was administered there? It wasn't a nice sight seeing the middle-class sell thier household belongings to provide food."

Money better used elsewhere? You really think that they have a choice here? My God man, it is too late for independant choice.

Listen, you seem educated but it is THEIR and not THIER. It is getting annoying.

I know you don't think anything I suggest is good. What the hell can I expect, you are European and TALK TALK TALK but do NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. It is part of your culture while I am a TEXAS COWBOY and get things done right or wrong but at least I do SOMETHING.

My recommendation is that they should HIRE an Administrator to run the country from OUTSIDE of the country until they can understand some of the values that WILL BE instilled in them that they lack as a population. YES that is right, until they figure out that it isn't good to live on BRIBES AND PAYOFFS and lining your pockets with the blood sweat and tears of others to the detriment of the rest of the society. Rudolf Guiliani I think is a great candidate for this but he probably wouldn't want the headache. There isn't anyone in Europe that stands out. I can't wait to see what happens there in a few years.

That is my tough love I have to offer. This administrator can also teach them to clean up after themselves at the beach. You know basic law and order instead of propina and outright graft.

 

[mondongo]

We squandered an opportunity to learn from frederic. Shouldn't we keep this stuff out of the business thread?

 

[Amber]

Listen

In current times, we are being governed by a confederation of groups that calls itself PRD whose political ideology, if one stretches the meaning of the word, consists of acquiring power to be used at whim where anything but capacity, morality, organization or planning could exist. This will explain why people?s paychecks could be docked to pay for re-election campaigns; why a member of the governing party will attack his own to gain the public eye eventhough he would do likewise if in power.

Three years ago, this country was firmly on its way towards development, but upon the arrival of the current authorities, they have made it their crusade to disorganize that which had already been organized. To site an example, three years ago, there were no cops asking for their ?propina? in the streets and getting your license was easily and simply accomplished.

Do all Dominicans lack the sense to see that the country is headed for disaster? No! Most of us are battling against mounting odds to take our families through this and are fighting to change the current ?order? of things. Most of us will not give in to threats nor will we stand for any more abuse. The battle is being silently fought, but the masses will soon join in as Amicus pointed out. On which side of the fence will some of you be standing? Will a return to the development we were experiencing in the past administration be a deterrent to those who would rather have impoverished Dominicans to prey upon?

Does this thread belong in the business section? Yes!! How could the current policies that have undermined the business sector so badly be ignored here?

Will I get banned along with Chiri for not agreeing with those who must be listened to? Who cares?

:bored:

 

[Texas Bill]

You can bet your last peso that I agree fullu with the generalization that the government of the DR is corrupt, full of administrators guilty of malfeasance, a bunch of jicky-jack New York con-artists and all the other drrrogatory adjectives you can use.
One exception I take is the allusion that because a person doesn't speak Castillian Spanish, he's a no-good nincumpoop!
Language development in any nation goes through many periods of adjustment and change from it's mother tounge and thus from it's origins ;adjustments/changes take place over a long period of time; sometimes centuries.
In the USA, the original English spoken by the colonists, who by the way came from different parts of England to begin with, was corrupted by the introduction of foreign tounges over the first 100 or so years. Later, due to the isolation of the inhabitants of Kentucky, Tennessee, Northern sections of Mississippi and Alabama, the present day American English began to spread North and West through the then frontier areas to the Pacific Shores.
American English has also been further corrupted by the adoption of vocabulary returning with members of the Armed Forces having served overseas.
Correct, acceptable speach depends on proper grammer being used, correct words to express an opinion, and not on the rules set by any foreign(in this case Spain) experts.
Education plays a large part in speech patterns, BUT not to the extent of negating the usage of the language learned at the mother's knee or from peers in the society in which one is raised.
One can't, in all fairness, denegrate another for his use of "campo" language structure any more than for being the wrong color. To do so is trying to prove a point through prejudice.
You become like the Christian Evangelist who says you're going to Hell if you don't believe as he does and proves it from scriptual quotation.
Enough said!
Bye.
Texas Bill

 

[Chris]

Thank You! Amber! Somehow you made more sense in one post than everyone else put together.

So, if you or Chiri get banned, I'll go out with you in protest! Unless of course, I get banned first!

Chris with an h, aka Christa

 

[Robert]

Nobody is getting banned. Some of you need to learn how to express your opinions or debate with out resorting to, let's call them "bad" words. You can all stop sending me PM's and emails, it's been dealt with. Let's move on and keep this "debate" rolling...

 

[Chirimoya]

First of all thanks Robert for mopping up the mess here and for moving this to the Debates forum.

Now that the obligatory brown nosing is over with, let me put in my point of view.

I had been enjoying reading the discussion, which although got confrontational at times was bringing up some good points on all sides. Jazzcom, you make a huge assumption when you imply that I am one of the 'Lefties' who stuck up for Amicus and claimed righteous indignation. I get pissed off with people attacking each other personally no matter what their political standpoint is. I know for a fact you are able to have a civil political discussion with someone you do not agree with (me) so why all this confrontational posturing on the boards?

I exchanged PMs with Amicus pointing out some of the areas where the suggestions might sound good but had little chance in working in reality, based on my direct experiences of working with a small political party and a foundation which were set up precisely to fight against clientilism and corruption in Dominican politics and to promote educational campaigns with the electorate and public institutions. These organisations are worthy but even they accept that they have little chance of making a huge difference in the short-term.

Amber sums it up, I think. It is a more credible analysis of why Dominicans are stuck in the mire - too much to worry about at home and in the short term to be able to make longer term sacrifices. Also, when people say Dominicans can change things by voting, I maintain that although there have been high and low points in the last three governments - PRSC, PLD and PRD respectively - there is no realistically electable party with the courage to break the mould of clientilism and corruption.

The lesser evil may be the PLD, and they or whoever wins the next election should be handed the challenge to break that mould.

Chiri

 

[Amicus]

Re: Listen

Do all Dominicans lack the sense to see that the country is headed for disaster? No! Most of us are battling against mounting odds to take our families through this and are fighting to change the current ?order? of things. Most of us will not give in to threats nor will we stand for any more abuse. The battle is being silently fought, but the masses will soon join in as Amicus pointed out. On which side of the fence will some of you be standing? Will a return to the development we were experiencing in the past administration be a deterrent to those who would rather have impoverished Dominicans to prey upon?

Bravo! Amber.

Don't remain bored, get involved. Light a candle .. and not at the church.

 

[Amicus]

The lesser evil may be the PLD, and they or whoever wins the next election should be handed the challenge to break that mould.

Chiri

I am admittedly not an expert on Dominican politics. But, I have opinions regarding politics as a means for change.

When confronted with a preponderance of either one or two parties in combination, the only alternative is that of "King Maker". That is, a representation big enough to determine who creates a government, but not large enough to do so oneself.

Even the smallest parties can influence change, look at the Liberal Democrats in the UK, or the Free Democrats in Germany or the Greens everywhere. These parties are persistent, and if they never run a government, they can have leverage influence on those that do.

Wanting clean government is a "non-political" objective. That is, whether of the right or left, it contains a powerfully attractive message.

Change cannot happen overnight, and requires a sustained commitment far into the future - but the political effort to bring it about certainly is better than complaining perpetually about the present.

 

[Chirimoya]

In an election, the party I mentioned (APD) would give its votes to the PLD. But they are not big enough for leverage.

I can think of examples where this is a negative thing, too: just take the small religious parties in Israel who hold the balance of power when the two main parties try to form a government and so get to impose their medieval values as a result!

Chiri

 

[Amicus]

I can think of examples where this is a negative thing, too: just take the small religious parties in Israel who hold the balance of power when the two main parties try to form a government and so get to impose their medieval values as a result!

Chiri

The problem in Israel, like that in Italy and elsewhere, is that there is no filtering of the tally. Filtering means that if a party that does not reach a certain minimum of the total percentage of votes (say 5%) is not counted, then they are effectively sidelined.

Some remark that this is not democratic, and they may be right. Others say that it forces people not to squander a vote on insignificant parties. They may be right as well.

I prefer the two round system, where a full field of candidates in the first round are reduced to a run off between the top two in the second round. This allows voters to vote with their hearts in the first round and their minds in the second - a very adept way of taking into account the specific Latin psychology at play.

 

[mariaobetsanov]

Need Reforms!Due for a Trujillo?

Democracy the way it set up in DR is Missing a check and balance system where the affairs of all poblic employee, from the president to the postman are subject to inspections. We need video cameras everywhere.
When I lived in SD I suggested that if we art hanging the thieves within the gov't using electrical poles in the capitol city, we will have to cut down the first hung, to hang the second bach. My uncle was speachless with anger, I said this in the front of the member of the president cabinet, Bobadilla, he thought I had hit the nail on the head. The laws have been always for the poor, wait until the woman goes on trail for bank- funds stealing, she will not get equal justice!

 

[Amicus]

Re: Need Reforms!Due for a Trujillo?

Democracy the way it set up in DR is Missing a check and balance system where the affairs of all poblic employee, from the president to the postman are subject to inspections. We need video cameras everywhere.

I am not sure about the video-camera bit, but they do seems to have reduced effectively street crime significantly in the UK. Of course, this is just one tactic.

The checks and balances are unique to the US, where the three branches (Executive, Congress, and Supreme Court) remain independent and autonomous. Elections to the Congress and Executive branches are every two and four years, so this gives the electorate ample opportunity to express its sentiment - which is goodness.

A better "check and balance" is the referendum. Assuring, with a minimum percentage of citizen's signatures, that a referendum can be held that gives direct public sentiment regarding an issue is the best check to a Congress that has gone too far.

Funny enough, with the exception of Switzerland, such referendums are rare. In some European countries it is hell to get a referendum on a ballot. It makes one wonder, "Just what are parliamentarians afraid of". That their power will be sapped by public referendum. Politics is all about power.