Haber...

[Marianopolita]

I never thought I would see the day when Bien Dicho finally addresses this grammar point that is probably one of the biggest grammatical errors in Spanish that I have observed along with the incorrect usage of pronouns such as le and lo. Believe it or not I used to have a teacher in SD (for a short period of time) who I considered very good and a stickler for grammar but even her usage of the verb haber was incorrect and I knew that I should not follow her pattern of speech.

The verb haber in Spanish is an auxiliary verb and impersonal. The correct grammatical form is:

1/ the third person singular

2/ this includes all tenses- present and past

- speakers who err do so in the past tense not realizing that it's completely incorrect not to mention it just does not make sense since haber is an impersonal verb as opposed to an action verb. Compare "he jumps" to "there are three women". He jumps= an action verb. There are three women= there's no action involved. The women are not doing anything. There's no action expressed in the sentence.

Good grammar teachers normally teach this concept as:

Hay, hab?a, hubo etc. = all singular forms of the verb in different tenses.

Hay tres mujeres, hab?a tres mujeres, hubo... etc.

- now you will hear people say hab?aN tres mujeres, hubieroN tres mujeres which is totally incorrect not mention it makes no sense. Education really does play a role in this grammar concept because good speakers of Spanish will not say this. As well some do mock at those who speak this way. I have a few friends who will stop a conversation entirely when they hear someone say hab?aN tres mujeres or equivalent incorrect usage.
- The usage of haiga and all its forms is totally archaic. It's heard in the DR for sure, as well as other parts of the Caribbean. It's considered a "vulgarismo" in linguistic terms or a "solecismo". To understand the (incorrect) usage consider the speaker, levels of language and education.


Here's the article:

Publicado el viernes 16 de noviembre del 2007
BIEN DICHO
La primera persona del plural en el presente del modo indicativo del verbo haber es hemos, no habemos. Es incorrecto emplear esta forma arcaica con el sentido de somos o estamos, as? como en funci?n auxiliar. De este modo, es un grav?simo error construir oraciones como por ejemplo:

'Habemos demasiadas personas aqu?' o `Hab?amos tres de nosotros en la reuni?n'.

En estos casos debemos recordar que este vebo es impersonal, y que actualmente su uso pr?ctico se limita a la tercera persona del singular o como auxiliar en todas sus formas.

Lo correcto es pues emplear hay (as?, en presente o cualquiera de sus formas de conjugaci?n) o somos/estamos:

1/ Hay demasiadas personas aqu?./Somos demasiadas personas aqu?.

2/ Hab?a tres de nosotros en la reuni?n./ Est?bamos tres de nosotros en la reuni?n.

Tambi?n es err?neo emplear las formas del presente del modo subjuntivo haiga, haigas, haigan, etc., en lugar de haya, hayas, etc.

___________________


-LDG.

 

[Marianopolita]

newuser-

Uses of "hay" in the present tense

Grammar books don't go into depth about the usage of hay because really its usage is quite simple. In Spanish it is used to express there is, there are. For example hay dos, hay tres, hay dos cuadros etc. The form itself is a special form when not used as an auxiliary verb. It derived from ha + y an obsolote adverb. If you speak French it plays the same role as il y a (Il y a deux, il y a trois). It is completely invariable.


Haber as an auxiliary verb must be used in its conjugated verb forms/ tenses. He/ has/ ha/ hemos/ hab?is/ han. This is what your 501 Spanish verb book details.

For example- He tenido un accidente, han ido a la tienda, Has tratado de ayudarme etc. These are examples of the present perfect tense but the same format is used for the other tenses.

As for orthography, it's an issue in the DR and in Latin America in general. The examples you cited, I have discussed many times in this forum. Grown adults and children alike write e tratado, e ido, e dicho. Lack of a sound education and the notion to read is the reason for these spelling errors.

You are correct it s/b "voy a ver". Once again consider the speaker(s) and the educational issues at play. In broad terms, phonetically the b and v in Spanish are the same however, many speakers err when writing words with these letters. Simple words like voy, vaca, venir are often misspelt combined with the example of phonetics you gave makes listening to some speakers a challenge. I have also heard people say that vamos a hacer xxx s/b vamos hacer. Again phonetics and education are the issues. As well, in linguistics these themes fall under the specialized study of sociolinguistics, which examines the relationship between language and society.


I hope this was helpful.



-LDG.

 

[Norma Rosa]

I don't believe it! Lesley, that verb was going to be my next "word of the week" for the reasons you have already explained.

Dominicans are constantly making this error. Thanks

 

[rolfdog]

Thanks for the grammar refreshment. I think it has been covered before, but haber is at times used in the "imperative" tense. He aqui, or combined with pronouns, such as
heme, hete, henos. These translate to here it is, here I am, there you are or have, here we have.

I do not believe I have heard these in conversation, but more in poetry and literature.
Is it used much in the DR?? Any comments.

Thanks

Steve

 

[M.A.R.]

Yeap I make the error all the time.

So how do I say "Yo no se si ella haiga/haya ido a la tienda". I know I'm saying it wrong but I could never remember the right tense or it doesn't sound right to me any other way.Help.

ok so I should be saying. "Yo no se si ella ha ido a la tienda"?

 

[Norma Rosa]

I don't believe it! Lesley, that verb was going to be my next "word of the week" for the reasons you have already explained.

Dominicans are constantly making this error. Thanks

I need to correct my own statement. I said "Dominicans" but this is an error that occurs everywhere. The error is made because people normally follow a pattern: Aqu? comieron tres mujeres. Aqu? trabajan muchos hombres.

 

[Marianopolita]

Contestando-

Norma-

I guess the best word to describe this coincidence is "telepathy". The verb haber is problematic not only from an orthographic perspective, however, understanding correct verb usage is problematic as well. My answer to anyone one who asks is "go to your grammar books". The more advanced book is the more detailed the information presented. As well, I have a question for you regarding alboroto which I will ask later on. I am almost finished reading Isabel Allende's new book (which is fabulous by the way) and she used an interesting expression with alboroto that I have never heard before. I will add it to the correct thread in due time.

Steve (rolfdog)-

Your question is way too limiting for me. Bringing Spanish down to one country limits my personal scope. He aqu? is considered and old/ archaic form and as you mentioned it's common in literature and poetry. I would also say in formal letters and articles. That's where I see most of these forms with the verb haber. In the spoken language, I have never heard them used.

M.A.R. -

At least you admit that what you are saying is incorrect or at least the best grammarians will categorize your phrase as a perfect example of archaism. I will tell you when I read your phrase, it was tough because I don't hear Spanish like that at all, although I know it's possible. The only time I have heard a grammatical construction like what you posted was with a client I used have from Colombia. A young lady from Medell?n, Colombia spoke with some interesting regional archaisms that were typical of Colombia and other parts of Latin America.

Here is a definition from a specialized reference I have on the usage of the subjunctive (forms like haya (not haiga)) in a phrase like yours specifically after the word "si"-

"Los modos indicativo y subjuntivo alternan con el infinitivo (en caso de sujeto coincidente). No obstante, en espa?ol actual se prefiere el uso del indicativo. El uso del subjuntivo, que, en palabras de Porto Dapena (1991: 127), ?no deja de tener cierto sabor arcaizante?, es com?n en varias zonas de Hispanoam?rica".

Your phrase- "Yo no se si ella haiga/haya ido a la tienda". =Archaic (and considered incorrect in modern Spanish grammar)

Your phrase- Yo no se si ella ha ido a la tienda"= Perfecto


-LDG.

BTW- another error similar to haber is with the verb hacer- I have seen written in newspapers- hacen tres d?as que... and s/b hace tres d?as que...

 

[rolfdog]

Thanks Lesley, you're a wealth of information. But when is the subjunctive "haya" used. Is this correct?

Espero que ella se haya ido. I hope she has left.

 

[Marianopolita]

rolfdog-

Your phrase is correct. If you adhere to the rules of the subjunctive you won't err. Espero que + subj. is basic Spanish grammar regardless of the verb.

The phrase in question above with "no s? si..." + subj vs. indicative is a different nuance altogether and raised to another level of grammatical study as evidenced by the quote I cited.


-LDG.

 

[Marianopolita]

Otro buen ejemplo-

Bien Dicho continues to be an informative column for those who understand Spanish grammar at a very high level. As I read it everyday out of curiosity and interest, it never fails to point out the type of grammar errors that I like to analyze. It's these types of grammar tips and analysis that gives one absolute leverage in the Spanish language from a grammatical perspective. Today's entry is once again very relative to the verb "haber" and its modern usage. The example of incorrect speech is so subtle but once again as I mentioned in my first post, if you have a good teacher who truly has a good command of grammar (because not all do), this distinction with the usage as it relates to the weather should be clarified.

In the examples from Bien Dicho:

1/ Las mujeres ... deben llevar el velo por mucho calor que haya, es incorrecta,

y la expresi?n correcta es:

2/ Las mujeres ... deben llevar el velo por mucho calor que haga.


Why is it "haga" from the verb "hacer" and not "haya" from the verb "haber"?

Well, as one of my good grammar teachers used to say: Hacer is used for weather phenomenon to describe temperature (you can feel the heat, the cold) and haber is used for visible weather phenomenon.

Hace calor= sensation, feeling = you can feel the heat. (It is warm)

Hay sol= visible= one can see the sun. (It is sunny)


As I keep saying if you have a good educator from the start, one's foundation in grammar is never lost but only enriched. These are the subtleties of language that I always notice when analyzing Spanish grammar at all levels including my own.

Publicado el mi?rcoles 05 de deciembre del 2007

BIEN DICHO

Nos comenta el amigo Jos? Horacio Bailez, estudioso de nuestra lengua, que la oraci?n: Las mujeres ... deben llevar el velo por mucho calor que haya, es incorrecta, y que la expresi?n correcta es: Las mujeres ... deben llevar el velo por mucho calor que haga''.

Tiene raz?n al estimado Bailez, pues si bien el verbo haber se empleaba antiguamente en lugar de hacer en expresiones de tiempo, hoy no es as?. Hacer se usa como impersonal para indicar la existencia de fr?o, calor, sol, viento, etc. Ejemplos:

Hoy hace m?s fr?o que ayer.

All? estaremos haga fr?o o calor.

Tambi?n se emplea para referirse a c?mo est? el tiempo, el d?a, mes, a?o, etc. Ejemplos:

Hace una hermosa ma?ana.

El d?a en que naci?, hizo un tiempo infernal.

-LDG.

 

[Ladybird]

Lesley in simplistic terms when should you use haber and when should you use tener? Thanks

 

[Marianopolita]

In simple terms-

tener vs. haber both mean "to have".

Tener= to have in the sense of to possess or to own (tener as a transitive verb= meaning it takes a direct object).

There are also fixed expressions with tener in Spanish that are distinct from English but typical of the Romance languages. They just have to be learned for correct usage.

These fixed expressions with tener in Spanish express "to be" in English. Examples- Tener a?os, Tener fr?o, Tener raz?n, Tener sed etc.

Here's an old thread http://www.dr1.com/forums/spanish-101/40371-fixed-expressions-verb-tener.html

Haber= to have as an auxiliary verb in the compound tenses. Examples- He dicho= I have said, He hablado= I have spoken. As mentioned in my first post it is also an impersonal verb used only in the third person singular to express "there is", "there are" in various tenses. Examples- Hay, hab?a, hubo etc.


-LDG.

Lesley in simplistic terms when should you use haber and when should you use tener? Thanks