Haiti and Dominican Republic related topics and issues

[PICHARDO]

Well certainly the invasions and the Long Arm of Uncle Sam and the dictatorships were similar... but the DR never had the level of slavery that Haiti had...

plus the DR had Haitian rule, then going back to Spain, then independence---- And really has always seemed to maintain a good relationship with Spain which has given a lot of aid. The influence of France is felt in Haiti, of course, with the education system and the language but it was perhaps a more troubled relationship.

The only "influence" the French had over Haiti was the payment for their freedom and the elite's abhorrence for Creole which made them adopt French as their national language. Still today is clear that 100% of Haitians speaks Creole, but less than 20% of that population can carry a full conversation if any in French.

French is the idiom of exclusion for Haiti's social classes.
Only recently has Spain understood their lack of interests in Latin American countries it once was linked to as principal, to be of a mistake of Royal size.
This aid you talk about has only been truth as of later, to us the DR if anybody has ever put their money where their mouth is to us, has been the US. Even when their interests were their principal and most important issue to that regards, aid they gave us and plenty of.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Interesting and informative posts, Picardo. Quite interesting.

Once again, people try to place much of the blame for Haiti's problems on others-usually Dominicans.

Real change in Haiti has to begin with Haitian attitudes. Many Haitians I've spoken to agree with that. The Haitians are their own worst enemies...

 

[PICHARDO]

One heck of a news:


Haiti limited trade for RD in the context of EPA agreement it proposes to CARIFORUM and the EPA with the EU.


THE DOMINICANS PRODUCTS WOULD HAVE TO PAY HIGH TARIFFS

Delgado Esteban - 12/23/2009


Santo Domingo. The Haitian Government has decided to accept his entrance into the CARIFORUM to form part of the agreement of economic partnership with the European Union, but put a set of claims, including the majority of products with tariff protection that sells Dominican Republic to Haiti.

This situation has placed in a difficult situation to the local business sector that while favors the entry of Haiti to the EPA, as the agreement with the European Union, considers unfair that the nation places duties on products that generally it let duty-free into the country.

The conditions imposed by Haiti are contained in a declaration signed by Marie Micl?le Rey, Haitian Minister of foreign relations dated on the 10th this month of December.

It added that in its position of one of the poorest and least developed countries in the CARIFORUM countries, Haiti was not in a position to sign the EPA on October 15, 2008, as did other countries.

"Having thoroughly examined the text of the agreement, Haiti has decided to sign it and present it to Parliament for ratification, on the basis of the provisions for approval," indicates a paragraph of the statement.

Then the document expresses that Haiti reserves the right to apply measures of antidumping, countervailing or safeguard their trade as part of the agreement.

It also presents a series of items to be removed from the tariff exemption list. These products include many that currently Dominican sells and would have duties within the framework of the agreement.

However, domestic Dominican producers complain that these same products, from Nations that are not in the CARIFORUM could enter duty-free to Haiti, closing the market to the Dominicans.

Conditions

The entrance of Haiti to the EPA has been conditioned by the European Union, which considers unfair to leave out of the agreement to that nation.

This is in agreement of countries members of the CARIFORUM. However, not expecting that Haiti would make it a condition of duties to items that many years entered free of tariffs or with very low percentages into its territory. This adds the fact that those conditions of protection would not apply to Nations outside of the EPA.

The Declaration presented in point 3 two lists of 157 and 43 products and indicates that tariff commitments set out in Appendix 1 of annex III of the agreement with respect to goods originating in Europe, "and in consequence of any signatory State of the CARIFORUM", imported by Haiti will be considered withdrawn from the text of the agreement.


OPENING

The authorities of Haiti also cited 22 consignments of goods contained in annex III of the agreement, which has suspended its entry into force until 1 January 2020 whether originating in Europe or the CARIFORUM member countries include Dominican Republic.

"Accordingly, any signatory State of the CARIFORUM will not benefit from the tariff advantages provided for in the agreement for these products." "On that date, all these obligations shall apply, including the rates indicated in annex III of the agreement, Appendix 1", indicates the document submitted by Haiti.

LOL!!!


http://listindiario.com/app/article.aspx?id=125883

 

[mountainannie]

we should argue in person some time

Let me add some historical notes to this too!

When Haiti was a colony, the now called Haitians were slaves under their owners. They worked the land until night had fallen and not enough Moonlight was irradiated to continue the work. In fact, slaves pled for the Moon never to bee seen at nights so they could be spared the never ending work days!

This was the so storied time of the "Perl of the Antilles" epoch for Haiti (French Held Saint Domingue). One that Haitians still today fail to associate with what their ancestors rebelled against to regain their freedom and humanity.

Comparing the output of the then 13 British Colonies in the US at the time is like comparing grapefruits to walnuts... In French held Saint Domingue the slave population outnumbered their master by 100 to 1 at the very least, in the US then British ones the majority of work fell on the backs of those same natives born to colonists there and the same colonists now settled as well for good. The slave ratio in those colonies is too slanted towards the natives and colonist to even attempt a parallel comparing of the two.




Pure speculation on the part of many that write about Haiti's slavery as being more brutal than any face by any other negroes around.
There was not a steady supply or reserves of slaves fresh to pick from their suppliers for the French. The fact that slaves transported to the French held part of Hispaniola faced harder odds of survival was due to the size of the ships being used to transport them there. The territory held by the French in Hispaniola as not that big when compared to others in their grasp as colonial powers at time and until this day. As such, the need for slaves to replenish the slave force was not that huge to commit large resources into sending large ships to the island to that end. The French used the most economical transport they could find and that was the main reason that many to board those ill-fate boats made it alive to their end destination.

These boats were not the ones used and purposely arranged to carry full loads of slaves in long hauls. Many were just small and speedy boats that seldom could fit the slaves even standing up in their feet leaning against each other, much less tied down on their backs to the boat's wooden floors.
Lack of proper ventilation did most in before the trip was half underway, as those without endurance to extreme air lacking conditions lost consciousness soon after the many bodies there started to emit their toxins into the air.

The concentration of people exhaling built up enough polluted and oxygen lacking air to render all with massive headaches for the entire trips, that's without the boats own motion in the water.

The slaves aimed for Haiti post French take over of the side of Hispaniola, faced the same conditions as described above. That's why under the French rule, the slave brought to the island was less than their predecessors the Spanish. The French used free-lancers and pirate types of merchants (means the ones that attacked Spanish and British boats and not theirs) to have their new slaves brought to the colony.





Unlike today, at the time the swine flu propagate around the world's source markets, there was little cooperation between trading partners to quarantine a major threat like that. Today it may look silly to take that road and even irresponsible, but one needs to make the distinction that we had not other better choices at the time that took place!

To say that US pigs ate as three times as much as the Haitian pigs is uneducated at best. Pigs eat what you feed them and as much as you want. The Haitian pigs were adept from years, decades of fending for themselves around the country; the piglets replicated the parents actions and did the same. US pigs were born to feeders and knew nothing else than to be fed as such. As proven today in Haiti, they adapted to the law of the land and act and consume just the same portions and from the same sources their gone predecessors did.




Utter BS here! The US rice was introduced into Haiti via the USAID program, not the commercial way that goods are dumped into other countries. When the local industry responded by buying the aid rice and selling it for big profits to the locals, the US forced the Haitian gov to open the border to US rice to stop the industry from profiting and making the situation even worst for the majority of the Haitian poor which now had to buy even the US rice as well! The rice industry not only dared the US to enter the local market but promised to sell theirs under valued to the US to stop them. Guess who won that chicken race down the middle of the road?



The DR never increased its production based on the Haitian prospects after the faulty 2000 elections! The DR local production became big enough to source the local market and beyond it. As local farms raced in competition to out sell the other, a new market opened up in Haiti as the local producers there failed to become competitive and remained as they were for decades. Once the price of stocks for feed and related raw materials imported by both the DR and Haiti shot up in prices, the Haitian producers were now faced with their own products becoming far more expensive and less competitive than eggs and chicken related goods that were imported by boat into Haiti as far away as Mexico.

The DR over supply of eggs and chicken found a market for their goods and that's how they came to become the largest suppliers for the goods in the Haitian market until the ban came into effect. Even now DR eggs and chickens are still more competitive than US, Canadian, Mexican and the whole Caribbean suppliers of the goods to the Haitian market since the ban took effect. The local powers in Haiti want to go back to controlling the goods in that country and make a killing in profits in the backs of the poor there.

Simply put: Status Quo...

Well Picardo... I can start citing you books and stuff but what would be the point?

The US RICE that was introduced into HAITI... whether it was a "gift" or whether it was commercial dumping, did indeed undermine the local market. US rice is heavily subsidized, as I am sure you know. It used to be luxury food in Haiti but became a staple.......

And we can sit down sometime with some translators and talk with the egg producers in Haiti .. about the trucks of eggs that came into PauP during the boycott.. selling for one peso...THAT is how they expanded their markets...

I agree that the Haitians are their own worst enemies .. that the elite of Haiti have treated their own people far worse than any foreigners have treated them...

But when I listen to Dominicans and Haitians talk about one another, I think that I am listening to two adolescent boys.

 

[PICHARDO]

The facts are that the problems faced by Haiti today are the final product of at their own hands. Everybody mixes up an excuse to Haiti's drop in production, if that was the main cause then why is not the DR and all of CA in the same situation as Haiti? We got US cheap Rice up to the wazoo here for years! We can blame the whole world's chicken farms for driving their chicks kamikaze with the eggs to make the point, but here in the DR we faced not only Tyson chickens (and I'm not talking Mike’s legs here) for over a decade but also eggs that looked like hyper-Jumbo sized as well! Now tell me how we're still buying DR produced eggs and chickens???

There seems to be a new word to express the name of the Haitian Republic: EXCUSE REPUBLIC! Everybody has one in reserve for this situation! I'm just waiting for our first extraterrestrial contact to tape the exact moment they are also blamed for messing up Haiti with their ill-timed arrival to Earth! They will blame them for having taken too long to arrive and save the darned country!

Haiti is in the situation it is today because they live with an 1804 mentality, where is they against us. They would prefer to be swallowed by a black hole under them caused by massive predatory policies in their soil, than let a foreigner in to share the "Pearl of the Antilles"...

Take the Minustah forces out tomorrow and the very next day you'll have gangs controlling much of the country! Haiti is home to so many intellectuals ( as those that sent that letter to Fernandez) that one day they'll finally figure out that if you enact laws to allow people to build vertically and sell space above them or below, they won't see the whole land taken to build bidonvilles and mazes to fit the never ending stream of new babies being born to already struggling single mothers (which play lottery with the number of kids they can keep alive enough until they can provide for her and the home, which is kind of their retirement SS paycheck).

I gave it to you naked and for all to see, many don't like the truth unless is covered with enough sugar and chocolate syrup that it hides the ugliness enough to stand it...

You can give Haiti another century and if it continues to be the status quo with a new bank account to charge things, the entire debt erased to this point since France's toll on their freedom will look silly cheap to what we're going to end up with...

 

[Squat]

Pichardo's above post is right on the money...

 

[Hillbilly]

I seldom can side with Pichardo on some issues, but these recent posts are a lot closer to the truth than Annie's, I am afraid.

While Haiti was required by France to pay reparations as a way to become recognized, they also succeeded in isolating themselves at the same time they were struggling.

Given their vast wealth in the 18th Century you really have to look at the numbers (Like Cass? does) in the early--or for that matter, ever since--19th century. Haiti has never, ever come even close to matching their production.. (In an aside, that sort of cooks the "socialism" idiology in the nuts, doesn't it??) When it came to doing something for themselves, they failed miserably. Even under good leadership.

Now there is no reason to pi$$ on Haiti. They have a wonderful people and so many are really good folk. However, the realities are there. I, for one, heard that part of the egg embargo was due to the fact that some government officials has a deal in the States that brought eggs in a special deal...don't know for a fact...

But it seems obvious that basics like eggs, pork and rice chould be manageable, yet have not been. And please remember, as Pichardo mentioned, we too had to eliminate all the pigs in the DR at the same time...

Let's see fi we can wrap this discussion up with some conclusions...Anybody got some??

HB

 

[Lando calrisian]

Conclusion: Haiti, will continue to be administered with a UN viceroy, be it Clinton or whatever world figure takes pity on that broken land. The UN will provide the stability needed for Haiti to achieve a modicum of success. Once the UN leaves God only knows what troubles will start again, so let's hope they stay for awhile (20 years).

As Mountainannie has corroborated, the embryo tourist industry is experiencing a renaissance, that will definitely spur other developments, since many people fall in love with Haiti and it's people once they have experienced their warmth,charm. Haiti's pristine beaches and open solitary coastal area's might become preffered investment for real estate companies and a Haitian version of Las Terranas and Cap Canas will rise.


Haitians abroad will tentatively contribute but will maintain a wait and see attitude. Dominican merchants and businesses will continue investing in Haiti. Corruption will be an issue but hey in Latin America it's a fact of life.

However in light of the recent decision or tentative decision of Haiti to restrict or raise impediments on Dominican products, causes me to believe that Haitians will want use any new muscle on spurring an economic conflict of sorts with Dominican Republic.

 

[mountainannie]

I, for one, heard that part of the egg embargo was due to the fact that some government officials has a deal in the States that brought eggs in a special deal...don't know for a fact..

HB

I think that there is fact in both our stories.. in that the boycott on the Haitian side was not just eggs but also chickens ... which indeed a wealthy Haitian family DOES import from the US.... But the eggs were really to increase local production.

I would be a great deal more inclined to believe that you, HB and you, Picardo, had a better bead on Haiti than I do (Because I admit that I am prejudiced, having lived there, already being in love with the people) if I knew that you... like I... can at least read French and a bit of Kreyole, monitor even one, no less three of the internet list serves and weekly, at least, scan the Haitian papers.


And,---- to the mods... I will try really hard not to explode if you can leave this thread open for a bit... because I think that it might be a useful discussion.

 

[Chip]

I definitely think Haitian tourism can change things for a number of reasons. One, inveitably a percentage foreigners who come will want to stay and start businesses and two, Haitan expats who come for a visit will be encouraged to move back to Haiti and stay. I have talked to more than one Haitans in Florida who had reservations going back to Haiti even to vistit but that could change quickly.

I am fortunate to be involved with a fairly big (not Cap Cana big) resort project in Haiti that could really open the doors to more development. I understand my clients are trying to get financing, but if anybody know how the market is they'll see there isn't much going on. My hope is they will be breaking ground by 2011.

 

[POPNYChic]

I dunno about Haitians coming back from overseas to stay. I have tons of Haitian friends in the states and not ONE of them dares go back there even to visit. In fact, they vacation in the DR instead! They are extremely concerned for their safety. I just dont see that wave happening anytime soon.

 

[cobraboy]

Haiti a hot vacation spot? That's gonna take YEARS of expensive PR campaigns roughly equal to the GDP of Haiti annually to change the perception it's a crime-ridden hellhole just a click above Nigeria.

The #1 objection we have to overcome is convincing folks the DR is ~nothing~ like Haiti.