Haiti Riots Over Fuel Cost Increase

[jstarebel]

OKAP is the same in kind but different in degree than the protests in P-au-P. The protests in OKAP were outliers, relatively speaking. That's why you see people going about their daily business--because life remains normal, for the most part, in comparison to p-au-p. Of course, the people acting normally are concerned about what is going on.

I just did a little investigation on the International Monetary Fund. In Wikipedia, you will find a feature call "conditionality" that expresses why deep cuts in social programs are sometimes made. There is much criticism made of this aspect. Futher, you can go to imf.org and select a country, in this case, H for Haiti. I did that and found a brief video clip that explained that the fuel subsidy will be re-instated gradually. So it appears that the IMF has backed off. On the other hand, it could be that ANY change in petrol pricing will incite violent protest. Life on the economic edge does not brook negative change. If you are hungry and there is no money for food, it is fight or die.

I've been to Haiti twice. Both times working on their water treatment plant in PAP. First time in 2011. I was picked up at the airport by govt. officials and driven to the plant to train plant operators for DINEPA. We passed two dead people on the side of the road, and my three chaperones just kept right on talking as if it was normal as we drove by. The second time I was in Haiti, I was staying in La Plaza Hotel. Had a guy approach me to see if I wanted to buy a girl for $50.00. Not rent a prostitute, but buy as to own. He could even supply all necessary paperwork for an additional $100.00. I'm not a big fan of Haiti and feel sorry for the people there struggling to survive. Some of the most wonderful people I've ever met are Haitian, yet I have also encountered some of the most animistic humans I've ever seen in Haiti as well. I'm also not a big fan of Trinidad for these same reasons.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Unfortunately, walls are just that...walls. Walls fail: The Berlin Wall, The Great Wall of China...both failed in their purpose and intent. The East Germans still escaped and the Huns and Mongols still invaded. There has to be a better solution somewhere?

The walls you mentioned worked well until the people behind them decided they didn't want to use them anymore.

The Manchus were let in by Han officials in a desperate bid to quell anarchy in China.

Very few people managed to escape East Germany; the wall was effective. The 'Iron Curtain' of barbed wire, border posts and minefields worked well for decades. The Berlin Wall fell because the communist ideology was a failure and everyone in Eastern Europe knew it. (Too bad people in the Americas haven't entirely figured that out yet.)

Walls work if the people who build them want them to. It's that simple.

 

[Cdn_Gringo]

Walls and fences are intended to slow down those who would otherwise easily pass. Walls alone are not sufficient to thwart the determined. Bullets, explosives, man-traps and a determined protection force are what prevent people from circumventing a wall/fence. A wall is a symbol with an implied meaning - last chance to stop on your own or you will be stopped permanently.

When has a wall/fence all by itself ever kept the interlopers at bay? The Great Wall had legions of soldiers dumping hot tar and flinging arrows at those who approached. The Berlin Wall had guards with orders to shoot on sight, the 800 miles of migrant fencing in Europe is heavily patrolled.

When such symbols are put in place, you know the 2nd part is coming. The meaning of the symbol has to be reinforced continually and perpetually or it ceases to be anything other than a monument to wavering commitment.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Walls and fences are intended to slow down those who would otherwise easily pass. Walls alone are not sufficient to thwart the determined. Bullets, explosives, man-traps and a determined protection force are what prevent people from circumventing a wall/fence. A wall is a symbol with an implied meaning - last chance to stop on your own or you will be stopped permanently.

When has a wall/fence all by itself ever kept the interlopers at bay? The Great Wall had legions of soldiers dumping hot tar and flinging arrows at those who approached. The Berlin Wall had guards with orders to shoot on sight, the 800 miles of migrant fencing in Europe is heavily patrolled.

When such symbols are put in place, you know the 2nd part is coming. The meaning of the symbol has to be reinforced continually and perpetually or it ceases to be anything other than a monument to wavering commitment.

Walls were used to keep Hannibal from conquering Rome and the Ottoman Turks from taking Vienna. Walls have to be patrolled and maintained. That goes without saying.

A wall could keep Hispaniola from becoming the next Easter Island.

What is the alternative to building a wall: oblivion.

 

[Cdn_Gringo]

My point was that a wall alone is the not the definitive answer. It is only part of a response that will inevitably lead to the need to forcefully stop those not deterred by a wall or fence alone. How much force is applied is a measure of how serious the will to stop them is.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

My point was that a wall alone is the not the definitive answer. It is only part of a response that will inevitably lead to the need to forcefully stop those not deterred by a wall or fence alone. How much force is applied is a measure of how serious the will to stop them is.

Yes, I understood your point. My point is that walls work when people want them to. And in this situation, I don't believe the the country has much of choice. It's protect the country or be swamped by millions of migrants fleeing an increasingly desperate situation.

 

[ctrob]

Yes, I understood your point. My point is that walls work when people want them to. And in this situation, I don't believe the the country has much of choice. It's protect the country or be swamped by millions of migrants fleeing an increasingly desperate situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't already doing something. Increased patrols, readiness, etc. The writings on the wall.

A wall seems like a huge undertaking here, but who knows. It could happen. Electronic surveillance, foot patrols, dogs, and of course Navy patrols. Piece o' cake.

 

[Cdn_Gringo]

I agree with you Ogre, all of the more desirable places going forward will see an ever increasing number of individuals who want to relocate from where they are. Some will fill out paperwork and wait for a call, others will claim some sort of persecution to jump to the head of the line and some will just wait for darkness and hope no one is watching.

 

[slowmo]

I can't see how building a wall will stop people from paying a bribe to enter the country.

 

[rfp]

Something has to be done, what is happening is ridiculous. Even in nice areas of Santo Domingo there is fecal matter in the streets and sidewalks. I am not exaggerating when saying that it is a critical health risk in our urban areas.

Enough is enough. We need to show resolve as a nation and take care of our best interests or risk joining them as a completely failed state.

 

[rfp]

I agree with you Ogre, all of the more desirable places going forward will see an ever increasing number of individuals who want to relocate from where they are. Some will fill out paperwork and wait for a call, others will claim some sort of persecution to jump to the head of the line and some will just wait for darkness and hope no one is watching.

Future generations will venerate those who actually showed resolve and character in protecting their nations and cultures

 

[NALs]

I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't already doing something. Increased patrols, readiness, etc. The writings on the wall.

A wall seems like a huge undertaking here, but who knows. It could happen. Electronic surveillance, foot patrols, dogs, and of course Navy patrols. Piece o' cake.

I remember many years ago I extrapolated the cost per kilometer of the fence/wall built by Israel on its border with Palestine (West Bank, Gaza) and applied it to the DR border.

I did this under the assumption that the per kilometer cost for a well built wall along the border with Haiti would be less than whatever Israel spent on its own wall. The underlying assumption is that much of the materials needed to build the wall can be produced within the DR and labor costs are unquestionably lower in the DR than in Israel. I completely ignored any additions to the cost due to the much more rugged nature of the terrain along much of the border with Haiti, which is not the case in Israel/Palestine.

Anyway, I remember that the final number (cost per kilometer of Israel's wall multiplied by the length of the border with Haiti) was less than the cost of the first line of the Santo Domingo Metro. If I remember correctly, the first line of the metro cost around US$800 million back in 2008 (I think that's when the metro was inaugurated.)

If the DR was able to build not just one line but also part of a second line of the metro for much more money than what building an Israeli type wall along the border would cost, then it's very clear that the only thing standing in the way of building the wall is lack of willingness or fear of criticisms.

 

[Naked_Snake]

If the DR was able to build not just one line but also part of a second line of the metro for much more money than what building an Israeli type wall along the border would cost, then it's very clear that the only thing standing in the way of building the wall is lack of willingness or fear of criticisms.

Lack of balls and a supernatural fear of losing their precious US visas on the part of these junk politicos. Plus, there is the matter of all those drug cases and the extradition card always at hand on every dealing of the USDOS with the scum here.