How to educate and bring about a change in the Dominican youth for the furture

Criss Colon

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"ONE" of your problems "Joe" is that you don't(Never Have!) lived here in the DR,

Yet you propose to know every detail about "Dominican Life"! The dominican education system is an "Oximoron",and you are just a "Moron"! The average dominican highschool student is functionally illiterate,and can't make change for a 100 peso note!Leave your comparisons with the US out of this! Because,just like in the medical care system,there is NO comparison!CC
 
Criss Colon said:
Yet you propose to know every detail about "Dominican Life"! The dominican education system is an "Oximoron",and you are just a "Moron"! The average dominican highschool student is functionally illiterate,and can't make change for a 100 peso note!Leave your comparisons with the US out of this! Because,just like in the medical care system,there is NO comparison!CC
Chris, I mean Fatslob
Actually I lived there for 6 months in 1983 with my Grandfather when he was writing his book, before I joined the Marines . Thats how I was made aware of a distant Dominican aunt. Fatso. :)Mr. Chris Doubleshin stick to your prostitutes and I'll stick to topics about the good people of DR.

Rick

had you thought of starting a community school. Were you surprised that the the Dept of Ed in DR turned an outsider away even if you meant well?
I wished they would have recieved you much better than that.
 
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Rick Snyder

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How to educate..............

Pichardo my orininal reply was meant to be addressed to you not Texas Bill, Sorry
Rick
 

Rick Snyder

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Sancochojoe

Yes I was very suprised that the Dept of Ed was not interested in something simple and CHEAP that would help them. With as many people as I have approached I would think that there would be one teacher, school director or education offical with at least a little interest in my idea. There is the possibility that they do not know how bad the problem is and the same goes true for the members of this board. In your daily travels ask a child that you see to recite the alphabet to you and also ask them how many letters the alphabet contains. I think you will be suprised at the answers you get. Have you a dictionary ask a person to look up a word in that dictionary for you. The other possibility for no interest is that they do not give a flying $%^$#*. It hurts me deeply to think that the higher officals might not care about the well being of their children.
No I have never thought about starting a community school but what I know of the government and the Dept of Ed I think it would be a lose, lose situation for me. Here in Seybo we have one public pre-school, 6 public schools and a number of private schools all under the control of the Dept of Ed and with a directive from them the reciting of the alphabet could be taught in all these schools at the same time. It would be a win, win situation for both them and the students and would not cost them anything. I have proposed this and said I would teach the students for free or teach the teacher as to how to use my method, also for free. Their response? ?We have been teaching this way for years and it works very well so there is no reason for change?.

Rick
 

Criss Colon

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"Sticks and Stones"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"Stop",No More"!

I guess one has to go to "Graduate School" to learn the meaning of,"Doubleshin"!cc
ps,I have seen your pictire! Can you say "Glass Houses"? :lick:
 

Texas Bill

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sancochojoe said:
Yes, the same place you learn how to spell "pictire"

hahahahahaha

Don't laugh too loudly, sancho! You are also guilty of making "TYPOS" in your postings! Look at the keyboard---the "i" and the "u" are adjacent to one another. Couldn't it be that instead of misspelling???

"Glass Houses", indeed!!!

Texas Bill
 

pati

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I don't claim to have solutions. I wasn't even aware that the problem was a bad as some of you have described. My husband was educated in the Dominican Republic (public & private schools) and I based my perception of the education system by him.He earned a high school diploma in DR and then at the recommandation of someone in the US he went on to get his GED to use for further schooling and to get a job. I am proud to say my husband passed the GED test the first time he took it and was in the top 5 in his class. I say this because I know people born and raised in the US who have taken the test multiple times and can not pass it.

If part of the problem is getting the community to support (or demand) change in the educational system then why not start with them. With all of the volunteer groups and church groups working with these same people why not engage them in order to get the word out on how important it is for their children and grandchildren to get an education.
 

Forbeca

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pati said:
If part of the problem is getting the community to support (or demand) change in the educational system then why not start with them.



Most of your educated dominicans send their kids out of the country to study. The ones that can't seem to do that have their kids in private schools and w/ private tutors. The rest of the population cannot focus on the importance of education and in my opinion, not savvy enough to demand a better educational system.
 

Texas Bill

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Perhaps we're taking the wrong tack in this situation. Maybe a better way would be to convince the local business and social leaders (not leaving out the church's influence, either) to approach the local school system leader to effect the changes necessary.

Many times, an expat's efforts are viewed with the attitude that he/she is trying to force upon them a system that would belittle their previous efforts. As expats who are offering a solution, we would be viewed as arrogant interlopers into something that didn't concern them.

By convincing the local authorities of our sincerity of effort and having them present the proposed solutions, a more positive view may be taken by the authorities.

I don't mean by that, that we should abrogate those efforts, but should try an approach other than the direct one.

We are, after all, dealing with a basic pride in a system we don't fully understand.


Texas Bill
 
Texas Bill said:
I don't mean by that, that we should abrogate those efforts, but should try an approach other than the direct one.

Texas Bill
I agree that a direct approach would not be recommended given the responses that were made to outsiders.

"How dare some tourist come in my country and try to tell us how to educate our children."

That is most likely the sense they are getting.

An indirect approach is a must.
 

Hillbilly

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The Dominican Educational System = an oxymoron for sure

Just like Military intelligence, or giant shrimp.

Anyway, Pichardo's post asks some valid questions. Most of the thread has made some important points (aside from Sancocho and CC's little "tiff" ).

As an educator for 44 years, allow me to say that yes, it does need an overhaul.

Just how to do it would be the work of a great team of educators and tons of money.

Curriculum overhaul at every level. Salaries would have to triple to allow for highly schooled individuals to even think of trying to find a life in education (public).

What would I do? D@mn, I hardly know where to start.

Money -> Curriculum-> facilities -> libraries -> extra curricular activities

Curriculum--Basically RRR. Pounded in. Most High School students are functionally illiterate, and that is a fact. "Most" can be read to mean 50 + 1 % or 65% or 80%....not all but most. This is so important at the Elementary level, but the elementary level gets the worst of the laziest, of the most lackadaisical and ill-prepared teachers. They should be the best teachers. Somebody asked of there were any Education Departments in the universities, and the answer is yes there are, but they are lacking in students and most are now reduced to Saturday Continuing Education classes. Let's be serious; who would go to school for four years at a cost of RD$40,000 a year (for the best schools) to take a job that pays, maybe RD$6000 for a morning or afternoon "session??" The young person can make that much working in a Sports Agency taking bets.

Facilities: The schools are pig sties, with little or no sense of pride or pertinence. They are holding tanks for failures until they are old enough not to have to go there. If anyone has seen the Centro Educacional de Bonao, run by Falconbridge, they can see what a great school is like. I will visit the New Horizons School near here and see how they compare. One of the very best schools in the country is La Altagracia in Los Prados. They have a waiting list of years. Iron discipline, by nuns, sound education and great results. Santa Ana in Santiago, also run by nuns is another example of a good school with successful products. Unfortunately, I cannot think of one public school in the same general category. The schools in Saman? used to be excellent, but they have fallen from grace...too many Dominican "natives", and not enough "Samanenses" (decendants of the freed slaves that came in 1824-5). Facilities also include school kitchens and lunch programs. Hungry children cannot learn. "Sh!t on a shingle" nourishes dispite its name. The same, as someone has already mentioned, for the health services.

Libraries: Have you ever seen a school library here? Make you cry. Nothing to read, and nothing to make you want to read. Santiago has two public libraries, Amantes de la Luz and Alianza Cibae?a, and they are glimmers in the dark, but highly utilized by those students with energy and curiosity.

Extra curricular activities: A major mistake in the thinking of the educational planners years ago. There are no organized activities between the schools; no sports, not even jump rope. No bands, no chess clubs, no nothing that might make a child proud of his or her school. There are some timid attempts at inter-scholastic sports in Santo Domingo but they are just the private schools and they are so limited that they mean little.


It all comes down to one thing: Revolutionary amounts of money. It is there, but it is being used for the wrong things, like the Armed Forces, like the inflated payrolls of government servents, like "social programs" that are only politically motivated. (Come solos or PPH, same sh*t, different outhouse).

Oh we could get together and take one school, someplace and equip it with all the geegaws and dohickys and thigamagigs required for a great elementary school. We could even find someone to pay a great salary to the teachers.
Then what? After we leave?

This will be a slow process, over decades and only if there is a political will to do it. It can't be done from outside. Of course, we could start an islamic fundamentalist coup d'etat and have the US come in here and take over to save us....a Dominican MacArther Plan and Marshall Plan all rolled up into one..

enough of this ..

HB
 

Texas Bill

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Hillbilly, I think you're right! We have pretty much hammered this subject to death and it has left a sour taste in my mouth.

I guess we tend to pick a subject (and there are plenty of them) and proceed to carry it to extremes without really offering affordable solutions to the problems of implementation.

I also guess we assume that the powers that be will listen to us since we come from a more affluent society and have met and conquered many of the problems ourselves. I'm guilty of that assumption and feel the impaact of becoming an a** as a result of some of my commentaries.

I vote we close the thread until such time as a more favorable atmosphere exists for the discovery and implimentation of solutions.

Texas Bill
 

Tom F.

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Ditto to everything hillbilly writes. First, the haves don't really give a ---- being they send their kids to private schools. That being the case, structural change is unlikely. If you personally want to make a difference, start by getting to know a community or a campo and their school(s). Figure out what you can do and help that school improve whatever aspect you find is up your alley. If your not a clown and speak some Spanish, you could probably make a real impact. If you find local community members involved in administration and teaching, the school seems to run better.

I find the Dominican students who come into the NYC public school system (high school) and went to colegios (private) do as well or better as any student who is at grade level in their native language. Within 2 or 3 years they are pretty much fluent in English and off to college some where. 25-33% probably fall into this category (not scientific).

Of the others, a good chuck (25% of the total) are atleast 2 years behind in grade and sometimes more. You find too many students who made it to 5th-8th grade in the DR and because of their age, they are immediately promoted to high school when they enter the NYC system. There are no real services provided to these students and almost all drop-out. I have had some of these kids' parents have their child sign there name for them on open school night. Many of just come out and told me they can't write. It reminds me of the camposinos who used to X the contract when we installed their solar system.

Money and dedicated people will be needed. When a Chavez (or yes may I say it, Fidel type toward education) type leader gets elected, we probably won't see any real movement in the right direction.

Tom F.
 

Narcosis

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The status of Public education in the Dominican Republic is deplorable!

The status of private education is flourishing. It has become a big business with literally hundreds of new schools opening over the last last few years.

Even the poor are sending their children to private schools and of course there are schools that cater to this segment.

We can look at this as a phenomenon where the "free market" powers take over when a basic necesity is not fulfilled by the state. In essence, you get what you pay for. This may be the same as in the USA where if you live in a high tax bracket area such as an upper-class town in California, public schools will be much better than a school in rural West Virginia.

If we look at the DR in actuality what we don't pay in taxes we pay for directly to the schools or in health-care through private insurance and private schools.

The great loser here is the middle-class, especially the lower end, that lower end that really struggles to pay for private school, but knows it is the only way to get anywhere. These are the true losers, as the rich can easily afford the best schools, and the poor really don't care, the parents would rather send the kids to work than study anyway.

I guess eventually when education becomes a priority for the goverment we will see these private schools fase back into a public system, but this will never happen until the rich and the poor start to pay taxes.

The middle class is the great loser at the end of the day in a country like ours, they are the ones that pay out of their noses to maintain or increase their place in the social ladder and make a brighter future for their kids.
 
Has home teaching material surfaced anywhere in DR. (i'm talking those who can home teach but cannot afford private schools) That seems to be a booming market in affluent countries who are fed up with their public schools. Has anyone thought of creating material with proper home teaching methods and techniques for Dominican.


I taught one year in a public highschool and what frustrated me was the method of teaching. Most public schools seem to focus on one way of teaching without addresses the fact that children have different learning styles and the approach has not changed in public schools. Home teaching could address these issues in Dominican Homes because the parent(s) could (hopefully) indentify their childs level of comprehension.

Don't give up Texas Bill. Even if you help one child, you can look at this as an achievement. You can always create a snowball effect.
 

Chris

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This thread made me think of my own family and growing up in Africa, where education was really hard to accomplish. So, I asked myself the question - What made my parents stress education for their children, while they had little formal education? And my grandparents had even less formal education. (We were quite far away from schools and even further from institutions of higher education).

I can only conclude that it was a joint effort by parents, and by the rural schools that we attended when we were young, and, the most important, by the community. The teachers were not always fully prepared for their jobs, but kids were important. Somehow, my parents made the effort to get us to good high schools, usually boarding schools, where we learnt from our peers and from better educated teachers, that education was important. Reading HB's post about schools not having activities or clubs or competing sports teams makes me sad. I remember the whole school community leaving on busses and driving for many hours for full weekends to compete against other schools. We got 'points' for our school, simply for participating. I remember my parents attending school activities, to support their local school. The rural communities were far from each other, and school and church became the activities around which most of the socializing was structured. So, when the parents could attend school functions and socialize, and the school became an important part of the functioning community, suddenly schooling became important. I think this can form the basis for education.

So, what about creating a situation where the school functions as a community center? Inter-School activities, competition, sport and community activities, could bring about a change where more parents consider school important. Parents and the community need to be proud of 'their school', the kids, their accomplishments and so on. This does not take more money than what a community can come up with, but it takes dedicated teachers, parents and community members.
 

Texas Bill

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sancochojoe said:
Has home teaching material surfaced anywhere in DR. (i'm talking those who can home teach but cannot afford private schools) That seems to be a booming market in affluent countries who are fed up with their public schools. Has anyone thought of creating material with proper home teaching methods and techniques for Dominican.


I taught one year in a public highschool and what frustrated me was the method of teaching. Most public schools seem to focus on one way of teaching without addresses the fact that children have different learning styles and the approach has not changed in public schools. Home teaching could address these issues in Dominican Homes because the parent(s) could (hopefully) indentify their childs level of comprehension.

Don't give up Texas Bill. Even if you help one child, you can look at this as an achievement. You can always create a snowball effect.


sancho;
Don't worry partner, Texans have the reputation of being amoung the most stubborn cusses in the universe and I'm no exception. In addition, to expand (out of thread) the road to Copey is FINALLY being repaired AGAIN.

If one keeps hammering at the waall, it will eventually fall down.

Texas Bill
 

daddy1

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sancochojoe said:
Texas,

I agree with some of your points, BUT.

You shouldn't expect any solution for something that is complicated as educating children. It may sound simple enough but it is very difficult. You should only expect commentary, opinions and suggestions on what is best, but actual solutions for implementing would be a overhall. Do you thing the US would have a Department of Education if there was an easy solution to educating children. Heck no, so why would it be that easy for The Dominican Republic to do the same.

I believe 100% that educating starts in the home, but what if the home is uneducated. What if mama and grandma cannot read and write. What then. You have no choice but to look for outside help such as the public school, church support and government funding. Homes like that look for that help. People in general and children in specific are not cut from the same mold which may be hard for you to believe but lets face it, educating everyone's child is very difficult and each family have unique situations to deal with in the home. i.e. level of education, financial situations, health, safety, food etc.

If we could start with a plan, you would first have to look at:

1. what plans does the Dominican Republic have, currently
2. How are they implenting the plan
3. Is it actually being implemented
4. Can it work or is it working
4. What amendments need to be made
5. How is it being funded i.e. taxes, nonprofit, tourism revenue, luxary taxes.

Thats a heavy burden on a poor country when the tax base cannot fund education. The US is lucky to collect Real Estate tax to pay for education, but I doubt DR uses that method and if they do, you have an answer of why schools are not funded very well.
Hey Bill this thread is very important to me because I have American educated children living in the island now and me and my wife figured that most of the english speaking schools were to expensive and they teached basic american public school style education nothing else, or to say it directly nothing special, so we decided to home school, but this aside I have a more radical appoach to education in the D.R.
First and foremost the country as we know it has or had the funds to build better schools especially all those pan-am game facilities that they built, where and how those funds came about is a mystery. I lived in Orlando Florida one of the best organized community oriented cities in all the U.S. I have been a youth Counselor here for eight years and let me tell you community centers like Y.M.C.A. And Boys and Girls clubs are a must in any city foreign and domestic they help parents with child care, activities,organized sports, showers, computer programs etc - the city of Orlando has city runned community centers all over town and it is creating so much positive influences on children that parents are demanding more of them to be built they offer an escape from a poor home, abuse, and poor role models that these Dominican kids are growing up with, when you shape society and correct the problems in a child's mind then they can focus on education, D.R. has failed in educating there children this has to change of course and in my opinion the goverment must implement athletics into the school systems building gymnasiums, baseball fields etc, now let me tell you why! :)
I believe, and( just reason with me for a second.) that english should be taught as a first language in all of D.R. public schools, the goverment must realize that the youth that grow into adult's must see that the students in there country that excell in society are the one's who speak fluent english, No!..... english cources won't cut it, because it's optional and the kids don't take it seriously! Guys trust me and listen to my words carefully the D.R. children would be more successful in the world today if they all knew english fluently, I don't care about other nation's, I just feel that this would be beneficial to these children, but why you ask? good question! if a dominican youth, hymm... say from elementary to high school had english throughout all his life until graduation day and or was an outstanding baseball player but was not entered into a draft he would have to go back into his poverty stricken neigborhood with nothing to do and nowhere to work. but!!! if an American university came along say U of Miami and said we will pay full tuition for you to come to U.M. he is on a one way flight to success! again why? because this kid knew fluent english and he had something to offer a multi-million dollar institution, and let's not forget a U of Miami degree when he finishes, yes D.R. may lose some quality citizens but some will come back to be professors, teachers, lawmen others will get high paying jobs in the free zone from American and European companies seeking a tax break, non the less when a Dominican gets that opportunity to leave the island he or she will stand at the same level as everyone else and not sweeping floors or some other crappy job a American public school educated student doesn't want, that's productive, these kids will be the countries future politicians - I don't want to offend anyone but if I was the countries president I would have surrendered my countries education to an American, European or Canadian country, begging them for there intervention sending and funding those who would agree to be educated in the U.S. or elswhere to return and educate D.R. children with full living and travil expences reduced for those qualified professors who want to teach in the island if this can be accomplished the D.R.'s image would change drastically, the children would benefit from it parent's would have to exept it, and families would be saved, just think about the percentage of families that would survive the ghetto if this would happen, people let's face it! you have to keep up with the flow of the more civilized and productive nation's, education will make better Men and Women not money!! education in D.R. is optional it's like buying a car, if you don't have the money you won't be educated that's the future of the island and it has never changed, the island's problems won't changed, and Dominican's living in the U.S. will always say comments like I will never return and live in that un-educated, dumb infected, non-civilized society, well! it looks like the U.S. way of life made them realize that the people running the countries educational program are not looking at the countries best interest, look these talented kids don't stand a chance if something this radical is not implented, they will not be able to compete anywhere in the world, you got to be kidding me that a Dominican child cannot have high quality education for free with all the money being tossed around like salad in that small island I mean millions of dollars in loan from different banks in such, this is what puts the country to shame we have no intelligence in power today, because those who do not see that Dominican Republic schools are a business and not a priority are insane, one day someone will have to make this move, look being poor doesn't make you dumb! being from a farm doesn't make you dumb! but much of nothing is being done to fix this dumb problem from so called intelligent people in power, myself and others in the island are collecting funds to open up the first Community center in Santo Domingo we are also are forming the Dominican American Children Association in which will be posted in May so that all can join it is non-profit and we will do our best to improve and stimulate young minds, we will also lobby to the government and become a thorn in there *** to see that more emphasis are put on improving our image as intelligent and productive citizens not just good labor workers who make the rich richer and the poor deported!! any interested e-mail me @ raamargos@earthlink.net sorry bill if I got off the subject just a wee bit but this is a real important subject that finally should be seriously addressed. see....ya.
 
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daddy1 said:
I believe, and( just reason with me for a second.) that english should be taught as a first language in all of D.R. public schools, the goverment must realize that the youth that grow into adult's must see that the students in there country that excell in society are the one's who speak fluent english, No!..... I don't want to offend anyone but if I was the countries president I would have surrendered my countries education to an American, European or Canadian country, begging them for there intervention sending and funding those who would agree to be educated in the U.S. or elswhere to return and educate D.R. children with full living and travil expences reduced for those qualified professors who want to teach in the island if this can be accomplished the D.R.'s image would change drastically, the children would benefit from it parent's would have to exept it, and families would be saved, just think about the percentage of families that would survive the ghetto if this would happen, people let's face it! you have to keep up with the flow of the more civilized and productive nation's, education will make better Men and Women not money!! education in D.R. is optional it's like buying a car, if you don't have the money you won't be educated that's the future of the island and it has never changed, the island's problems won't changed, and Dominican's living in the U.S. will always say comments like I will never return and live in that un-educated, dumb infected, non-civilized society, well! it looks like the U.S. way of life made them realize that the people running the countries educational program are not looking at the countries best interest, look these talented kids don't stand a chance if something this radical is not implented, they will not be able to compete anywhere in the world, you got to be kidding me that a Dominican child cannot have high quality education for free with all the money being tossed around like salad in that small island I mean millions of dollars in loan from different banks in such, this is what puts the country to shame we have no intelligence in power today, because those who do not see that Dominican Republic schools are a business and not a priority are insane,...........

I see your points but your view can only be viewed as one thing and one thing only and that is you have a "Emperialistic View". Or let me get science fiction. You are a Borg and you want to Assimilate them. (star trek, for those who don't know)

Your making the same suggestions they said during early colonialsim. You want to civilize the "savages" I take it.

1. First your want to change their culture by stripping them of their language "all for the better good" or in specific. I would say this, walk up and down Broadway and side streets off Broadway between 150th - 170th uptown in Washington Heights in NYC where there are 1 million dominican strong and tell me if your theory holds water with the many of English speaking Dominicans up their.

2. You said Dominicans in the states make the claim " they would never return un-educated, dumb infected, non-civilized society". Now many have left and entered into a "English speaking, Drug infested, cheap labor, in debt, bad credit, project style apartments in NYC.
"Out of the pot and into the skillet"

3. Since when does speaking English versus spanish, Chinese or whatever makes you more civilized or educated. Thats a good one. I'll try using that one in debate and see how far it gets me.

I could go on BUT

Its not the ability to speak english or what ever language its the opportunity. Thats an insult to all the successful, educated individuals who do speak spanish as their primary language. They don't need to change their cultural identity to benefit American or other English speaking nations interest to be successful.

I do agree that English should be taught in the schools in DR but not as their primary language. We can barely get Americans to pick up spanish yet you want Spanish speakers to primarily speak english and in their own country.
 
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