Illegal Dominican Lottery in NJ

[Mr. Lu]

?

The difference lies in who gets to keep the wealth generated by gambling.

But don't you think that at the end of the day, with the way its set up, the money ends up in our, the public's hands? Meaning you tax the lottery and the people i.e through public works projects, benefit by having roads and schools built by taxed money on a vice. So in the end we benefit from the money, so it would behoove us to support legal gambling avenues and not resort to the defense of back door gambling operations that render no substantial gains to society and most often continually add to the degradation of society.

The response isn't to you per se Berzin, more just a general assessment, though I quoted you as a basis for my response.

 

[Mr. Lu]

Excuse me?

jajajaja, ok.

The only low blow here is what Mr. Lu's sister was doing when the cops busted that bodega in Washington Heights.

I thought we could hold the debate to a higher degree? Guess not. I don't deal with keyboard warriors, or people who run their mouths online and wouldn't have the guts to say it in person or better yet the self-respect and decorum to keep such offensive commentary to themselves. You've shown your true colors sir, and I can only hope you don't act the same way in public, as you have in this forum.

I wish I, we, could continue the discourse as one on this forum is accustomed to, but you have proved that not to be the case.

 

[Skippy1]

never quite understood the idea that legal gambling is good for everyone.its not good for the people who loose their money each week. its a tax on the poor as the rich do not generally play the lottery or slot machines.
The rich who can afford to loose the money in the casinos would be better persuaded to give the money to the poor or a charity. Why give the money you expect to loose to someone else who is already rich makes no sense to me.

Skippy1

 

[Mr. Lu]

Rich and poor...

never quite understood the idea that legal gambling is good for everyone.its not good for the people who loose their money each week. its a tax on the poor as the rich do not generally play the lottery or slot machines.
The rich who can afford to loose the money in the casinos would be better persuaded to give the money to the poor or a charity. Why give the money you expect to loose to someone else who is already rich makes no sense to me.

Skippy1

Both the rich and the poor gamble. Micheal Jordan, Alex Rodriguez and Charles Barkley are rich and have lost millions in a night. Vices aren't determined on how much money you make. And I would venture to say that the rich play because they can i.e they can either lose the money because they have an abundance or as pure entertainment (rich man's complex) while the poor play as a way to get rich, sort of desperation.

This whole tax on the poor? Please elaborate because at the moment I am at a loss.

And yeah gambling is weird because through taxes we benefit from the misery of others, but if they will gamble, let's tax it and provide a structure for it.

 

[Skippy1]

tax on the poor

Both the rich and the poor gamble. Micheal Jordan, Alex Rodriguez and Charles Barkley are rich and have lost millions in a night. Vices aren't determined on how much money you make. And I would venture to say that the rich play because they can i.e they can either lose the money because they have an abundance or as pure entertainment (rich man's complex) while the poor play as a way to get rich, sort of desperation.

This whole tax on the poor? Please elaborate because at the moment I am at a loss.

And yeah gambling is weird because through taxes we benefit from the misery of others, but if they will gamble, let's tax it and provide a structure for it.

Ok the rich people do not generally play the lottery. If you stand outside any lotto or banco you will not see lines of yipetas waiting to buy a ticket.
It is the all too often forlorne hope that they will be able to win a better life that makes them play. Richar people do not want that in the same way. The tax on the tickets is taken by the government on top of the tax they take on the earnings so they are taxed twice.....I am not sure if the winnings are taxed too in the States.
So that is why I say that the lottery is another stealth tax on the poor who can least afford it.
Skippy1

 

[Richard Alberto]

I thought we could hold the debate to a higher degree? Guess not. I don't deal with keyboard warriors, or people who run their mouths online and wouldn't have the guts to say it in person or better yet the self-respect and decorum to keep such offensive commentary to themselves. You've shown your true colors sir, and I can only hope you don't act the same way in public, as you have in this forum.

I wish I, we, could continue the discourse as one on this forum is accustomed to, but you have proved that not to be the case.

That was truly my intention until you felt funny enough to indicate that perhaps my cousin was arrested. This is the first time I've had to resort to his level of rebuttal but there would always be a first and hopefully last.

 

[Mr. Lu]

It goes both ways

Ok the rich people do not generally play the lottery. If you stand outside any lotto or banco you will not see lines of yipetas waiting to buy a ticket.
It is the all too often forlorne hope that they will be able to win a better life that makes them play. Richar people do not want that in the same way. The tax on the tickets is taken by the government on top of the tax they take on the earnings so they are taxed twice.....I am not sure if the winnings are taxed too in the States.
So that is why I say that the lottery is another stealth tax on the poor who can least afford it.
Skippy1

Rich people play the loto too. It's not just a poor man's vice. Maybe not here, or you might not see them play, but gambling, in all forms, is a vice and the rich aren't immune to it.

As for stealth taxes on the poor, it's not a stealth tax on anyone. No matter who wins the taxes are applied. The scenario doesn't change if the winner is in a different tax bracket. They don't have tax rules stating that poor people will pay different from rich people. The taxes are indiscriminate, at least on lottery and gambling winnings. The defense, albeit a weak one, is that poor people shouldn't be taxed on this, or that when they do things, because they are poor, need a different set of rules or dispensations?

 

[Skippy1]

let me explain further

Rich people play the loto too. It's not just a poor man's vice. Maybe not here, or you might not see them play, but gambling, in all forms, is a vice and the rich aren't immune to it.

As for stealth taxes on the poor, it's not a stealth tax on anyone. No matter who wins the taxes are applied. The scenario doesn't change if the winner is in a different tax bracket. They don't have tax rules stating that poor people will pay different from rich people. The taxes are indiscriminate, at least on lottery and gambling winnings. The defense, albeit a weak one, is that poor people shouldn't be taxed on this, or that when they do things, because they are poor, need a different set of rules or dispensations?

Yes rich people gamble and yes its a vice that has no eco barrier.
Now we agree on that, the effect of lotteries and the analysis of who plays the games is well documented around the world. In general the people who play the lotto in what ever country you care to choose are the poor. The ticket prices are diliberately set to be accessible for them. Not many poor people could afford to play Blackjack or 5 card stud poker at a casino where the minimum stake is 10 dollars a time. I hope we are agreed on that?
Almost all countries that have a lottery are licensed by the government who set the rules and take the taxes unless you play the illegal one here in DR or USA.
Almost all sensible people would tell you that gambling is a bad thing for poor people, yes I know they would find many ways to do it without a lottery such as cock fights and other things. However by legalising it so that the government can regulate and tax they are firstly condoning it and secondly making money from it.
I refer to all the other things I said about tax and how people are taxed twice possibly three times on this activity.
While you will get some people with money playing it really is not the rich perhaps you will have to define Rich? I do not think Bill Gates is even remotely interested in the banco lotto.
So possibly no billionares or millionares in US Dollar terms.
Not sure you would find Miguel Vargas or Leonel Fernades playing the Piantinis and Hidalgos would not waste their money on the lottery.....so the people left in comparison the poor.
I am not rich in world terms but I would not play either.
So in short the demografics of the users and players are in the vast majority the poor who get to pay far higher tax levy on their income as a result. Small amounts from millions of people add up to quite an interesting revenue stream for any government.
Hope that explains my position clearly.

Skippy1

 

[cuas]

My mother used to play pale and illegal lotto in DR. I think it has not changed.
You go to a bodega, you play the numbers. There is cut-off time where the bodeguero pass the list to the master. If you have enough customers for the day meaning you collected enough money to back you up if somebody wins you can decide to take a chance and not to pass the list. If nobody wins the money is yours, if somebody wins you pay and the rest is yours but if you pass the list and somebody wins, the bodeguero and the master will calculate the difference,
If the bodeguero collected more than what he has to pay the winner deducted his commision than he has owes the master.
If the bodeguero collected less than he has to pay to the winner(s) than the master owes the bodeguero.
I know a lot of bodegueros must be shaken because all of their information is in the master cellphone, computer or how they pass the list to the master.

When I was 12/13 I was making some pocket money. My stepfather was working for an American company. They had a supermarket for their employees. He was buying bottles of cider for me at a good price. I made a list from 1 to 100 and there I went selling numbers to the neighbors. The day that I did not collect the cost of the cider I was running back to all the neighbors to give them their money back.

 

[Mr. Lu]

Fair enough...

Hope that explains my position clearly.

Skippy1

Fair enough...

 

[Skippy1]

Odds

Fair enough...

Just to add a further point about the differences between poor and rich gambling.

The odds and I can only quote the UK lottery are 14 million to 1 that is 14 million possible number combinations and only one winning ticket for the jackpot the odds get better for the smaller prizes but the best break even point is around 50 to 1. Maybe someone will have the actual figure somewhere.

Now if you gamble on the roulette table the jackpot is 36 to 1 some tables have a 0 and even a 00 to make the odds more in favour of the house so 38 to 1. These odds are more favourable so why dont more poor people play......the answer is accessability. You would not find many motoconcho drivers in a casino as they would be priced out or excluded by some dress code (whatever the door policy might be)

In general the more affluent and the better educated have access to the games with better odds of winning making the risks lower. All pay taxes but what is left after the deduction is still worth having, not so apparent for the poor. All governments try to exploit any revenue stream they can and a lottery is an easy target. When people send money from the USA to family here the bank and the government take a heffty slice of every dollar in exchange and tax rates another way of taxing the poor without them knowing.

Skippy1

 

[Mindstamina]

What is ridiculous is your defense for this. No matter if it is a small operation or a large one, it is ILLEGAL. Therefore must be stopped. This is like defending Quirino or Florian and making those fools out to be martyrs. There is a reason lotteries are regulated, because of its large tax revenues that end up helping the surrounding communities. I mean someone wins US$200 million for example the tax payout is in the millions. People can have their vice but the end result is beneficial for the state and the winner.

I think smoking marijuana is a harmless, as is drinking alcohol on Sundays or street racing but it is illegal and until the laws change people have to man up. US$400,000, 6 vehicles and some computers? How do we not know that these people weren't involved in illegal drug rackets and racketeering and money laundering?

I will tell you from personal experience that these small numbers groups dabble in much more than just the lottery, using the bodegas as a front. Running numbers is an easy way to clean out all your money. You just take you dirty money and run it through the bodega, or better yet lend the money out (loan sharking out) and get the money back third party style. Its the same with corner bookies who want to clean any dirty money. Plus racketeering festers in these places and drugs is the ultimate component. And to some degree, though I haven't seen this, prostitution can be involved.

When I lived in Boston I knew of a few bodegas that had back doors to them, which led to small cramped rooms. Some smaller than others, but thats where all the action happened. You think "Papi" behind the counter is just selling you the "loteria?" Riiiiight! Papi knows about who's moving what and where and don;t be surprised that the FEDS start connecting the dots and find more than 400,000 in cash. And just by the looks of it, sounds like a real cheesy operation. I figure numbers wise they would have had close to a million in cash.

The problem with these operations is that they deal in cash only and it is impossible for the authorities to trace their activities. I mean 400,000 in cash? Thats the reason you can't enter the country without declaring more than US$10,000 in cash. But I would guess you'd defend that as being a silly rule also.

Come one man please just stop. Quit acting like a damn boyscout. Everyone breaks the law some way or another. What amuses me is that you know so much about these illegal operations but yet you are acting like you are Mr. Rogers.

 

[Mindstamina]

I assume they were booking bets on the Lottery numbers drawn in the Dominican Lottery in the DR and paying off on these numbers. Just an assumption.

Duh...........Lol.