Leonel Learns Lessons from Bush

[johne]

If you mean me..

My reference to the Bush administration points towards LF's obsession with making the DR sort of a USA clone. If I offended anyone's sensibilities, I apologize, but I stand by my comments.

Brush it off as liberal propaganda if it makes you believe it doesn't exist.

PS: I DO have a say in it because although I live in NYC, I'm a Dominican national and exercised my right to vote in the Dominican elections...how'bout you?

and I'm not quite sure you do...I think it's great that you have a vote in the DR. I mean that absolutely sincerly. There are far too many experts on this forum, with a whole of opinions, that can't do a thing about making a change in the DR because...they have no vote, so say, no nada.

So, I guess when LF wins (today is it?) he might need yet another trip back to NYC to check out our tren system a little more.

 

[johne]

And post #2...:cheeky:

He joined now so that he's ready to do battle once the battle lines are drawn. And, only God knows who they want to put in the line of fire. Maybe they will decide in the next month or two????

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Don't worry, you and the majority of my fellow Americans are grossly uneducated about the Katrina disaster - mostly due in part to the liberal press and other rabble rousers. If you want to take this comment in a negative way that is your prerogative.

However, I stand by my original statement about the Katrina disaster. I have designed many public roads, drainage systems, ponds in the US and am qualified to make the observation. 99.9% of the people in the US probably don't know that roads and drainage systems aren't designed to handle EVERY possible storm event that can come along. In fact, the typical design storms in many areas are 50 year events, although in coastal areas, 100 year event designs are used. Not only that, but only a limited amount of the infrastructure is designed for the 100 year event, such as ponds. Many times the pipes connecting the drainage system are designed for a smaller event with the assumption that if the design storm is exceeded, the water will somehow make it to the pond/retention areas. This is done for cost, pure and simple. Taxes would have to increase considerably to make every public drainage system handle the 100 year event, therefore it will never happen.

Furthermore, in addition to designing for the 100 year storm event rainfall, on coastal areas storm surge has to be accounted for. This is a hit and miss proposition at best, trying to determine the peak stage and what not. The bottom line is that the Hurricane Katrina was very close to the limit of the design of the drainage infrastructure, and is typically the case with 99% of the drainage infrastructure systems in place in even in the US, they cannot function at full capacity because of a variety of reasons, mostly due to trash and debris lodged in the drainage infrastructure, or siltation of the pond areas which minimizes the effectiveness of the ponds - storage.

New Orleans also is an atypical case where the city was developed long before flood analysis and drainage systems were available, and has had to have retrofitted a drainage sytem.

Taken altogether, the combination of a few factors, the almost design storm(H Katrina), the drainage system operating at less than 100% capacity(the norm) and the New Orleans being located below see level(very little room for erro), and we had a disaster in the making.

To put things in perspective, Hurricane Katrina was a slightly more powerful Storm than Cyclone Nargis in Mynamar with a somewhat higher storm surge, but more actual rain fell in the Cyclone. A total of some 2500 dead and missing were caused by hurrican Katrina, whereas more than likely 130,000 plus will be the number of casulties in Myanmar. For those who want to riducule the US gov't for the Katrina disaster, I think this is quite telling. BTW, GW has nothing to do with the US Army Corp of Engineers, yet somehow he gets the blame anyway.

Primo!!!!! talk about not DR related.......btw the above has not one iota to do with the (un)response to the catastrophe.

 

[MaCabrera]

Hey, Cabrera, you can't deal with these super-sensitive US right-wingers:

They're still upset at the New Deal programs from the FDR era, then add to that "An Inconvenient Truth," then the fact that over 95% of US law professors disagreed with Scalia and co. on selecting Li'l Bush in 2000. And it goes on and on. They're fuming at Pat Tillman's parents for questioning the "official" Army story; demonized Cindy Sheehan for losing her son in Iraq, and they hate "the temperature at which freedom burns."

And they also believe the line that an intact passport belonging to the alledged lead hijacker was found four blocks down the street from WTC. INTACT. (As the SNL church lady used to exclaim, "How conveeeenient!")

Now they are expert in DR politics. Go figure.

I know, they're just funny that way. I can see'em foaming at the mouth with this...lol.

If it was up to them, there'd still be slavery and women wouldn't have the right to vote...

 

[Tarheel]

Comparison

Anyone who compares Leonel to Bush does a grave disservice to Leonel. A monkey could do a better job than Bush has and I'm not talking about an intelligent monkey; just an everyday average monkey.

Nice try Chip to defend Bush on Katrina. After all, he did cut his month long vacation by two days because of Katrina. Yeah, give him a break.

 

[SKY]

Chip,

Could you explain how people actually died waiting for help in the Superdome?
Was that to do with the drainage, or lack of a timely response by the Government?

Hurricane Katrina pictures New Orleans superdome victims

Speaking of Katrina, I am still waiting for an answer to this one. I suspect it might take awhile for a legitimate response.

 

[Chip]

Chip,

Could you explain how people actually died waiting for help in the Superdome?
Was that to do with the drainage, or lack of a timely response by the Government?

Hurricane Katrina pictures New Orleans superdome victims

Explain to me first why it was Bush's fault. In reality, the combination of the strength of the storm and the severe flooding made it difficult for people to be reached. The goverment could have done a better job, but it was no conspiracy and GW bears no fault.

Funny too, is that my parents house was virtually destroyed by Hurricane Hugo in 89' and had to move away for a year while the house was being repaired - what did they get from the US government in terms of compensation, housing food, whatever - a big fat zero! I think I will see my country bankrupt itself before I die, because anymore any mistake or shortsightedness , etc by our elected officials is cause for legal action. My country is being converted into a "me" first generation. The "Ask what not your country can do for you.." apparently is a long dead ideal. Que lamento.

 

[cobraboy]

Explain to me first why it was Bush's fault. In reality, the combination of the strength of the storm and the severe flooding made it difficult for people to be reached. The goverment could have done a better job, but it was no conspiracy and GW bears no fault.

Funny too, is that my parents house was virtually destroyed by Hurricane Hugo in 89' and had to move away for a year while the house was being repaired - what did they get from the US government in terms of compensation, housing food, whatever - a big fat zero! I think I will see my country bankrupt itself before I die, because anymore any mistake or shortsightedness , etc by our elected officials is cause for legal action. My country is being converted into a "me" first generation. The "Ask what not your country can do for you.." apparently is a long dead ideal. Que lamento.

Word......

 

[cobraboy]

(I thought non-DR threads got locked...)

 

[SKY]

Hurricane Katrina pictures New Orleans superdome victims

This was a disgrace, pure and simple. Someone has to step up and take some responsibility or the next time will be the same.

Look at the link and tell me how great your Government is when poor people are involved. If this happened in Texas the response would be a little different I believe.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

For some folks, anything else that is not DR related is fair game....but if any mention of GWB, watch out its definitely NOT DR related!!!! hahaha

 

[cobraboy]

Hurricane Katrina pictures New Orleans superdome victims

This was a disgrace, pure and simple. Someone has to step up and take some responsibility or the next time will be the same.

Look at the link and tell me how great your Government is when poor people are involved. If this happened in Texas the response would be a little different I believe.

What about Nagin and Blanco? Aren't they truly the "first responders"?

 

[cobraboy]

For some folks, anything else that is not DR related is fair game....but if any mention of GWB, watch out its definitely NOT DR related!!!! hahaha

Perhaps ~some~ chose to abide by the rules and steer clear of non-DR related topics. Old dogs/new tricks and all that.

 

[Berzin]

botched storm responses - The Katrina disaster is 500% different from the Tavares dam disaster, the people died in Cibao because the numbnut engineers can't add 1 plus 1 - read the papers. The Katrina disaster occurred because the storm was greater than the design capacity of the infrastructure created to handle it. This was an immense and powerful storm and the only reason that the US government gets blamed is because that is what anybody does anymore. For all the uneducated who think the US did a bad job I ask them to look at the recent Cyclone in Myanmar where more than 100,000 people have estimated to have died -that is what happens when you have no preparation. By the way I am a professional engineer specializing in drainage and I don't say this stuff lightly.

Chip, you've always seemed like a reasonable enough person until this. You may be an engineer but you are NOT a historian. Do your research on how the Army Corps of Engineers built the levees in New Orleans.

Compare the structural incompetence with the system in Holland built to keep out the North Sea, where so much of the country lies below sea level. After the 1953 storm did so much damage, the government(keep that word in mind) vowed to never let this happen again.

So they built a series of dikes and levees that are considered "overbuilt", as their system is capable of handling the most severe storms nature can throw at it. A modern, functioning system that was built to protect its' citizens from storm and flood damage.

This was not the case with the levees built in New Orleans. They were never built to withstand the forces that compromised its' structural integrity, and they were built so purposely and willingly, knowing that a certain category of storm could and would do major damage. This was even after a few storms had already made an example of such a flawed system.

When someone as seemingly bright as you gets something like this so wrong its' not your judgment or your intelligence that I question, its' your politics.

Remember Chip, Its' government "Of the People, BY the People, FOR the People" and not "of the republicans, by the corporations and for the richest 10%".

A country that despises its' poor like the DR must be a right-wingers' dream come true.

 

[Chip]

This was not the case with the levees built in New Orleans. They were never builtto withstand the forces that compromised its' structural integrity, and they were built so purposely and willingly, knowing that a certain category of storm could and would do major damage. This was even after a few storms had already made an example of such a flawed system.

With all due respect Berzin, I doubt you know what you are talking about. first of all, while the systems in Holland are quite impressive, I doubt they were built to deal with a Hurricane.

Second, I may be no historian, but have actually worked with the US Army Corp of Engineers on more than one occasion. Second, my father worked for the US Federal Government as an engineer for more than 35 years, so I was raised in an engineering "family".

Furthermore, every professional engineer in the US is not only accountable by private organizations(such as the ASCE), by State as well, not to mention that plans are thoroughly reviewed by other engineers.

The comments in bold actually are correct, however, it appears you either did not read or understand my early somewhat length post. Let me restate it so that all can understand.

THE MAJORITY OF THE DRAINAGE SYSTEMS IN THE US ARE DESIGNED TO WITHSTAND A MAXIMUM STORM EVENT, AND WILL FAIL IF THE STORM EVENT IS EXCEEDED.

(In many areas, the 50 year event is used, on coastal areas and near rivers, the 100 year event is used.)

This fact, combined with the poor maintenance of the system caused the drainage system to fail. The amount of rainfall was very close to the 100 yr even design(12") as well.

My issue isn't that no one isn't to blame, BUT THAT GW BUSH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

In my 15+ years and NUMEROUS countless drainage designs, the Federal Government(apart from FEMA), and much less GW have NEVER reviewed or approved my plans!

In the case of the Katrina Disaster, the Corp of Engineer's, City of New Orleans and State of Louisiana all bear the direct blame for the failure of the Drainage system, as they all have departments that were responsible for drainage systems. FEMA is responsible in large part to the strom distaster response. GW has nothing to do with managing FEMA. Also, GW declared a State of emergency two days before Katrina made landfall, when they were't even sure of the path of the hurricane:

Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana

To continue, it is utterly ridiculous and shamefull to constantly perpetuate that the Katrina disaster was due to racial or lack of care of the poor or other reasons. As far as the racial reasons, this is a slap in the face to all of the numerous black people who are engineers or professionals otherwise involved. As far as the lack of care for the poor, again a disgraceful conspiracy theory, as if the professionals involved care who has money and who doesn't.

In conclusion, the main causes of the Katrina disaster were the less than perfectly maintained drainage systems couple with the massive size of the storm and FEMA's failure to adequately help people in need. Human failure, nothing less nothing more.