Metro defenders - answer these questions please

[gary short]

The abandoned tunnels should be a great place to start a mushroom farm!

What kind of mushrooms..............mannnn.

 

[Rick Snyder]

I think the article I mentioned in earlier posts and linked, but the link didn't work, have a lot of bearing on the possible acceptance of the metro here in the DR. There where no responses to this article so I was of the assumption that nobody read this article.

I have reworked the link and I think that if you cut and paste the below listed section in your address bar and hit go then the article will appear;

http
://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/national/19train.html?ex=1290056400&en=0a9fb14e7b0fd958
&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

This cut and paste must be done in three steps, cutting and pasting each line.

This is an article of a Puertorican gentleman concerning the Puerto Rico subway system and I think it has a lot of bearing on what the expected outcome might be on a subway built here in the DR. I base this on the similarity of people, culture and location of PR and the DR.

Rick

 

[qgrande]

Interesting informative and balanced article Rick, with a couple of interesting points. What I take from it is that a metro system first of all needs to be a network of lines or well connected to other modes of public transport, not a single line, to be successful. Also that people will call for incentives like keeping ticket fares lower if the metro is no success, and that it may simply take some time for people to adapt to a new mode of transport. Two other interesting poitns mentioned are that a metro can be a source of pride and a symbol of progress even for those that do not use it, and that it is not just a matter of connecting important and/or populous distrcits, but also an instrument for urban planning/zoning where people and business will organise their lives and office location around public transport nodes. All in all I did not think the article reflected a completely negative or peesimistic view on the metro.

 

[macocael]

Thanks NALs for your post. I appreciate the time and effort you put into providing all the info and a well organized argument, which is more than some of the naysayers have done. I tip my hat.

I also remain skeptical, but am maintaining an open mind. As I said in a previous post, I find some of your points convincing, and I agree that if the Metro route can provide a much faster trip at a similar ticket price, well then the ridership patterns might just change and the govt might win against the unions without ever having to tackle them head on, as the routes would simply wither and die. I wonder what the outcome will be. While I think they will be up against many problems, chiefly the need for a secure electric supply, I am curious to see the how it all pans out. If the system, like all the others mentioned here, needs to be heavily subsidized, but does in fact manage to move lots of people quickly, then we would be no worse off than these other places. At least the metro would provide some benefit. Whether we can afford to subsidize this thing is another question, though.

I have wrestled with this back and forth, because I do feel that the city just has to come to grips with a solution to the surface traffic. I think a person could adequately characterize the current transit system as chaotic, though I dont myself find it so bad. I travel in conchos regularly, and I think it is cheaper and sometimes faster than using your own car, and I enjoy the company, but I wouldnt expect others to agree with me. Still, I dont find the guaguas and conchos too confusing; the system is a kind of controlled chaos. However, the numbers of vehicles is really the problem. The surface traffic, largely due to the numbers of cars with unregulated emissions, is wreaking havoc. The only reason we are not choking to death is that the city is located on the shore and the sea breezes carry off the smog. We are lucky not to be located in a bowl, like Mexico City. In addition to improved public transit, I would like to see stricter enforcement of emissions, as well as a change in the drivers' consciousness, whereby they would opt for smaller more fuel efficient and eco-friendly car models and drop this insane fetish of yipetas.

 

[Don Juan]

Good point macocael.That's one small but important benefit.

One of the main turn-offs for me in SD is the great number of marginally functioning, smoke spewing old heaps that still ply the capital's byways.
If the metro can compete and put some of them out of business, it will obviously do us all a lot of good. As Nals noted, downtown will become more attractive to tourist and locals alike as a more desirable destination thereby stimulating commerce. It may sound heartless as many of these conchos owners may not have an alternative to feeding their family (maybe they can bargain with Leonel and get jobs running the metro). But that's progress for you, some people lose in the process.
Yes, I'm for the construction of this unplanned, very expensive and apparently asinine gamble. Because if it does work, according to some people's wish, me included, it'll pay-off huge. All we can do now is wait and see. Leonel wanted it built, and when it does get finished, it's doubtful he'll just let it sit idly. This man's committed to his dream and one way or another it WILL run. At least as long as he's in power.

 

[MrMike]

As far as subsidies go remember the government is subsidizing public transport already in the form of propane subsidies that all these conchos run on.

I think it would be wonderfull to have a metro system in the DR provided it works, unfortunately I don't think the DR goverment (any of the administrations) have any accomplishments to date that suggest that they might be even marginally competent enough to build or run something as complicatied as a metro.

I'll believe it when I see it. If it is a success I will applaud but if not I will not be surprised.

 

[NALs]

I also remain skeptical, but am maintaining an open mind.

My goal has been completed, at least with one person.

I've stated this hundreds of times through the years as a DR1 member: people don't need to agree with me on anything, but they should be aware of all opinions and posibilities any given thing can become.

Being skeptical, but with an open mind is a great way to be not just towards this project, but towards everything in life.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

As Nals noted, downtown will become more attractive to tourist and locals alike as a more desirable destination thereby stimulating commerce. It may sound heartless as many of these conchos owners may not have an alternative to feeding their family (maybe they can bargain with Leonel and get jobs running the metro). But that's progress for you, some people lose in the process.

In many cases (as in not all cases) the people who lose are those who do one of the following things:

1. Sit around and whine about the changes
2. Give up
3. Unwilling to accept change

People who are displaced in any given work/profession must be flexible enough in order to embrace the new changes. What does this means? It's a highly personal decision, but in general it means retraining, developing new skills and such in order to adapt to the new reality.

For those who will "lose" their jobs as conchos, they must first look at this as only a temporary defeat. Then, they must develop a plan (preferably starting now) of what they will do to adjust to the new changes that will come. These plans can range from learning a new trade or developing a plan of limiting their expenses and increasing their personal savings the best way they possibly can, etc. Afterwards, the only thing left is putting the plan into action and never recognize quiting or failure as part of the plan. Do this and sooner or later such person will find success in one form or another.

Having said all of this, many will not do this. For those who will, they have a better lot in store for them.

-NALs

 

[macocael]

My goal has been completed, at least with one person.

I've stated this hundreds of times through the years as a DR1 member: people don't need to agree with me on anything, but they should be aware of all opinions and posibilities any given thing can become.

Being skeptical, but with an open mind is a great way to be not just towards this project, but towards everything in life.

-NALs

Oh absolutely. Skeptical and open at the same time is the classic socratic attitude, and though I dont always live up to it, I try. Anyway, for a message board like this, we have to at least try to be civil and entertain different opinions, so long as they are well thought out and argued -- or what is the point? I am not here to blow off steam, I want to learn something. For me it is a pleasure to discuss these matters with people who really take the time to present their argument, provide information,and patiently -- without ever losing one's temper, (though given some of the responses one would be tempted to do so!) -- go over the various points and take the time to respond carefully to each person. Anyone who approaches debate in this manner, as NALs has done, has my undivided attention and respect.

I do worry about the concho drivers who might be superannuated as a result of this thing. I am not sure it will be so easy to absorb these workers in other trades, and I dont think retraining will solve the matter either, as we dont have a governmental office or vocational bodies here to take care of such matters. Nor are there so many jobs about. Most people drift into the concho biz because they happen to have a car. Plus I admit it, I have soft spot in my heart for these guys. I really like the conchistas of St Domingo!

 

[Mirador]

In many cases (as in not all cases) the people who lose are those who do one of the following things:

1. Sit around and whine about the changes
2. Give up
3. Unwilling to accept change

-NALs

4. Revert to a more primitive state of being, like indigency, and cause a massive overload of social services for themselves and their families;
5. Resort to crime, making the lives of those who believe they have attained individual success insufferable, creating immense and boundless security issues and costs;
6. Revolt, and undermine the system through sabotage, making even more insufferable and costly the lives of those who are sure of success without the participation of the whole of society...
7. ?

8. ?

9. ?

-

 

[daddy1]

It is evident to me that the majority of you know nothing about the project, but you sure do seem to have a vendetta against it. Here are THE FACTS:

The government plans on building 10 kilometers of an underground metro. The price is estimated to be US$326.6 millones. It will begin on the bridge of the R?o Isabela, in the most nothern section of M?ximo G?mez, and will end in el Centro de los H?roes. It will have 11 stations and will be 13 meters below ground on the M?ximo G?mez from the Isablea river until calle Correa y Cidr?n, where it will go west and then south towards la avenida Jim?nez Moya. These are the proposed locations all which will be near Rio Isabela on the corners of Nicol?s de Ovando, el Cementerio, la Pe?a Batlle, la John Kennedy, la 27 de febrero, el Teatro Nacional, la secretar?a de Educaci?n, la correa y Cidr?n, la Alma Mater, la Abraham Lincoln, la Jim?nez Moya, Centro de los H?roes, and finally, la avenida Independencia.

The allocated costs for the project are as follows: $125.3 Million US for the internal systems, 99.46 Million in tunnels, $83.36 million in stations and another $13 Million in ancillary costs. EACH station will have back-up power. (Dominicans complain when the lights go out for a few hours, imagine underground.) BEcause the IMF and various banks and unknown money men are involved it is subsidised to a degree and will save the economy $376.8 million US dollars.

To critics who wonder WHT NOT A MONORAIL or BUSES and similar means? A monorail is not feasible because it would limit future expansions of the routes where the strategic location of the project would benifit everyone. ANother factor is that from la 27 de Febrero, the corridor along it makes an intersection on an elevated system much, much, much, more expensive as the digging that must be done drives the costs to inpractible in economic terms to end the route at el Centro de Los H?roes.

AND HERE'S A FACT I HOPE WILL SHUT UP ALL THE CRITICS OF THE PROJECT.

The past Dominican governments have already spent 700 Million buying buses and mini-vans, ALL of which has proved to be a dramatic failure, hence this new proposal. The future costs and matinence of these vechiles by the way, is extraordinary when you factor in the personnel and gasoline costs. Add to this the fact that the country is TRYING to be less petroleum dependent.

I know I said it may be a bit of a cork barrel, but the LONG-TERM investment is definitely worth it when you read the facts and not the hype. My godfather just called me and we had an off-the record discussion on it. DEFINITELY worth it, and it is well planned. You have to believe the facts and not the hype.

Boy I will remember these numbers the next time we discuss education and modern facilties on this forum again...I mean this is just another example of the twisted thinking coming out of the Dominican goverment!!!! amazing...oh and P.S. you also forgot the millions it will cost to maintain, clean, service and train personal to run the rail system as well.. leonel better make sure the PLD is in power forever...I mean where will these other dummies get the funding and there training and information from? I know... maybe the last goverment of fired employees...now really!

 

[arturo]

Biggest hurdle to overcome so the metro will be a benefit...

It's cultural. Metros, like all modern mass transportation, are organized around stops. That would be a sea change from the uniquely disorganized Dominican mess of public transportation. Stops are an abstract concept, used more than anything else as an excuse to deny pedestrians and motorists access to public street space: "tu 'ta mal parado ahi, e'te e' una parada"

It is very common for a carro publico or guagua to be stuck at a corner for up to 20 rush hour minutes (especially when AMET is "directing" traffic). Once the vehicle is able to finally move, it is not unusual for someone to yell, after no more than 3 to 5 feet of movement, "dejame!" It's astonishingly lazy and selfish to keep a busload of people waiting because you don't want to walk half a block, but of course that is the way it is.

Adapting that user population to scheduled runs and established stops, I think, is much easier said than done. Using that sort of system requires a planning mentality and a respect for order. Good luck to us all.

Villa Mella-Maximo Gomez was chosen because at that point the distance is the shortest north-south.

The power plant that will have to be purchased and installed for the metro is not contemplated in the original budget Diandino Pe?a has been using for the metro. That is a different project.

 

[qgrande]

Interestig perspective arturo. You can already picture passengers on the metro going "dejame!!" in the middle of the tunnel

 

[Robert]

How can you compare a metro in a 1st world country to one in an "emerging" world country?

If you want to know what the Metro will be like in 5 years, look no further than the broken down OMSA buses we have on the streets today.

1st world planning, preventative measures etc are not part of the culture here. It takes a massive amount of organization, on-going funding and maintenance to run a metro.

If one of the most important ministries (tourism) in this country doesn't have back up power, what chance does a "I have already made my graft" Metro station have?

The only people that want the Metro are the ones that are lining their pockets, that's the cold hard truth. If the PRD or another party besides the PLD come back into power, they will drop it like a lead balloon. Forget any ongoing funding or subsidies.

Do you want to know another fact...

NAL's, you don't even live here and you will never step foot on the Metro.
You are like the rest of the upper-middle to upper class Dominicans that would rather sit in traffic, in an air-conditioned jeepeta than get in subway with a bunch of smelly chopo's.

Hey, don't call me a pessimist, call me a realist... I live and breath the DR every day, unlike some.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Thank you so much Robert for articulating that which I would have truly enjoyed saying but wouldn't have been able to put across as you have done.

Once the government changes hands in 2008 the Metro hot potato will be dropped in the identical way that so many other endeavors have been over the last 20 years.

Rick

 

[aegap]

Once the government changes hands in 2008 ....

Rick

who is to say the government will change hand in 2008?

 

[Rick Snyder]

Because this is the Dominican Republic! Nuff said

 

[Robert]

who is to say the government will change hand in 2008?

That's for another thread.

Drop it, it will just get deleted by me.

 

[aegap]

cool ;-) ...

 

[RHM]

It's cultural. Metros, like all modern mass transportation, are organized around stops. That would be a sea change from the uniquely disorganized Dominican mess of public transportation. Stops are an abstract concept, used more than anything else as an excuse to deny pedestrians and motorists access to public street space: "tu 'ta mal parado ahi, e'te e' una parada"

It is very common for a carro publico or guagua to be stuck at a corner for up to 20 rush hour minutes (especially when AMET is "directing" traffic). Once the vehicle is able to finally move, it is not unusual for someone to yell, after no more than 3 to 5 feet of movement, "dejame!" It's astonishingly lazy and selfish to keep a busload of people waiting because you don't want to walk half a block, but of course that is the way it is.

Adapting that user population to scheduled runs and established stops, I think, is much easier said than done. Using that sort of system requires a planning mentality and a respect for order. Good luck to us all.

Great analysis that looks beyond the obvious problems of corruption and substandard engineering. Eventually, the culture will make or break it...assuming it is ever up and running.

Scandall