Middle Class in DR

[Chip]

Ouch!:hurt:

Well we do like your pretty pictures.

Anyway many of us don't care that the DR is a relatively poor country, it is rich in many other areas like people's friendliness and genuineness. Therefore don't fret about a bunch of numbers the first two Brahama's are on me.

 

[Acira]

I think a bottle of champagne is in order here, over a 1,000 posts and over 25,000 views and still no real definition of what a "middle class" in the DR represents.
Interesting.

 

[PICHARDO]

A pertinent question is whether the Dominican middle class is self perceived as such. In many countries it is recognized that people tend to be self classified as to a greater class extent than the proportion corresponds to the class from "objective" criteria. In fact, according to Fajardo and Lora, 2010, only about 40 percent of Latin Americans who self-perceived as middle class are really such.

In the case of Chile, the work of Beatriz Silva Pinochet 2005, according to a survey points to how 47 percent of Chileans perceived themselves middle class, 33 percent in the lower middle class and 12 percent in the lower class, but the classification made by the interviewer would place respondents in 22 percent of middle-class, 35 percent in the lower middle class and 37 percent in the low / poverty class.

In the U.S. a survey conducted in 2005 and referred to in Cashell, 2007, found 67 percent of the population self-perceived itself as middle class and only 7 percent as lower class. However, at that time, Measurements of the country indicated that the poor accounted for about 12 percent of population. This suggests that many poor Americans consider themselves as middle class and perceived their poverty as a temporary situation. Eisenhauer, 2008, review several studies leading to the conclusion that the middle class tends to be bulging at the perception of individuals. All this justifies the conclusion Fajardo and Lora, in the sense that "Considered middle class" is not the same as "having the income."

Is that the case in the Dominican Republic?

The comparison of the composition of Dominicans depending on one hand of the ratio of their median family income, and on the otherhand, self-perception of individuals revealed that most of the upper class classified themselves as middle class.

In 2004 for example, the upper middle and upper class according to the criteria of income accounted for about 28 percent of the population, but two surveys conducted by the Global Foundation for Democracy and Development in the same year showed that the group of Dominicans who self-classified themselves as upper middle - upper class was only 6 percent.

From the same source, it was also clear that a good part of the group which according to income criteria was to be considered middle class, actually considered themselves as "lower income class". This is reflected in the fact that when measured from self-perceptions, the segment of the disadvantaged /poor / low appeared larger than it would objectively.

Therefore the middle class measured through self-perception, fed off from that upper class which self perceived themselves as middle class, while individuals in the same said middle class tend to self define themselves as low income.



http://www.stp.gov.do/eWeb\Archivos\Libros\Composicion_Economica_Dominicana.pdf






Have yet to meet the Dominican that thinks or admits he's rich or upper class!

We are all POOR bastards!

I told you it's a Dominican thing to do!

 

[dulce]

I think a bottle of champagne is in order here, over a 1,000 posts and over 25,000 views and still no real definition of what a "middle class" in the DR represents.
Interesting.

I was about to post something similar. Over 1,000 post and it can not be an answered because the middle class in the DR has pretty much disappeared. The same as it has changed in the US. It was predicted many years ago that the middle class would be paying for the rich and the poor. This leaves the middle class closer to the poor.

 

[PICHARDO]

I think a bottle of champagne is in order here, over a 1,000 posts and over 25,000 views and still no real definition of what a "middle class" in the DR represents.
Interesting.

You better believe the data I provided is 99% on cue!


Check yourself against it:




Upper Middle Class 13%, Upper class 5%, Rich 2% = 20%

Middle Class 26%, Lower Middle Class 13%, Low Income 30.6%, Poor 10.4% = 80%

0. Poverty: USD$316 or less to live like 10.4% of these households
1. Low income: USD$527 to 922 to live like 30.6% of these households
2. Low middle class: USD$922 to 1,186 to live like 13% of these households
3. Middle class: USD$1,186 to 4,216 to live like 26% of these households
4. Upper middle class: USD$ 4,216 to 6,588 to live like 13% of these households
5. Upper class: USD$6,588 to 26,351 to live like 5% of these households
6. Rich/wealthy: USD$26,351 + to live like 2% of these households

 

[bob saunders]

Have yet to meet the Dominican that thinks or admits he's rich or upper class!

We are all POOR bastards!

I told you it's a Dominican thing to do!

LOL, reminds me of when I used to fish salmon commercially on the West Coast of Canada. I was making $15,000 in two months as a deck hand ( 10%) and I never met a fisherman that would admit he had a good season or had any money. Same as poor grain farmers on the prairies.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Through of this name calling, numbers, and fotos this boils down to one incontravertible fact, the middle class in DR is bigger than most folks realize. That's the bottom line.

 

[PICHARDO]

I was about to post something similar. Over 1,000 post and it can not be an answered because the middle class in the DR has pretty much disappeared. The same as it has changed in the US. It was predicted many years ago that the middle class would be paying for the rich and the poor. This leaves the middle class closer to the poor.

I strongly believe that on the last cycle of Balaguer's 12 years term, the Burguesia was replaced by the so called low middle, middle and upper middle income levels in the DR. In fact it was something of a trade off we had to undergo, from a Caudillo based ruling to Democracy in one shot.



Was it worth it? I think so!

 

[Chip]

Through of this name calling, numbers, and fotos this boils down to one incontravertible fact, the middle class in DR is bigger than most folks realize. That's the bottom line.

I agree.

Nonetheless, they make a lot less money than most thought. But that can be a good thing if one wants to live here on a minimal budget.

 

[PICHARDO]

LOL, reminds me of when I used to fish salmon commercially on the West Coast of Canada. I was making $15,000 in two months as a deck hand ( 10%) and I never met a fisherman that would admit he had a good season or had any money. Same as poor grain farmers on the prairies.

LOL!!! It comes with the territory! In the case of the DR you're born into it...

 

[Acira]

I strongly believe that on the last cycle of Balaguer's 12 years term, the Burguesia was replaced by the so called low middle, middle and upper middle income levels in the DR. In fact it was something of a trade off we had to undergo, from a Caudillo based ruling to Democracy in one shot.



Was it worth it? I think so!

Yeah well, you may think it was worth it, not sure what that new middle class has to say about it only that they get a heck less for their money these day's then the Burguesia did in their day's.

 

[Acira]

LOL, reminds me of when I used to fish salmon commercially on the West Coast of Canada. I was making $15,000 in two months as a deck hand ( 10%) and I never met a fisherman that would admit he had a good season or had any money. Same as poor grain farmers on the prairies.

There is some truth in that also Bob. Middle class people who consist mostly of independent workers, small business, farmers etc...tend to "complain" a lot that they do not make enough money. They also tend to "cheat" a lot or at least have better chances to avoid taxes on big parts of their income.

 

[PICHARDO]

There is some truth in that also Bob. Middle class people who consist mostly of independent workers, small business, farmers etc...tend to "complain" a lot that they do not make enough money. They also tend to "cheat" a lot or at least have better chances to avoid taxes on big parts of their income.

Now... Now... Bob comes across as a man that won't even think of cheating on his taxes, errrr right Bob?

 

[mountainannie]

You better believe the data I provided is 99% on cue!


Check yourself against it:




Upper Middle Class 13%, Upper class 5%, Rich 2% = 20%

Middle Class 26%, Lower Middle Class 13%, Low Income 30.6%, Poor 10.4% = 80%

0. Poverty: USD$316 or less to live like 10.4% of these households
1. Low income: USD$527 to 922 to live like 30.6% of these households
2. Low middle class: USD$922 to 1,186 to live like 13% of these households
3. Middle class: USD$1,186 to 4,216 to live like 26% of these households
4. Upper middle class: USD$ 4,216 to 6,588 to live like 13% of these households
5. Upper class: USD$6,588 to 26,351 to live like 5% of these households
6. Rich/wealthy: USD$26,351 + to live like 2% of these households

\

Well we have some WILDLY different stats...


from the government report
El gr?fico 13 (B) muestra una visi?n complementaria, al presentar el porcentaje de la poblaci?n que se encuentra entre determinados niveles de ingresos.
Se observa que, del 44% de
la poblaci?n que constitu?a el estrato de ingresos medios en 2010, alrededor de 17% ten?a
un ingreso familiar per c?pita entre la l?nea de pobreza (RD$2,774 por mes)
y la mediana
de la distribuci?n del ingreso total (RD$4,000 por mes); US 74 to 108

16% ten?a ingresos entre la mediana y una vez y medio la mediana (RD$6,000 por mes), US 108 to 162
y
11% entre 1.5 medianas y 2 medianas (RD$8,000 por mes). US 216


En palabras simples: en un pa?s de muy bajos ingresos, aquellos
que est?n en el medio de la distribuci?n tendr?n tambi?n ingresos muy bajos.

Seems to me that you will have to come up with FOUR and one quarter wage earners at the level of twice the poverty level.. which the govt' defines as the TOP of middle class.. in order to even qualify for the BOTTOM of the LOW middle class on your study..

But, it has been many years since I had a statistics course so I certainly could be wrong

but that is what the numbers say to me....

 

[PICHARDO]

Check yourself against it:




Upper Middle Class 13%, Upper class 5%, Rich 2% = 20%

Middle 26%, Lower Middle 13%, Low Income 30.6%, Poor 10.4% = 80% <-I belong here

0. Poverty: USD$316 or less to live like 10.4% of these households
1. Low income: USD$527 to 922 to live like 30.6% of these households
2. Low middle class: USD$922 to 1,186 to live like 13% of these households
3. Middle class: USD$1,186 to 4,216 to live like 26% of these households
4. Upper middle class: USD$ 4,216 to 6,588 to live like 13% of these households
5. Upper class: USD$6,588 to 26,351 to live like 5% of these households
6. Rich/wealthy: USD$26,351 + to live like 2% of these households[/QUOTE]

 

[Onions/Carrots]

MI PAIS la REPUBLICA DOMINICANA, es un PAIS de MAYORIAS POBRES! Nothing false or shameful about holding that truth in public of private!!!!

MI PAIS la REPUBLICA DOMINICANA, es un PAIS de MAYORIAS en HOGARES de CLASES MEDIA Y ALTA! Again nothing false or to be proud about holding that truth in public of private!!!!

I'll accept this from Pick (Pichardo). It'll be a first. If a wealthy man can afford to have 10 homes, he'll have it while the destitute poor (most Dominicans) are all piling up into one tin shack.

In other words, the rich man has 10 homes with 9 empty most of the time while 10 broke Dominicans are living in one home.

As a result, the poor as individuals are numerically the majority while those homes belonging to the non-poor are a majority of homes.

What say you Chip and Gorgon? Can we agree with Pick and Nails on this point and bring this thread to an end? I feel this a point of consensus for all of us involved.

 

[Acira]

Now... Now... Bob comes across as a man that won't even think of cheating on his taxes, errrr right Bob?

Its a general speaking and I took the quote of Bob. I know I can do that with Bob because he is a man who read between lines and just knows that I don't mean that personal just because I took his quote. Some other people should take an example on him sometimes.

 

[PICHARDO]

\

Well we have some WILDLY different stats...


from the government report
El gr?fico 13 (B) muestra una visi?n complementaria, al presentar el porcentaje de la poblaci?n que se encuentra entre determinados niveles de ingresos.
Se observa que, del 44% de
la poblaci?n que constitu?a el estrato de ingresos medios en 2010, alrededor de 17% ten?a
un ingreso familiar per c?pita entre la l?nea de pobreza (RD$2,774 por mes)
y la mediana
de la distribuci?n del ingreso total (RD$4,000 por mes); US 74 to 108

16% ten?a ingresos entre la mediana y una vez y medio la mediana (RD$6,000 por mes), US 108 to 162
y
11% entre 1.5 medianas y 2 medianas (RD$8,000 por mes). US 216


En palabras simples: en un pa?s de muy bajos ingresos, aquellos
que est?n en el medio de la distribuci?n tendr?n tambi?n ingresos muy bajos.

Seems to me that you will have to come up with FOUR and one quarter wage earners at the level of twice the poverty level.. which the govt' defines as the TOP of middle class.. in order to even qualify for the BOTTOM of the LOW middle class on your study..

But, it has been many years since I had a statistics course so I certainly could be wrong

but that is what the numbers say to me....

No you're completely on base, what's not on the same planet is the gov figures!

Like I said, based on the gov and what not figures the income per Household is beyond belief, but wildly accepted as what they are since they come mostly from internal revenues and reports from workers and employers.

The key to unwrapping the monster for what it is, is basing what you now must spend to upkeep basics to what the average you perceive around you as the same. Then add 30 to 40% to the perceived part and you come close to the real raw numbers...

As an example, knowing you family size is one indicator to use a methodology in ascertaining those figures. Break the HH expense budget into the equal parts of your family and that gives you the general idea of what's to have an extra member onboard. Kids only count as 1/2 in that equation of spots

The next is having a car, average your net minimum gas expenditure for the month at basics. Then look next door and count the number of vehicles and that will give you another indication of that area. Each extra vehicle only needs to augment the budget from base up.

There are many variables that can be used to determine a raw average for all your neighbors with little to no interaction required. We are creatures of habit and it shows with stars and stripes all the time!

The more adults/young adults in the household, the higher the probabilities in higher HH income/expense ratios.

As for the gov figures? Do what we do! Take your wallet and make a list of the super basics you can't possibly make do without for the month. Think survivor island of adventure first, to make sure you understand what basic here means....

Visit the store with the lowest prices in your end of the jungle, even make preparations to visit more than two to four places.

Then proceed to buy food for the month, bath soap, bath tissue, deodorant, etc... With that gov provided budget on hand alone, not a penny wiser!

See reality and see utter B.S. in just a few hours...

That's not even accounting for electricity (you have to steal it at gov provided figures just to make do), cooking gas (sorry that ain't going to happen with that budget), Rent? Better not! Transportation? Your best pair of shoes!

Just try it and see what's reality and what's make belief wonderland, or more precisely what I call "la la land"...

Go from upper to middle, from low income to poor and see where that gets you at best (but more likely 99% at worst) using gov provided figures for a living in the DR!

We had a guy place a bet with us at the office that he would be able to it or else had to pay everyone's lunch for a month. Needless to say, it was the happiest month for all the office creatures...

We call it the "unreal" reality...

 

[mountainannie]

Check yourself against it:




Upper Middle Class 13%, Upper class 5%, Rich 2% = 20%

Middle 26%, Lower Middle 13%, Low Income 30.6%, Poor 10.4% = 80% <-I belong here

0. Poverty: USD$316 or less to live like 10.4% of these households
1. Low income: USD$527 to 922 to live like 30.6% of these households
2. Low middle class: USD$922 to 1,186 to live like 13% of these households
3. Middle class: USD$1,186 to 4,216 to live like 26% of these households
4. Upper middle class: USD$ 4,216 to 6,588 to live like 13% of these households
5. Upper class: USD$6,588 to 26,351 to live like 5% of these households
6. Rich/wealthy: USD$26,351 + to live like 2% of these households

[/QUOTE]

perhaps we can do better than that and reach a consensus on these figures as well

which is pretty much in agreement with what we have said in other threads about the cost of maintaining a middleclass life style here in the DR

once I got it that we simply ignore the government figures.. well, then everything is just SOOOO much easier.

 

[bob saunders]

Now... Now... Bob comes across as a man that won't even think of cheating on his taxes, errrr right Bob?

I would not, but I WOULD take advantage of allowable loopholes....etc. Now, my wife, being Dominican, is different.