Mislead Dominican Chavistas

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Apr 26, 2002
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Chavez would not have survived as President of Venezuela as recently as 10 years ago.

Interestingly, if any rule was to be gleamed by the 1965 US invasion of the Dominican Republic, it was that the US would not tolerate "leftist" regimes in the hemisphere, even if those regimes were not communist or soviet-leaning. This policy seemingly ended with the cold war. However, now "leftists" are actually starting to win elections. With Bush's actions in Venezuela during last year's coup attempt, is the policy reverting? Or was it just about oil? Or does Bush not even have a defined policy? Probably a combination of the latter two.

I use the term "leftist" loosely, though, because it is difficult to define Chavez' political philosphy. Populist? Yes. Sophomoric? Definitely. Can anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, explain what "Bolivarian" means???
 

Keith R

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Re: Democracy

Porfio_Rubirosa said:
I agree with Pib's position on democratically elected governments (and will leave the PRD to answer the question of whether they work well with uneducated, ignorant populations). I also agree that Bush's position of tacitly (and probably more than tacitly) supporting the golpistas in Venezuela was "hipo-critical" and harmed US credibility in the region (Jimmy Carter, where are you when we need you.)

That said, if Hipolito is tied to drug trafficing or money laundering, would he survive for five minutes in the face of US pressure??? Chavez has a very real and passionate (albeit sophomoric) ideology and a sizable number of real and passionate followers. They follow him for more than just hand-outs or promises of government jobs. The uneducated masses in the barrios really think he will change the country for the better. He also has strong support from the key military installation in Venezuela, and he is personally integrated into the command structure. Could any of this be said about Hipolito???
1. Chavez is a disaster for his country in so many senses it's hard to know where to start. But he was democratically elected, and the constitution was changed with a national referendum, so he should stay until voted out. Hopefully that will happen in an early election because he'll finally be forced to accept that the division his country now faces is hurting everyone there. But I'm not sanguine he'll opt for the greater good, because he seems quite stubborn & believes much of his own propaganda.
2. Many in the opposition trying to oust him is not much better. Many of them are the same people who supported a corrupt system that preceeded him and bled away Venezuela's chances of using pertodollars to transform the country positively. The ex-head of FEDECAMARAS who was briefly "interim president" last spring demonstrated the contempt some of them have for democracy when it doesn't suit them.
3. Chavez does have that solid 30% support, most of it among the poor factions. So even if he agrees to early elections, he may be tough to beat. Only if all the political factions can form a true united front can they defeat. Individually none of the traditional political parties can muster 30% these days.
4. Many people make much of Chavez's political support in the military, but they are not looking closely. Maybe among rank and file he does okay, and among his paratroop buddies, but the Navy has never been happy with him and there is much unease in the officer ranks. Why else do you think he has churned the armed forces leadership so often?
5. Where Chavez really hurt himself politically last spring was in dissing the unions. If he had kept them mollified, the coup might not have occured and the recent strike certainly would not be as effective as it has been. In Venezuela, it does not pay for a politician to disrespect the oil workers.
6. What the hell is a "Bolivarian Revolution"? If Chavez invented the term and he himself has never been able to really explain it, how can anyone else? I think Simon Bolivar must be spinning in his grave...
7. Folks, US policy toward Venezuela these days has more to do with Otto than it does George. Bush may be giving it some attention now because our oil supplies (both quantities and diversity of courses) are affected and the price of oil is affected, but before now he probably paid little attention and let State (and the CIA) "handle" it. We in the US would be even more worried if the wniter was colder than it has been, since much of our heating oil comes from Venezuela.
8. I'm afraid that it's only a matter of time before the DR faces a fuel crisis (with the obligatory impact at the pump), no matter what Hipo claims about security of supply & how much is stocked. Hipo pegged DR supplies to Venezuela, and now he is paying the price. Do you think even Chavez will long give the DR priority in shipments when exports are 1/4 normal levels and he is desparate for cash? When he looses money on every barrel sold to the DR because of the San Jose Agreement? Not even Chavez is that dense. So how will Hipo make up for the shortfall? Don't look for Mexico to save him. They have been trying to back out of the San Jose Agreement for years. Will the DR simply buy on the open market? Gee, and at what price, now that Venezuelan supplies drop & war with Iraq looms?
9. We all know that Hipo is linked to the cartels (in money laundering at least, if not more than that), and he has not won any friends in USG by being best buddy with Hipo. He has probably not received the wrath of USG because he's been good at kissing Bush's a*s, allowing US forces free run of DR waters & airspace, seeking an FTA with the US, saying nothing about the extradiction of Dominican convicts to the DR, probably even quietly cooperating with US Treasury in tracking money launderers & tax evaders. When he stops being "useful," or if he too seriously courts Fidel, just watch how quickly the US will start "discovering" how corrupt his Administration is & the pressure be applied!
Well, that's my jaundiced take on things, for what it's worth.
Regards,
Keith
 

ajicaribe

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Another wag the dog!!!!!!!!

Los pueblos que no saben sus historias la repetiran. Buenas o malas.

All of this crap has been triggered in Venezuela by the f.. CIA and those intruders.

Go back in time, and then ask, was Venezuela any better or worse before Chavez?
The CIA has orchestrated this like they did in the DR with Juan Bosch, with Allende in Chile, in Grenada as well.
All those unionist in Venezuela are being paid to promote unrest.
Who is paying them?
Look who is behind this, Carlos Andres Perez. You wanna know who he is, then go and talk to the PRD.

Economical and social unrest because somebody has made them believe that, fed that crap to another Latin American country by the all mighty USA.
Let's read people, and flush CNN down the toilet.
I am confident that everybody on this forum knows very well what the american governments have done in Latin America.
Some examples, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama.
 

Ken

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Chavez may call himself a democratically elected president, and I suppose technically he is, but he is certainly not the sort of president that the people of the US, Canada, or most other first world countries would tolerate.

I was in Venezuela at the time he was elected by the poor people of the country, just like Hippo hopes to get reelected here. Then early on he challenged the courts, disolved the Congress, and did a variety of other things that most observers felt were undemocratic and unconstitutional, but that he was able to get away with because he was still riding the wave that brought him to office. Then, while still at the peak of his popularity, he ramrodded a change in the constitution of Venezuela that practically made him president for life.

He would have probably gotten away with it if all, or even many, his promises of a much better life for the poor people had been fulfilled, but they haven't been, so now even many of his early supporters have turned on him.

This is terrible for Venezuela, a potentially very wealthy country. I found the people there, including the man on the street, more sophisticated than the Dominicans, thanks to the benefits they once got from their oil revenues. But now the country is in terrible shape, and the value of their money has erroded much, much faster than in the DR. We worry about what will happen in the DR now that the Peso is over 20, headed toward 30. In 2000 the rate of exchange for the Bol?ar was already about 600 to 1, now it is around 1500 to 1.

In the DR you can't buy much with less than a RD$100 bill. In Venezuela you walk around with bills of at least B$1000, and most likely have some B10,000 and B20,000 bills in your possession.

All this hooey about the present trouble in Venezuela being engineered by the CIA is strictly hog wash as far as I am concerned. I am not naive about the role the CIA has played the in the world. But I have been in Venezuela, heard the people talk, seen how Chavez powered his way to what is practically a presidency for life, and how he has failed the people who trusted him. As far as I am concerned, he is reaping a whirlwind of his own making.
 

jose?to

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aj?caribe

Yes, we CI A trend. And what's next, Lula's govt. in Brazil?

-Jose?to
Can we get Pinochet and Kissinger to go to Madrid for vacation?
 

Escott

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AZB said:
Is it true that DR has 6 months of oil supply? Does this mean our gasoline prices won't hike for sometime? can we get crude oil from some place else for time being?
By the way, Gasoline prices did go up from RD$ 36 and change to RD$ 39 and change for the regular unleaded.

For the same reasons it went up in the states. Iraqi possibility of war, Korea, Venezuela. Same reason Gold is going up also imho.
 

ajicaribe

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Thanks Ken for your points.
However I truly believe there is more to it than just Chavez.

I do acknowledge and appreciate your point of view.

Cheers
 

gallorojo

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Sep 5, 2003
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I can't believe the ignorance of this message board!

Chavez has made only one mistake, he is slow to act and tolerates the Miami Mafia golpistas too much.....death sentences for the officers who made the coup, life in labour camps for the "opposition"(Yanqui agents)..... Chavez is very popular among educated young people everywhere.....from Colombia to Bolivia to DR to Cuba....he stands up to the US, to the corrupt capitalists who made their money exploiting people....

I am simply amazed at how the US teaches Dominicans to be such loyalists to its system. If it wasn't for capitalism and pretty much feudalism not too long ago.....you people would never have to leave the DR!


And the way some of you on this board mock the Spanish tradition of our country.....I AM PROUD TO BE 100% SPANISH DECENT! And you know what? The way you guys talk about Haitians, well.....they are not much different from the poorest of the Dominicans, and even the ones that are cafe con leche are not that different from Dominicans.... But hey, while you little prietos are trying to embrace capitalism and figure out how to make a living exploiting your own people..... WE THE EDUCATED CLASS WHO FOUNDED AND CREATED OUR BELOVED PATRIA....who created DOminican culture, and whose language YOU speak....well, we are struggling for a better life for ALL Dominicans while you guys just worry about making money......and yeah, remember, when a ship is sinking the rat is always the first to jump!
 

ltsnyder

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Why don't you stop talking and hit the books

Pib, Keith R, Ken do you have any idea what you are talking about? Have you read about anything Chaves has done? Do you really care. If Chaves is gone tomorrow, and then you finally read what Chaves was trying to do, and you then feel he was right, will you send money to the Venezuela to make right what you help make wrong? Will you cry? Will you even admit you were wrong in a public forum?

If I asked any one of you what Chaves had tried to do for the country and why, I'd either see blank looks, dumb cliche attacks or be drowned out by anger. Why don't you try to read about what he has tried to do for the country and why, then tell me why he has failed. Your ingnorance in the first part shows how little you really care for the Venezuela.

How anyone can associate Hipo with Chaves is mind boggling.

Can any one tell me what Chaves had tried to do for Venezuela and why, and come close to hitting the mark? Supprise me, but I'll give you a hint, you won't get the right answer till you read, and search out the truth.

-Lee
 

Chris

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Re: Why don't you stop talking and hit the books

ltsnyder said:
Pib, Keith R, Ken do you have any idea what you are talking about? Have you read about anything Chaves has done?

Lee, maybe you have a hard time reading. Ken was there. He observed this Chaves phenomenon first hand. He walked 'among the people'. All I can say is, the fellow tried, but alas, he was unsuccessful.
 

Pib

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Re: Why don't you stop talking and hit the books

[B]ltsnyder[/B] said:
Pib, Keith R, Ken do you have any idea what you are talking about? Have you read about anything Chaves has done? Do you really care.
Do I care? Only slightly more than I care about what Anders Fogh Rasmussen has done for his country. What's your point? What do YOU know about Venezuela? Or are you arguing for the sake of it.

Better yet. Find a Dominican connection ASAP or any other post will be deleted. Save yourself the work.
 
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XanaduRanch

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Sep 15, 2002
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Rarely have I ever seen anyone who is so skillful at using a large number of words to convey ... absolutely ... nothing.

LTS, you keep asking if anyone knows this, or why don't you know that. If you know something, why don't you enlighten everyone instead of just winking and nodding at everyone like you know what's going without ever proving it. 95% of your posts are just "if you only knew what I knew blah blah blah." Knew what? for crying out loud. Say something!

Put up or shut up, dude.
 

goatfarmnga

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Jun 24, 2003
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XanaduRanch said:
Rarely have I ever seen anyone who is so skillful at using a large number of words to convey ... absolutely ... nothing.

for crying out loud. Say something!

Put up or shut up, dude.

OK Tom..Relax...some people like to purely BS..and this CHavez subject brings it out in some (they know who they are..)..Lucky me..I have no idea who he is and do not care..Just loved you saying "put up or shut up, DUDE..LOL :) Pam
 

ltsnyder

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Let me get this straight . . . .

XanaduRanch want me to explain my reasons, and Pib wants me to keep the thread Dominican related. I see no solution unless Pib gives an explicit stay of execution. Even then this is a mind bender, Pib believes you can have a discussion on dominicans who allie themselves with Chaves, with out discussing who Chaves is, because that is not a Dominican thread (can some one hand me a Valium?).

According to the previous post by Pib, this post should be deleted because it does not discuss the DR, but rather procedure.

Delete away :(

-Lee
 

XanaduRanch

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Sep 15, 2002
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Another completely empty post. Why I am not surprised?

You remind of Mr. bean standing in the corner of a dinner party pretending to be a brain surgeon nodding politely at everything everyone says like you know what's going on while not understanding one word that's passing anybody's else's lips.

Maybe you need to read the books, and when you can understand why comparisons are being made between Chavez and His Baldness, then you can come back and post.
 

Pib

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The original question IIRC is "was the Dominican press mislead about Chavez?". That's what we were all talking about, can you please address that? I think your post won't be deleted if you do.

Please just come up with something else than "I have no clue what you're talking about but I sternly disagree with you".
 

ltsnyder

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So your allowing this thread to discuss Chaves?

Pib said:
The original question IIRC is "was the Dominican press mislead about Chavez?". That's what we were all talking about, can you please address that? I think your post won't be deleted if you do.

Please just come up with something else than "I have no clue what you're talking about but I sternly disagree with you".

Can we discuss who Chaves is first, then try to establish if the press is mislead? Or is breaking a process down into descreet parts something that is wrong? I'm not trying to stress you, I think XanaduRanch wants to discuss this too. I mean, ok, just forget it, I'm not going to bend over backwards for this discussion. XanaduRanch if you want to discuss it, get Pib to explicitly back off.

-Lee
 

ltsnyder

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Pib I'd like you to acknowledge that . . . .

In order to compare anything Dominican to something non-Dominican, you need to first acknowledge that a dicussion of something non-dominican must take place. And that such a discussion should not and can not be threatened or deleted because it is non-Dominican. Thus as a conclusion if any duscussion tries to make a comparison, test of equality or differentiate between anything Dominican and non-Dominican, Hence-forth you should logically take only one of two actions.

1) Delete the discussion because it is making a comparison with something non-Dominican and that is Verboten.

2) Allow the discussion to proceed and take the pledge of non-interferance, unless the discussion goes beyond the non-Dominican X, and the Dominican Y.

I think even Rob (being a man of logic) could agree to that.

Thus we have now changed the way in-which forums are now moderated.

Just to clarify, so let's give some examples, if a thread is,

"Is Hipolito like Fidel", then any post purely discussing the nature Fidel as a non-Dominican thread nature must be tollerated if the discussion thread itself is considered permissible.

Other examples might be like (but not exclusive too):

"Is Sammy Sosa like Mark Spitz"

"What do G W Bush and Leonel have in common"

"Is the weather better in Florida or Santiago?"

Pib, you may now reply with you pledge.

-Lee
 

XanaduRanch

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Sep 15, 2002
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That's three more posts and nothing of substance. What's the problem? Is it that difficult to have an opinion on the subject?

... still waiting ... !
 
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