New Refinery for Manzanillo!!!

Texas Bill

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The road is not too bad Texas Bill, but I cannot see that it will last without serious upgrading when oil trucks start using it.

The other issue is that the complete coastal area from Manzanillo right down to Luperon has some of the most well preserved coral reefs in the Caribbean - this is on the one hand. We believe (information from divers but not from marine biologists), that there are coral species that have become extinct or dead from reef bleaching in the rest of the Caribbean, still existing and even flourishing in the area. No doubt the low tourist numbers have contributed to leaving this underwater paradise quite undisturbed. On the other hand, fishing is another issue. Some reefs have abundant fish species of the right nature, but some reefs are denuded. The reefs that the tourists visit, are usually left alone by the fisherman. Other reefs are just simply fished out and you see these ghostly reefs that are busy decomposing, as the sealife, shrimp type creatures and reef fish form a necessary part of the ecosystem of a reef and is necessary for healthy preservation of the reef. I have snorkeled and dived just about everywhere in the Caribbean. If there is anywhere that an underwater coral park can be done with great success, and can be used to preserve some of the reef structures and ocean life, it is on that stretch of beach.

Manzanillo is the only port where shrimp fisherman still go out of on that coast. The rest of the stretch has no more shrimp .. in fact, the shrimp has been 'eaten up'. Some of the old folks there still remember the area being a paradise for shrimp and can tell stories of how many they caught, and how easily. Now, West of Manzanillo, fishermen are having a really hard time, to the extent of fishing on the Caicos Banks in boats that defy description and having to run from the Turks and Caicos authorities. On that island, they have strong protective measures in place, as well as enforcement. I have heard that money changes hands sometimes for the Turks and Caicos authorities to look the other way.

I would put forward that for all the advantages of the site (relatively hurricane free, deep water, etc.,) the ecology in the area remains sensitive and is under extreme stress at the moment, in terms of its ability to feed its local people, and to remain viable environmentally. I heard a scary statistic and would certainly not support this number, but somehow it feels right to me. The estimate is that the DR can only supply 25% of its own seafood needs. Good Heavens, we live on an island close to some of the richest banks for seafood in the world and we can only supply 25% of what the island needs? What is wrong with this picture?

Local people in the area live rural lives, and they estimate that at least 80% of their staple food comes from the ocean.

Like other areas, the main forests on this stretch that ensure a good level of topsoil so that the the ground remains fertile and the water table is preserved, were clear cut and logged, with wood going to Europe. I think the Hillbilly remembers the people that had the logging concession in the area. Certainly there are old local people that tell stories about the logging. This is still in current memory. Add to that current slash and burn agriculture, some shortage of fresh water (this is easily solved but no-one is really doing anything) and you have an area that is going to look like Haiti if nothing is done to preserve it, and further ecological stressors are added.

Can the economic advantage of a refinery preserve an area that is under extreme threat environmentally? I don't know the answer, but I would surely like someone to pay attention to this question.

Chris:

Take another look at the map of Hispaniola, please. The area from Mont Cristi to Luperon is not germane to the environmental issues. Manzanillo Bay is WEST of Monte Cristi and the only coastal areas envolved are the "Seis Hermanos" group which are adjacent to the Park area where the reported "Armed Gangs" of Haitians are operating.
In addition, the local fishermen usually go out ot the T&C Banks to do their commercial fishing. They "poach" on the T&C and the Bahamas since they have "fished out" their own environs locally. I might add that the only shrmp available are of the "fresh water" variety. I have never seen "deep water" varieties any where in Manzanillo; they just aren't available and are seldom "fished". FYI, the main sources of "meat" in the area are chicken and pork. What fish are harvested are sold outside the community since that product is much too expensive for the locals to purchase. In addition, the main sourceof income for local inhabitants are derived from relatives in the States and Europe. There is virtually no income producing labor market for the locals except for the occasional ship operated by Rainbow Farms in shipping their melons and bananas to foreign markets.
Finally, this area is extremely depressed economically and the building of the Refinery and the Coal-fired plant would be a God-send.

Texas Bill
 

Chris

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Of course you know more about Manzanillo itself. I've only been to Manzanillo (port) a few times. I'm more talking about the few small rural villages that dot that part of the coastline. I also consider that coast an integral whole in terms of ecosystem and geography and I do love that part of the island. Yes, the port itself is tucked in 'around the corner' so to speak and I'll check some charts to see winds and currents - the question is, in case of mishap, where is the stuff going to go to?.

It is the old question, Texas Bill, the balance between economic development and ecological damage? As I said, I don't have answers for that?
 

Texas Bill

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Of course you know more about Manzanillo itself. I've only been to Manzanillo (port) a few times. I'm more talking about the few small rural villages that dot that part of the coastline. I also consider that coast an integral whole in terms of ecosystem and geography and I do love that part of the island. Yes, the port itself is tucked in 'around the corner' so to speak and I'll check some charts to see winds and currents - the question is, in case of mishap, where is the stuff going to go to?.

It is the old question, Texas Bill, the balance between economic development and ecological damage? As I said, I don't have answers for that?

Chris:

That part of thecoastline is almost circulatory where the currents are concerned. "Usually", the current is Eastward flowing until it reaches the environs adjacent to Cayo Arena then it entersects with the Westward flow of the Atlantic into the Caribbean via the Windward passage. around the island of Tortuga. The current slits there andpart foes up the "Old Bahama Channel" into the Straits of Florida, the rest going Southwest past the Southern Cuban coast. This is further split so that some of the current goes past Navarro Island (think spelling correct) and onward to the South Coast of Jamaica into theCaribbean Basin where it co-mingles with the "Yucatan" portion of the Gulf Stream current. From there into the Gulf of Mexico through the "whirlpool" off the Southwestern Keys and further circulates in the Gulf. A very convoluted system, to say the least.
IF the transportation of product is done correctly, the super-tankers will offload the Crude at Manzanillo then take on the finished products for onward transport to the recipients on the US East Coast. That's not to say that they will, however. They may just decide to pump their compartments "clean" right there and contaminate the area. I would say that legal restrictions should be placed on that type of operation as apreventive measure. Who is to say that the Dominican Legislature, or the governing agencies, will think of that though.
Your points are well taken. let us hope that the proper legal safeguards are initiated to prevent degradation of the environment in that and other affected areas.

Texas Bill
 

Chris

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Chris:

That part of thecoastline is almost circulatory where the currents are concerned. "Usually", the current is Eastward flowing until it reaches the environs adjacent to Cayo Arena then it entersects with the Westward flow of the Atlantic into the Caribbean via the Windward passage. around the island of Tortuga. The current slits there andpart foes up the "Old Bahama Channel" into the Straits of Florida, the rest going Southwest past the Southern Cuban coast. This is further split so that some of the current goes past Navarro Island (think spelling correct) and onward to the South Coast of Jamaica into theCaribbean Basin where it co-mingles with the "Yucatan" portion of the Gulf Stream current. From there into the Gulf of Mexico through the "whirlpool" off the Southwestern Keys and further circulates in the Gulf. A very convoluted system, to say the least.

Thanks and I feel like saying Duh to myself (you must be wondering what is wrong with me). I actually knew all this ... current flowing east and winds on the nose if you're out there after about 11.30 in the day with some sails flapping on top of you trying to go with the current :cheeky: ....

It is that first stretch east past Cayo Arena that bothers me, and makes me say that the area is an ecological unit in terms of coastline ... relatively unspoilt on the one hand and terribly endangered on the other. In addition, a tremendously extensive system, so, the area of potential damage in case of mishap, is huge.

Let's hope that the powers cross their T's and dot their I's on this one!
 

aegap

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As it is today

"The (existing) refinery, built in the 1970s, has a capacity of less than 50,000 b/d, obliging the Dominican Republic to import more than 115,000 b/d of products."

..."Refidomsa currently processes 33,000 barrels per day (bpd), which is the same quantity it processed when it was opened in 1973."

.. the proposed Manzanillo refinery will have to export because it will produce WAY more than can be consumed nationally.
 
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gary short

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How about this scenario......it'll never happen....ever....never
 

Texas Bill

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"The (existing) refinery, built in the 1970s, has a capacity of less than 50,000 b/d, obliging the Dominican Republic to import more than 115,000 b/d of products."

..."Refidomsa currently processes 33,000 barrels per day (bpd), which is the same quantity it processed when it was opened in 1973."

.. the proposed Manzanillo refinery will have to export because it will produce WAY more than can be consumed nationally.

aegap;

I have no idea what the capacity of theproposed refinery will be. however, you can bet your bottom dollar that the QUALITY of theproducts refined will far surpass what is being produced at the refinery here now. Think back overthe past years and recall the number of tines that this refinery has produced refined products that have been the cause of severe damage to vehicles because of contamination anad/or incorrect additives. I'm certain that the "quality control" of the "new" refinery will be far greater since the end product is intended for the US market where the "rules of the game" are much more rigorously enforced.
Chris, with the eastward flowing current being a predominate factor offshore of Cayo Arena, I don't think that any contamination intrusion to Seis Hermanos, or any portion of the reef complex adjacent to the coastal waters of the DR would be significant. The Haitian population has already estroyed their own fishing grounds around Tortuga and theWest Coast of Hispaniola to such a degree as to render them unrecoverable in the forseeable future. The same scenario applies to the Jamaican coastline. Perhaps some restrictions of "cleanout" could be imposed by requiring thetankers to pump their refuse into adjacent holding tanks for seperation and disposal locally so as to eliminate the possibility of contamination later by the "pump-out" cleaning method at sea. That has been effective off-shore in the States, but then, therules are more rigorously applied there.
Further, the coal-fired scenario for the Monte Cristi/Manzanillo area seems to be moot at this point intime. The proposers of these plants haven't come up with the required "credit" of $30 million as yet for either proposed site location.
The next question in my mind is, will the Leonel Administration make use of the just acquired US$170 million to alleviate the shortfall of debt to theelectrical producers (thus abrogating the necessity of floating a loan for that purpose with the WB), or will they "poop-off" this infusion of money and distribute it peacemeal to "other" projects???

Texas Bill
 

aegap

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Looks Like Things Have Morphed to Very Serius Stage, ..

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=a18b>Saudi Arabia?s ambassador in the U.S. to visit Dominican Republic

</TD></TR><TR><TD>
1X1.gif
</TD></TR><TR><TD>Washington. ?Foreign minister Carlos Morales and the Saudi Arabia?s ambassador in this city Turki Al-Faisal, last Friday completed the protocol for the latter?s visit to Dominican Republic from the 12th to the 16th this month.
The visit is part of the process to reestablish diplomatic ties between both nations, and the Dominican official will in turn be received by the nation?s king, Abdela Ben Abdel Aziz.
According to ambassador Al-Faisal, his country has a marked interest in making important investments in Dominican Republic and informed Morales in that regard.
Both diplomats spoke during a meeting in this capital and in which oil consultant H. Delano Roosevelt [(grandson of the former U.S. president)], and Dominican industrialist Rolando Gonz?lez Bunster [(an old friend of former U.S. president Bill Clinton)] took part.
Morales will visit Saudi Arabia, invited by that nation?s Foreign minister Saud Al Faisal. He stressed the importance for Dominican Republic to have diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, pointing out that it?s one of the major oil producing nations.
He said he was pleased with the results of the meeting with Al-Faisal, who visited Dominican Republic last year and was received in the National Palace by president Leonel Fernandez.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

aegap

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Bill Clinton commenting on old college roommate at some big event in New York City:

"...I would Like to ask my friend Rolando Gonzalez Bunster (ph) to join me up on the stage. Thirty -- oh, I have to say this -- 37 years ago we graduated from Georgetown University together.

(Applause)

And he has committed to build two wind energy power plants totaling 109 megawatts in the Dominican Republic, for a total investment of in excess of $130 million. Thank you very much.

(Applause)

This will provide electricity to people who neet it very much, while addressing global warming and promoting development in a place where I spend a lot of time and where my AIDS project is very active. So thank you, Rollando. Thank you very much.

(Applause)"
 
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Keith R

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Good ole aegap, always ready to pelt us with more press releases...:tired:

Nowhere in the release was the possible refinery mentioned, and establishing full diplomatic ties does not necessarily have something to do with it (possible, but not necessarily linked). It is not necessary to have an embassy in Santo Domingo for the Saudis to invest in a refinery.
 

aegap

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I guess you skipped over the following part, ..

"According to ambassador Al-Faisal, his country has a marked interest in making important investments in Dominican Republic and informed Morales in that regard.
Both diplomats spoke during a meeting in this capital and in which oil consultant H. Delano Roosevelt [(grandson of the former U.S. president)], and Dominican industrialist Rolando Gonz?lez Bunster [(an old friend of former U.S. president Bill Clinton)] took part. "


..and the fact Rolando Gonzalez-Bunster is president of some big energy company in DR.
 

aegap

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I don't assume such a thing. I do, howerver, in some way speculate it is more likely than not that the a proposed refinery in Manzanillo (or something to that effect) was discussed.

here my basis for such speculation:

"According to ambassador Al-Faisal, his country has a marked interest in making important investments in Dominican Republic and informed Morales in that regard.
Both diplomats spoke during a meeting in this capital and in which oil consultant H. Delano Roosevelt [(grandson of the former U.S. president)], and Dominican industrialist Rolando Gonz?lez Bunster [(president of some big energy company in DR)] took part. "
 
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Keith R

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could be the Manzanillo refinery, could be a refinery elsewhere in the DR (possibly even a buy-out and refitting of the existing Refidomsa refinery), could be purchasing a gasoline distribution network in the DR, could be an LPG port in the DR, could be a petrochemical plant, could be a tank farm, could be an offshore fueling facility...

....could be any of a number of things in the oil and gas industry, all of which the Saudis have global investments in. Just because they talk O&J doesn't mean it had to be about Manzanillo. You did indeed assume so, else why post this PR fluff in this particular thread?
 

aegap

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could be the Manzanillo refinery, could be a refinery elsewhere in the DR (possibly even a buy-out and refitting of the existing Refidomsa refinery), could be purchasing a gasoline distribution network in the DR, could be an LPG port in the DR, could be a petrochemical plant, could be a tank farm, could be an offshore fueling facility...

exactly! ..and as such it relates to the topic of this thread, specially given the fact that Al-Faisal's last visit to DR some months ago was SPECIFICALLYto discuss the possibility of the Saudis financing/building a new refinery in the Northwest part of the country!

"President Leonel Fernandez hosted the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Turki al-Faisal, for an official lunch at the national palace on Friday, his office said in a statement.
Al-Faisal and the president had discussed a possible refinery, which would supply the eastern United States and the Dominican Republic, "
 

Keith R

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Didn't say it couldn't relate to the project, just saying it doesn't have to relate and cautioned against assuming it is linked.

Establishing full diplomatic relations between two countries is one thing, actually putting one's money down on investments is another.

The DR has had many, many such "expressions of interest" in investing from the Middle East, many of which ultimately never materialized. Just ask anyone who's lived in the DR a long time or spent much time here on DR1.
 

aegap

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Keith, cool.
<HR style="COLOR: #173f96" SIZE=1>
Here's how today's dr1 daily news covered it, ..

Saudi investments imminent?
Minister of Foreign Relations Carlos Morales Troncoso has held a meeting with Saudi Arabian ambassador in the US Turki al-Faisal in Washington, D.C to complete the protocol for his visit to Saudi Arabia on 12-16 February. Morales will initiate final talks for the establishment of diplomatic relations between both countries as well as meeting with King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz during his visit.
Reportedly, Ambassador Al-Faisal, who is nephew to the Saudi Arabian King, has indicated that his country is interested in carrying out important investments in the DR.
Morales Troncoso will visit Saudi Arabia at the invitation of his colleague Saud al Faisal, brother of the Saudi Arabian ambassador in Washington. Al Faisal visited the DR last year and was received by President Leonel Fernandez.
Petroleum consultant H. Delano Roosevelt, grandson of the late US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and electricity investor, Rolando Gonzalez Bunster also took part in the meeting.
 

Texas Bill

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OK, here we go again...
Round and round the subject and all purely seculation.

When Faisal visited the DR, it was specifically to discuss the potential of a refinery being built...Speculation pointed to the Manzanillo Project because that embayment is the only SAFE DEEP WATER EMBAYMENT in the Caribbean Basin.
After many weeks of specusltion, it will be reacalled that much adoo was made over the fact that the FACILITIES of the Port of manzanillo would require a couple of billion to bring it up to International Standards, since it had been allowed to deteriorate to the point of almost unusability by large vessels.
That is thelast i heard of the"Refinery" being located there.
The DR Government has been extremely neglictful of the Port since the vacation by the Banana Company (I don't recall which one) left overnight when Trujillo demanded that all shipments be made from theSanto Domingo Area Ports. They pulled out and left overnight when that edict ws issued by "El Jefe". Since then the Northwestern part of the country has been totally ignored by the Government until the Refinery and theCoal-fired Electric Plants recently raised their flags. Even that is still "up in the air" since the Chinese Company wants to charge for "Installed Capacity" instead of what is aactually produced for sale and bought. (That ugly old Madrid Accord" again raises its ugly head).
So, Aegap nd Keith both, you're discussing something that even the Government doesn't know anything about (or else, they're holding their cards VERY CLOSE to their chests), and I'd bet on the latter.

So, What else is new???

Texas Bill

PS. The last I heard about Manzanillo was that the Gov was about to invest RD$130 million in refurbrishing the facilities. FYI, it'll take 10 times that amount since the Wharf alone must be COMPLETELY REBUILT in order to meet International Maritime Standards.
With that, there must be several DEEP WATER MOORINGS with pump facilities and pipelines to shore to accomodate the ultra-deep draft tankers and their offloading/onloading of product for Manzanillo and/or other destinations.

In other words, A LOT OF MONEY must be spent before they even break round for a Refinery. The Infrastructure must be made compatible for theTOTAL operation FIRST.

T