- Thread starter laurapasinifan
- Start date
ok officially are TIPS(propina?) always included in the meal price?
Resentment is boiling up because of a system which doesn't make sense. On one hand you have the restaurant owner saying he keeps the 10% service charge because he has to pay a minimum wage. Then you have the customer who sees a 10% tip added to his check, knows the server isn't getting it, and feels he should tip the server anyway. The only one benefiting from this system is the restaurant owner who is having his payroll costs subsidized by a 10% tax on his gross receipts (service charge). The server and the patron are both feeling abused.
Howmar said: "Resentment is boiling up because of a system which doesn't make sense."
If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the government. I don't like it either and I am not the only restaurant owner who feels this way. In your haste to bash us for adhering to the law, did you ever think of that?
If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the government. I don't like it either and I am not the only restaurant owner who feels this way. In your haste to bash us for adhering to the law, did you ever think of that?
If you take the chip off your shoulder and reread my entire post you will see that I bashed nobody, only stated the facts and my perception as a patron. Why so sensitive? Were my facts wrong? Is my perception of my perception wrong?Andy B said:
The bottom line is most patrons feel they are paying restaurant prices on par with middle America prices, yet having to subsidize the restaurant owners payroll, regardless of quality of service.
You got my attention!
I wouldn't generally commnent on all this but yesterday I started reading the thread and now I am hooked!
True tipping should be for good service, but I don't beleive that to be an absolute! As you read through the thread you can see different occassions when delayed meals caused by another table, return of dinner, or like, for someone to think they have poor service. Let's get a grip! Things happen! No need to blame some poor waiter or waitress trying to earn a living!
Me personally? I tip! It's in my nature. The first time I went to Playa Carribe beach, they charged me the same 100 pesos for the lounge chair as everywhere else on the island. Next time I came, I asked for a table and an umbrella for the dog. Same 100 pesos. I give them 120. Why? Because when I come every one of the guys working on the beach goes out of his way to say hello, move an umbrella, find the right spot, etc. for Cos and me. That's more than worth the 20 pesos. If I have to move later, they move me.
Get a beer for 60-80 pesos in a restraunt and not leave the rest for a tip? How cheap would I be? Don't forget these establishments make their money on turnover. If someone is sitting at an outdoor cafe sipping a beer for two hours, sort of takes away the opportunity for the waiter to make money on others, doesn't it? If you were in the US and you walked up to the bar and ordered a soda, beer or drink, and then took your beer back to talk to your friends, aren't you expected to leave atleast a $1? You bet you are! All the bartender did was get you the bottle or pour the draft. Why is that so different?
As far as the DR expecting the 10% to help employers pay their employees, I don't agree with that! That's part of the cost of doing business. Would you expect to see the 10% in there when yo go to buy your clothes or health club membership? Maybe when you went to see the doctor! Didn;t they give you service? should you help pay the salary there, or is that expense included in the retail price, or doctor visit? The sales girl helped you find an outfit. That's part of your overhead and the restraunt owner should figure his prices accordingly. I can understand it in the price of the meal, n ot as an add on. I don't buy the excuse!
C'mon people! Agree with me or not, I keep the same standards and practices on tipping as I do traveling in the US, Europe, Mexico or anywhere else in the world! Stop being so petty! And if that makes me a stupid gringo, well, I've been called worse and gotten a lot less for the same money!
JRR
I wouldn't generally commnent on all this but yesterday I started reading the thread and now I am hooked!
True tipping should be for good service, but I don't beleive that to be an absolute! As you read through the thread you can see different occassions when delayed meals caused by another table, return of dinner, or like, for someone to think they have poor service. Let's get a grip! Things happen! No need to blame some poor waiter or waitress trying to earn a living!
Me personally? I tip! It's in my nature. The first time I went to Playa Carribe beach, they charged me the same 100 pesos for the lounge chair as everywhere else on the island. Next time I came, I asked for a table and an umbrella for the dog. Same 100 pesos. I give them 120. Why? Because when I come every one of the guys working on the beach goes out of his way to say hello, move an umbrella, find the right spot, etc. for Cos and me. That's more than worth the 20 pesos. If I have to move later, they move me.
Get a beer for 60-80 pesos in a restraunt and not leave the rest for a tip? How cheap would I be? Don't forget these establishments make their money on turnover. If someone is sitting at an outdoor cafe sipping a beer for two hours, sort of takes away the opportunity for the waiter to make money on others, doesn't it? If you were in the US and you walked up to the bar and ordered a soda, beer or drink, and then took your beer back to talk to your friends, aren't you expected to leave atleast a $1? You bet you are! All the bartender did was get you the bottle or pour the draft. Why is that so different?
As far as the DR expecting the 10% to help employers pay their employees, I don't agree with that! That's part of the cost of doing business. Would you expect to see the 10% in there when yo go to buy your clothes or health club membership? Maybe when you went to see the doctor! Didn;t they give you service? should you help pay the salary there, or is that expense included in the retail price, or doctor visit? The sales girl helped you find an outfit. That's part of your overhead and the restraunt owner should figure his prices accordingly. I can understand it in the price of the meal, n ot as an add on. I don't buy the excuse!
C'mon people! Agree with me or not, I keep the same standards and practices on tipping as I do traveling in the US, Europe, Mexico or anywhere else in the world! Stop being so petty! And if that makes me a stupid gringo, well, I've been called worse and gotten a lot less for the same money!
JRR
Howmar says: "The only one benefiting from this system is the restaurant owner who is having his payroll costs subsidized by a 10% tax on his gross receipts (service charge). The server and the patron are both feeling abused."
Andy B says: "If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the government. I don't like it either and I am not the only restaurant owner who feels this way. In your haste to bash us for adhering to the law, did you ever think of that?"
Does my reply indicate a chip on my shoulder? I'm only stating the facts. And in regards "mid-west prices" being alluded to, in the past two years we've seen our food supply prices increase by over 100% in some cases (the government admits to 88% devaluation) and yet we've only raised our menu prices less than 20% in most cases. Yes restaurant prices have increased, but then so has everything else here in the DR. Again I repeat, I don't like it either but don't criticize us restauranteers when we adhere to the law regarding charging the 10% service tax.
Andy B says: "If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the government. I don't like it either and I am not the only restaurant owner who feels this way. In your haste to bash us for adhering to the law, did you ever think of that?"
Does my reply indicate a chip on my shoulder? I'm only stating the facts. And in regards "mid-west prices" being alluded to, in the past two years we've seen our food supply prices increase by over 100% in some cases (the government admits to 88% devaluation) and yet we've only raised our menu prices less than 20% in most cases. Yes restaurant prices have increased, but then so has everything else here in the DR. Again I repeat, I don't like it either but don't criticize us restauranteers when we adhere to the law regarding charging the 10% service tax.
Yes, your feeling that my stating facts is "bashing" you seems a bit oversensitive.Andy B said:
Yes the peso has devalued, but the actual inflation rate here in the DR has been under fairly good control for the past 18 months. Last years inflation rate was less than 15%. BTW I was referring to midprice restaurants, not mid-west restauramts.Andy B said:
Nobody is saying you should be in business not to make money. What we are saying is your payroll is your payroll.Andy B said:
I believe the word is restauranteur. Your suffix is more apropriate for the word racketeer.Andy B said:
The only time I REALLY resent this 10% for service tax is when I break down and go through the McDonald's or Burger King drive-through, and the creeps tack on the 10% as well. Where's the service???
Howmar says: "Your suffix is more apropriate for the word racketeer" And now you're inferring that we who own restaurants are crooks? Jeeze, you don't quit, do you. LOL! And believe me, the 10% tax also won't quit and will continue to be charged by us "racketeers" until the government changes the law. When they do, we'll have to raise the menu prices by a similar amount to maintain our lavish profit levels. That should please you even more.
Personally, I don't like the idea of automatically adding a tip but the simple reality is that people are free to enquire what the total price/policy is before they order so there are no surprises and you are free to leave and stay away.
Not tippers and complaints
They go hand-in-hand and it's been proven over and over again.
They order their meal, meanwhile having a drink.... which they may complain about also. The service slow for whatever reason? So while they're waiting the waitress asked would you like to have another..... he says yes, but where is my meal. His meal comes and eats half and waves down the waitress and complains for whatever reason. She's polite and says let me get you another order..... the way most restaurants are because the customer is always right. He finishes his meal and leaves no tip.... even if it was excellent he still would not leave a tip. So who loses..... the waitress, the owner..FOOD COST meanwhile still having to pay his Cooks, waitress, busboy, electric, mortgage, taxes, and much more plus he is taking up a table to generate money for GOOD business.... he wants to make $ NOT LOSE $.
And they are the people that will keep coming in your establishment.... being complainers and non tippers until you kick them out...... because they know they're beating the system until you do, and then just go to the next place.:angry:
They go hand-in-hand and it's been proven over and over again.
They order their meal, meanwhile having a drink.... which they may complain about also. The service slow for whatever reason? So while they're waiting the waitress asked would you like to have another..... he says yes, but where is my meal. His meal comes and eats half and waves down the waitress and complains for whatever reason. She's polite and says let me get you another order..... the way most restaurants are because the customer is always right. He finishes his meal and leaves no tip.... even if it was excellent he still would not leave a tip. So who loses..... the waitress, the owner..FOOD COST meanwhile still having to pay his Cooks, waitress, busboy, electric, mortgage, taxes, and much more plus he is taking up a table to generate money for GOOD business.... he wants to make $ NOT LOSE $.
And they are the people that will keep coming in your establishment.... being complainers and non tippers until you kick them out...... because they know they're beating the system until you do, and then just go to the next place.:angry:
well I just wanted to know the structure of the bill and the tip
but the tip has nothing to do with how good buisness is in general, or wether the waiters are being paid enough or the cooks are being paid enough, or what the profit margin is for the resturant. If I have a problem with the quality of the meal and or the price...I just wont come back.. There are many places to eat. I like to leave a tip....but if it is already included, i may not want to leave another.....in any case for someone like me, how would I EVEN know if the price was decent....10% either way on the price of an entre, would go un noticed by me probably. And until i can read spanish well, i doubt I will ever scrutinize the total bill.
I have looked at the major items once or twice...but generally just look at the total. except for one meal( at the resturant in the Almirante hotel) they all have been DEALS. It is cheap to eat out in the DR!!!!!
and even if the food is bad, a waiter and especially a waitress, that smilesa nd talks to me, will always get a good tip. I like to make their day.
It is not like i eat out every single day.
so to retrace some steps.... the 10% tip that on the bill and and is there by LAW...goes to the OWNER to help REIMBURSE him what he has to pay the waiters?.....even if he pays crap to them in the first place
Or is supposed to get split up with the staff?
or the owner can do what he wants with it?.
do many of you go to resturants where that 10% is NOT on the bill anywhere?
thanks...bob
but the tip has nothing to do with how good buisness is in general, or wether the waiters are being paid enough or the cooks are being paid enough, or what the profit margin is for the resturant. If I have a problem with the quality of the meal and or the price...I just wont come back.. There are many places to eat. I like to leave a tip....but if it is already included, i may not want to leave another.....in any case for someone like me, how would I EVEN know if the price was decent....10% either way on the price of an entre, would go un noticed by me probably. And until i can read spanish well, i doubt I will ever scrutinize the total bill.
I have looked at the major items once or twice...but generally just look at the total. except for one meal( at the resturant in the Almirante hotel) they all have been DEALS. It is cheap to eat out in the DR!!!!!
and even if the food is bad, a waiter and especially a waitress, that smilesa nd talks to me, will always get a good tip. I like to make their day.
It is not like i eat out every single day.
so to retrace some steps.... the 10% tip that on the bill and and is there by LAW...goes to the OWNER to help REIMBURSE him what he has to pay the waiters?.....even if he pays crap to them in the first place
Or is supposed to get split up with the staff?
or the owner can do what he wants with it?.
do many of you go to resturants where that 10% is NOT on the bill anywhere?
thanks...bob
Bob, as I tried to explain in my first post this is how it is treated:
"1. DR law states that the 16% ITBIS and the 10% service tax be DISPLAYED on the bill. Many restaurants don't display it and supposedly include it in the price. Fact is, many restaurants doing this are not paying taxes nor giving the 10% to the staff. However, with increasing computerization of the government's tax system, it is becomming more difficult to evade paying taxes.
2. Regarding the 10%, the staff has the option of working ONLY for the 10% which is split up at the end of the month among ALL the staff, kitchen help included, or of accepting a fixed salary (usually higher than minimum wage for restaurant workers) plus WHATEVER TIPS ARE LEFT ON THE TABLE. In large restaurants with high turnover, splitting the 10% pays them a fair wage. In many small restaurants with limited clientel, they would starve if they worked for only the 10%.
As a restaurant owner, I have the option of offering them either salary plan. In almost 20 years of operation we've not had ONE staff member opt for splitting the 10% as they prefer the security of a fixed income plus tips.
We use the 10% to help pay their salaries as intended by law. Also, let me point out that in many small hotel/restaurant operations, the 10% does not even BEGIN to pay salary costs. It helps, and that's about it."
There is one other aspect of the 10% service charge that I did not touch upon in the above post. Some years ago, President Balaguer decreed that in order to give the poorer people a break, if they bought food from a TAKE-OUT counter the 10% tax would not apply. This has been interpreted to mean that only if service personell are involved in the delivery/serving of the food the tax would apply. I further intrepret it to mean in my own restaurant if you sit at the bar and order ONLY drinks served by me, then the 10% does not apply. NO service personell have been involved therefore the tax does not apply. However if you add food to your order, then it applies as a cook (a service person) has to prepare it. Not all restaurant or bars follow this, but it seems reasonable to me and that is how I treat it.
Probably the simplest explanation is that the 10% service fee is a way the the GOVERNMENT guarantees that a food server with get some sort of salary. Of course it is up to the restaurant owner to see that it goes to his employees. Legally he is bound to do that, but then this is the DR and many here seem to think they can do any durn thing they please as they are ABOVE the law (or bound by common decency for that matter).
"1. DR law states that the 16% ITBIS and the 10% service tax be DISPLAYED on the bill. Many restaurants don't display it and supposedly include it in the price. Fact is, many restaurants doing this are not paying taxes nor giving the 10% to the staff. However, with increasing computerization of the government's tax system, it is becomming more difficult to evade paying taxes.
2. Regarding the 10%, the staff has the option of working ONLY for the 10% which is split up at the end of the month among ALL the staff, kitchen help included, or of accepting a fixed salary (usually higher than minimum wage for restaurant workers) plus WHATEVER TIPS ARE LEFT ON THE TABLE. In large restaurants with high turnover, splitting the 10% pays them a fair wage. In many small restaurants with limited clientel, they would starve if they worked for only the 10%.
As a restaurant owner, I have the option of offering them either salary plan. In almost 20 years of operation we've not had ONE staff member opt for splitting the 10% as they prefer the security of a fixed income plus tips.
We use the 10% to help pay their salaries as intended by law. Also, let me point out that in many small hotel/restaurant operations, the 10% does not even BEGIN to pay salary costs. It helps, and that's about it."
There is one other aspect of the 10% service charge that I did not touch upon in the above post. Some years ago, President Balaguer decreed that in order to give the poorer people a break, if they bought food from a TAKE-OUT counter the 10% tax would not apply. This has been interpreted to mean that only if service personell are involved in the delivery/serving of the food the tax would apply. I further intrepret it to mean in my own restaurant if you sit at the bar and order ONLY drinks served by me, then the 10% does not apply. NO service personell have been involved therefore the tax does not apply. However if you add food to your order, then it applies as a cook (a service person) has to prepare it. Not all restaurant or bars follow this, but it seems reasonable to me and that is how I treat it.
Probably the simplest explanation is that the 10% service fee is a way the the GOVERNMENT guarantees that a food server with get some sort of salary. Of course it is up to the restaurant owner to see that it goes to his employees. Legally he is bound to do that, but then this is the DR and many here seem to think they can do any durn thing they please as they are ABOVE the law (or bound by common decency for that matter).
laurapasinifan said:
Number one.... you are always helpful to provide information for others.
As far as tax on the bill..... I do not speak Spanish nonetheless read it.
But I do know about restaurants and I will tell you this..... you and your girlfriend must go to the golden fish.... English meaning. Don't even look at the price and just order.They have decent food and I think you and your girlfriend will enjoy it. Does it really matter what food costs when you're out for an evening and enjoying yourself?
I go to this place every night when I'm there and I enjoy it, and I don't care if it's a thousand pesos or 6000 pesos, and i get a late-night snack from AHI-BAR for a nightcap after a couple cold ones.
I would suggest tipping on the total bill,but that's me.
BTW.... if you know some young kids in the area that wants to help in the cleanup..... I have a bag for them.
Ok I think I am finally have a clearer picture...I got more info that i needed, but thats good. I would add from my view. it appears as if the customer and the goverment are paying the salary of most resturant workers.... thus it would seem that the resturant owner isnt paying much if ANY of his workers salary......
what a deal for the owner
dont come at me mad Andy... thats just the way i see it based on what i have learned here.
the goverment has stepped in and asked the customer to pay salaries..... and then they get regular table tips as well.........if the owner pockets the 10%, and then pays a salary...it is the similar to the 10% going to workers....if he pays a higher than standard wage?????? then maybe he pays some from his pocket
if he is doing a fantastic buisness....he may EVEN BE MAKING money with the 10%... and paying his employees a standard wage , that in reality, BECAUSE of good buisness...is less than the what the 10% generates
of course it is dynamic, and depends on the owner, how much he likes the staff, and wants to keep them happy or at least keep them....
this is certainly a strange set up........
in any case thanks for the info Andy... and i hope buisness is good for you
bob
what a deal for the owner
dont come at me mad Andy... thats just the way i see it based on what i have learned here.
the goverment has stepped in and asked the customer to pay salaries..... and then they get regular table tips as well.........if the owner pockets the 10%, and then pays a salary...it is the similar to the 10% going to workers....if he pays a higher than standard wage?????? then maybe he pays some from his pocket
if he is doing a fantastic buisness....he may EVEN BE MAKING money with the 10%... and paying his employees a standard wage , that in reality, BECAUSE of good buisness...is less than the what the 10% generates
of course it is dynamic, and depends on the owner, how much he likes the staff, and wants to keep them happy or at least keep them....
this is certainly a strange set up........
in any case thanks for the info Andy... and i hope buisness is good for you
bob
Hi Bob, no I'm not angry with you. However since as a restaurant owner who is just following the law I seem to be cast in the light of someone who is beating the system and making a killing, let me assure you that the 10% service we charge hardly pays the monthly salary of ONE WAITRESS, much less the 4 of them we have. Remember we are usually open from 8am until after 10pm and it takes 4 girls to keep us staffed even though we have very little daytime business other than breakfast. And by the way, compared to other local hotels and restaurants, our staff is paid more and make greater tips. The extra pay comes from MY pocket, not yours.
So let's get the record straight. All this 10% I'm collecting is hardly worth it. As I said earlier, if I didn't have that, I'd just add it back on to the customer's cost of the meal as I have food expenses to meet, salaries to pay and a myriad of other expenses I face while trying to earn a reasonable profit. Regardless, the customer is going to bear the cost of all this, one way or another. The customer ALWAYS pays,...in ANY business. And when you view the 10% as simply a government's attempt at insuring a worker's salary (however misguided it may seem), it doesn't seem such an imposition at all.
So please tip your waitress, room maid, bartender or anyone else who goes out of their way to please you. They work hard to earn it.
So let's get the record straight. All this 10% I'm collecting is hardly worth it. As I said earlier, if I didn't have that, I'd just add it back on to the customer's cost of the meal as I have food expenses to meet, salaries to pay and a myriad of other expenses I face while trying to earn a reasonable profit. Regardless, the customer is going to bear the cost of all this, one way or another. The customer ALWAYS pays,...in ANY business. And when you view the 10% as simply a government's attempt at insuring a worker's salary (however misguided it may seem), it doesn't seem such an imposition at all.
So please tip your waitress, room maid, bartender or anyone else who goes out of their way to please you. They work hard to earn it.
Howmar,
What I gross a month is NONE of your business but I can assure you with the lack of tourism the north coast has been experiencing it's nothing like you are alluding to. Read my lips: As I said, the 10% we charge covers the cost of ONE girl for a month. The other three come from profit.
What I gross a month is NONE of your business but I can assure you with the lack of tourism the north coast has been experiencing it's nothing like you are alluding to. Read my lips: As I said, the 10% we charge covers the cost of ONE girl for a month. The other three come from profit.
I didn't bring up any figures until you did. If you don't want a point challenged, be sure it has some basis in logic. You stated that the 10% added to your checks doesn't cover one waitress. Maybe what you meant to say is the 10% of your gross business that you report doesn't cover one waitress?Andy B said:
BTW, as a retired owner/operator of a fairly successful resort restaurant in the US, I do have an appreciation of the business and can see your side of it. Just don't try to dazzle me with BS.