Opinions on this article?

[Chirimoya]

Someone said, "if you look for it, you'll find it".

She is a Professional writer of sexist and racial issues.

If those didn't exist, she's be out of a "job".

My point is that professional victims have a vested interest in the perpetuation of those issues.

Would you also make that accusation about someone who writes and campaigns against say, child abuse? Or just the ones who write about the causes you disagree with?
My point would be that the issues do exist, and having experienced them first hand she has the right to write about them.

 

[cobraboy]

Would you also make that accusation about someone who writes and campaigns against say, child abuse? Or just the ones who write about the causes you disagree with?
My point would be that the issues do exist, and having experienced them first hand she has the right to write about them.

Hey, agree with her all you want.

She certainly has the right to write about purple spotted cows if she wants. Even if they don't exist except in her imagination.

My point is there are professional victim industries, and she seems part of it. Many are. And like any industry, it's in their best interests to perpetuate it. That's all.

I never said the world is all peaches and cream. I am fully aware it's a pretty brutal, ugly place; I just choose to go where my life in more enjoyable, and I am more readily accepted. Hey, call me selfish.

If I wanted to experience racism, I'd just have to walk into a local club in the black ghetto here in Tampa alone at 11pm on Friday night. But I doubt the folks there would consider themselves racists.

One knife. Two blades. Racism is always the ~other~ guys problem, not mine.

 

[Chirimoya]

For many people like her the shock is that this should happen on a Caribbean island. Naive, maybe. Ignorant, even. But I've heard this before from black visitors to the DR and other Caribbean countries. They think they're going to feel 'at home' at last, being in the majority rather than the minority. Then they encounter all these more overt racist attitudes, which, BTW are voiced by people of all colours in the DR.

So, cobraboy, it's likely that she, like you, had chosen to go somewhere where she thought her life would be enjoyable and where she'd be more readily accepted, and the fact that her assumptions were overturned is what inspired the article.

Try as I have, I can't unravel the contradiction between 'the world is not peaches and cream' and the 'purple spotted cows'. Either it is real or it isn't.

She and all the people who've had stuff like this happen to them are not under some sort of collective delusion. Some choose to accept, others choose to fight against it. If it was something that affected you, maybe you would too.

 

[cobraboy]

Try as I have, I can't unravel the contradiction between 'the world is not peaches and cream' and the 'purple spotted cows'. Either it is real or it isn't.

I suggest you read the Allegory of the Cave in Plato's Republic. Things are not always as they seem.

-OR-

The John Godfrey Saxe poem, The Elephant and the Blind Men:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind


The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
?God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!?


The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, ?Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ?tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!?


The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
?I see,? quoth he, ?the Elephant
Is very like a snake!?


The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
?What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,? quoth he;
? ?Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!?


The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: ?E?en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!?


The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
?I see,? quoth he, ?the Elephant
Is very like a rope!?


And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:


So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!


My grandmother taught me something at a very early age, that I effort to live by daily (but being weak of human flesh, I often fail): "Expect nothing, and you won't be disappointed."

One who sees racism everywhere they look will find...surprise...racism.

One who finds beauty everywhere they look will find...surprise...beauty.

Life's choices. I hope folks choose wisely.

 

[Rick Snyder]

It is very apparent that the author of the article in the OP considers herself part of the “oppressed people” as stated in the following quote, “Through these similarities I realized that in many ways all oppressed people have to fight the same patterns of self-hatred and confusion as we do in the United States”. You can not walk through the world of life in the commensurate state of being “oppressed”. Her pertinacious belief that everyone was and is out to get her was very evident in her article. She paints with a very broad brush as the article was written about the “Dominican Republic” but she fails to state if she experienced these perverse reactions outside of Santiago.

I think it is also important to point out that this woman, after a month and a half of “many nights in a dark corner”, then realizing what the “problem” was and then being told by all the host mothers what she needed to do to correct the “problem” still failed to act on it.

“all the host mothers constantly told me how beautiful I could look if only I would fix (read: perm) my hair”

To intercalate your being with that which you know from experience brings about repugnancies from some people only causes you to derogate your character unless you are a glutton for punishment or just enjoy carrying a big chip on your shoulder as is evident from her following statement;
“I do not perm my hair and often dress in African-influenced styles. Because of this, the racism I experience in any country, including the United States, is often more intense than that experienced by other African Americans”

The fact that she stated that many of her "sisters", after having visited here, saw none of what she described which also indicates an axe to grind.

That was my take on it.

Rick

 

[qgrande]

One who sees racism everywhere they look will find...surprise...racism.

One who finds beauty everywhere they look will find...surprise...beauty.

Life's choices. I hope folks choose wisely.

You put a lot of stress on choice and the ability to avoid. In many cases racism is something people do not find because they were looking for it, but something very real, and also something people do not always have the opportuniity to avoid. I do agree with you that probably this lady did not fully grasp the complexity of Dominican society and relied on her US perspective to interpret what she saw and experienced. That does not mean she did not had very real racially offensive experiences. You can critique her for not trying all to fully understand the Dominican background to this, not for looking for racism when she describes some very concrete examples.

 

[cobraboy]

You can critique her for not trying all to fully understand the Dominican background to this, not for looking for racism when she describes some very concrete examples.

Pretty clear to me she was itchin' to find a good case of racism.

That's her job. That's how she makes her money. That is how she visions her life, her place in humanity. That's her "parachute".

Hey, but what the heck do I know? I'm a southern male WASP. I've been told I'm the oppressor all my life.

 

[Chirimoya]

cobraboy, you're not being consistent. The allegory and the poem make the point about perception and interpretation. I get that. I don't get the vigour with which you dismiss this woman's experience as solely a product of her inferiority complex (which I, along with most here, agree that she suffers from).

Please look at it in context, and give my previous posts more than a quick glance. I and others are telling you that we have definitely seen this sort of stuff happen.

It jumps out at you from all angles in the DR, whether you look for it or not.

Just one example. Sooner or later, while (to paraphrase you again) choosing to go somewhere enjoyable and where you expect to be accepted, you'll try to get into a nightclub/restaurant with a dark-skinned friend only to be told that sorry, it's a private party. This is routine in the DR. It's happened to me, and to many people that I know.

Will you pretend it didn't happen or just shrug it off as the way things are in the DR? Isn't that moral relativism at its worst?

 

[cobraboy]

cobraboy, you're not being consistent.

Why? Because I'm not dripping with admiration for this writer?

Did I dismiss her as a liar?

No.

Did I shrug her off?

No.

Did I say racism (or any other "ism") doesn't exist, especially in the DR?

No.

Do I think she's got an agenda?

Yes.

Do I have sympathy for her encounters after being told often *why* she's being treated as she was?

No.

My simple point is that if you go looking for racism you can find it. What can you do about it? Beyond your personal behavior, not much.

Find a country where "ism's" don't exist.

You can't.

Find a point in human history where "ism's" didn't exist.

You can't.

Find a time or place where the brotherhood of man treated each other in a perfect egalitarian way.

You can't.

It's an imperfect world populated by imperfect people. Get used to it and deal with it.

What this woman wrote should not be a revelation to anyone. Man treats man rather poorly. Always has, most likely always will.

All you can do is choose and control your own behavior.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

Peace starts with what YOU do as a person. Lead by example. And quit worrying so much about the other guys' behavior.

IMNSHO, she's a Professional Victim, and a damn good one at that.

I own a restaurant/bar in Tampa. I needed a part-time cook. I had two applicants: a 21 y.o. white kid adorned with tattoos and piercing with 3 years experience, and a very heavy but clean cut 30 y.o. black guy with barely 3 months experience. I hired the black guy. I called the white guy and told him I filled the position with someone else. He asked why, since he had all the experience. I told him because he looked like a freak; he needed to clean up if he wanted to be taken seriously. Am I a "pierce/tattoo-ist"? No. He presented himself in a particular way, and I responded to it. That gal could learn a few things about people and why they respond to you.

 

[Chirimoya]

Relax, no-one asked you to worship at her feet. :cheeky:

It's finally penetrated my thick skull that you acknowledge that she was conveying a fair depiction of certain aspects of people's attitudes here.

Where we differ is I still don't think she hoped or expected to find what she did, and that's why IMVHO it was an interesting experience to read about.

Also, all this "it doesn't just happen here/now" stuff sounds remarkably like what we hear from certain Dominicans who can't take criticism about their country. I know it doesn't only happen here. I know other countries have flaws. I also enjoy reading about other countries and their quirks.

But this is a DR board and the DR's flaws (and its assets for that matter) have certain characteristics that many of us who care about it find interesting to read about.

I'm still left wondering what you would think and feel if presented with the nightclub scenario I described.

 

[cobraboy]

I'm still left wondering what you would think and feel if presented with the nightclub scenario I described.

You mean like my black GF back in college? The professors daughter?

You assume too much.

CB out.

 

[Chirimoya]

I assume nothing. I'd still like to hear.

 

[NALs]

For many people like her the shock is that this should happen on a Caribbean island. Naive, maybe. Ignorant, even. But I've heard this before from black visitors to the DR and other Caribbean countries. They think they're going to feel 'at home' at last, being in the majority rather than the minority. Then they encounter all these more overt racist attitudes, which, BTW are voiced by people of all colours in the DR.

So, cobraboy, it's likely that she, like you, had chosen to go somewhere where she thought her life would be enjoyable and where she'd be more readily accepted, and the fact that her assumptions were overturned is what inspired the article.

Try as I have, I can't unravel the contradiction between 'the world is not peaches and cream' and the 'purple spotted cows'. Either it is real or it isn't.

She and all the people who've had stuff like this happen to them are not under some sort of collective delusion. Some choose to accept, others choose to fight against it. If it was something that affected you, maybe you would too.

At home?

Her home is the USA. If she expects to feel at home anywhere else, then she and all others who think like her, will have a hard time as they travel around.

Does a white Spaniard feel "at home" among white Germans?

Does a black Nigerian feel "at home" in black Mozambique?

Does a muslim Saudi Arabian feel "at home" in muslim Malaysia?

Does a christian Australian feel "at home" among christian Greeks?

Common people, once you embark in traveling you must realize that you are not in Kansas anymore.

There is something called culture, national identity, different ways of life. People's physical appearances does not makes them just like you if they happen to look like you.

A person who lives like that is a racist in my book, because that person judges based on looks, on color, on race.

The people who are like you are those who think like you, regardless how they look like.

A wealthy black person has more things in common with other white wealthy people, than he/she does with poor black people. Don't believe this? Then why is there a class divide among all ethnic and racial groups?

The upper crust of each ethnic/racial group is often seen as disconnected to those of "their own" in the lower class levels.

I wonder why class cuts across all the superficial physical appearances?

Actually, I don't wonder, it's because race does not matter. Anyone who gives any other person the benefit of the doubt based on their physical appearance is a racist, regardless if they are white, black, mulatto, indian, you name it.

People find what they search for.... for this reason there are people that believe in God and those who don't! Both give you evidence and yet, you either see it or you don't.

It's the same with everything else in life.

-NALs

 

[Conchman]

This article was discussed (I am pretty sure it was on DR1) about 6 months ago and pretty much got the same responses. I wonder if someobody can find the thread.

 

[NALs]

Not long ago, I read an article about the issue of forgotten dreams people have that are brought back via hypnosis.

For years it was readily accepted that hypnosis helped people search for answers to their daily problems, such as why so and so is always nervous or why does so and so feels depressed, etc.

Well, some of the research that has been done on this lately has raised new concerns.

It turns out that many of the "lost" dreams of things that "happened" to a person during their childhood or in a previous time never happened at all. In fact, researchers have found that what hypnosis does to many people is create a false "dream" which is accepted by the person being hypnotized as reality or something that happened to them in the past to explain the present problems.

In essence, those people are seeing and believing things that never were there.

I am not saying racism does not exist, because it does.

What I am saying is how can a person be sure that a particular act was an act of racism and not something else?

Obviously, if a person calls you xyz, then ok, it's a racist act. However, if you dress a certain way, act a certain way, and give a certain aura that is not common among the people around you, would you expect people to treat you like everybody else or different?

Even more important, how can we be sure that your interpretation of your sorrounding is accurate, instead of being distorted by preconceived notion you may have towards anything?

For example, I used to think that Americans did not like me. Why? You can walk past 100 people and not one will say hi or smile at you or give you a hint that they recognize your existence.

I was even questioning if maybe I am dressing a certain way that may be offensive or intimidating. But, this could not be since I dress nicely.

I thought maybe it had to do with the way I look, but I have an average look and fit well in most American settings.

I thought maybe it was the way I walk, but I don't walk funny.

I thought many things and then it hit me! Americans are individualistic and often times they don't say hi or smile or give anyone an acknowledgement that they recognize your existence as long as you are just some anonymous random person walking by them.

Of course, if they know you, then Americans are as warm as anybody, smiling, giving you a big "hi", and being very friendly.

All this time, I was seeing something that was not there, but rather something that existed in my mind and that alone filter my interpretation of this world to a point that everything I saw could have been categorized as racism or classism or gender bias or anything else in action.

I'm not saying racism does not exist, but I am saying how can a person be sure another person says, does something because they are racist? Except on the most obvious cases, I don't see how anyone can be 100% sure.

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

When I wrote about 'feeling at home' it was not so much with reference to this particular case. I remembered an English friend whose father was Jamaican, travelling to Jamaica for the first time at the age of 18. She expected one thing and got the total opposite. I know that her experience was not unique and I speculated that the writer of the article may have had similar notions.
Marcus Garvey considered Africa to be the ultimate homeland for the 'black diaspora' and some may also apply that to the Caribbean.

 

[NALs]

When I wrote about 'feeling at home' it was not so much with reference to this particular case. I remembered an English friend whose father was Jamaican, travelling to Jamaica for the first time at the age of 18. She expected one thing and got the total opposite. I know that her experience was not unique and I speculated that the writer of the article may have had similar notions.
Marcus Garvey considered Africa to be the ultimate homeland for the 'black diaspora' and some may also apply that to the Caribbean.

I can't remember who said the following quote, but it clearly evokes the theme in this thread:

"The reason people travel is to see that land that has ignited their imagination to create such pleasurable images and bring such urgency and desire to experience that place first hand.

Once you are there, you notice it was simply a dream".

Another quote, can't remember who said it:

"I wanted to visit Los Angeles. I wanted to see the Los Angeles of the movies, the Los Angeles of eternal beauty, the Los Angeles of beautiful weather, the Los Angeles of my dreams. Little did I know that it looked like New Jersey with palms." :surprised

-NALs

 

[macocael]

Hmmm, this raises some interesting points. I have thought alot about the differences in race relations between here and the US. I remember many years ago when my Brazilian girlfriend at the time remarked on the fact that in the States everyone seemed to live in a segregated fashion, sticking to their own kind (anyone who knows NY's nabes will readily assent to this), and I think to an extent she was on to something. The nature of slavery and the mixing of the races is somewhat different there as compared with these Caribbean isles and places like Brazil, where miscegenation is more common. here and in Brazil there are certainly white neighborhoods, but there appears to be much more mixing. I think it is hard for American academics exploring these themes down here to come to terms with the differences.

Certainly in DR we obviously live in a mulatto society. The son of a former Atty General here once remarked to me, "here we do not have discrimination, but we do have racism." If you think about that carefully, it kind of makes sense.

The woman who wrote this article came at this with her thesis clearly imprinted on her mind, but I still think she did a pretty good job detailing her examples. This year, for some odd reason, I have had several Afro American academic types pass through my house here while they conduct their research on Racism in DR. Most of them struck me as pretty clueless and very thesis-driven: it is partly the current nature of Academe and PC thinking in the States. The Dominican Republic has a very unique history of race relations, and one must be a patient reader of history to get at the truth of it.

But this is not to say that the author of this particular piece did not in fact find racism. Sure, if the hammer is your only tool, everything will look like a nail (love that quote cobraboy!), but some of them are in fact nails.

it does no good to skirt the issues raised by the piece, they exist. You may not like the fact that she is "a professional victim" and so on, but all of that is irrelevant if what she says in fact jives with reality down here, and it does.

Btw, NALS, you raise a very important point that has bedeviled many of the race/ethnicity academic theorists, and that is the concept of Class. Class is a category that often gets short shrifted in these discussions, but I happen to think it is more important than race or ethnicity.