President Abinader to host US Secretary of State at Presidential Palace

[bob saunders]

I think the problem is that we forget how easy it is for us to just present our passport (or EDL/TTC with neighbors) and get in to a lot of countries for business, vacation or even procure a short-term work permit in some cases. I agree with documented, vetted, entry but we need to be realistic about the fact that we've put up a lot of barriers to that actually being a viable or easily workable option.

Land ports are about the only places that someone that's working class or migrating for economic reasons can show up to and present themselves for review. Consulates work for narrowly-qualified individuals only. If we implemented a universally accepted form of ID that respected privacy while allowing for background checks, and entry was based on good behavior instead of financial standing or what country you were from that'd be a step in the direction you're looking for.

Before anyone says that someone poor would be a strain on social safety nets/healthcare, because that's what undocumented immigrants are, P, O, O, R; That's always been a lie used to manipulate both US and DR voters.

People who come to work in the US contribute but don't get the services, people who go to work in the DR spend quite a bit into the local economy for the rare use they might give the public health system which is NOT free. Yes, the stories about Haitian mothers just going in to the DR to get FREE ob/gyn services were demonstrably false: The numbers were exaggerated, they were charged for those services, and crossed over because the mortality rate in the DR is lower. In the DR even services that are supposed to be public aren't free, if you doubt that drop by a public hospital and find the cashier/insurance line and stand there for a few hours then get back to me.

Dominican Republic spent RD$1,068 Million on Haitian births in 2024

<p>Santo Domingo.- The Dominican Republic invested approximately RD$1,068,757,173 in childbirth and cesarean section procedures for 32,967 Haitian mothers who gave birth in public hospitals in 2024, based on an average cost of RD$32,419 per delivery, according to international studies. According...

dominicantoday.com

 

[IslandCabby]

Do you have any links/proof for this? My SIL is an OBGYN with two office locations, one in Santo Domingo and one in the "campo". She tells a much different story than what you posted.

I might miss something in my answer so apologies ahead of time. There are no "free" services in the Dominican health care system. You either pay with cash, private insurance, public contributive insurance (you and your employer pay) or public subsidized insurance (only given to Dominicans, albeit it's supposed to be for poor or informally employed Dominicans and gets abused sometimes.) There has always been a misconception which might stem from peoples unfamiliarity with the difference between the public health services which are NOT free, subsidized SENASA which is only given to Dominicans, and charity health care centers or sporadic health drives (think UNICEF or a missionary clinic, Doctors without Borders, etc.). Links will rarely be available because the articles generated are done so by the people that drive this narrative and basically copied word for word into the local newspapers, which are basically mouthpieces for political parties in the DR. All major parties have used this or something similar as a talking point, when it comes to Haitians there really isn't any opposing viewpoint in DR politics. My proof is having lived in the DR off and on for decades, having both business and informal employees who use the system and an extended family with a lot of doctors.

 

[IslandCabby]

You mean all those births to Haitian mothers in the DR were paid for by the mother/father/sister/brother/cousin family member or a friend. As someone who has a doctor in the system, I can tell you that they indeed are a strain on social safety nets because the government in large part is utilizing its resources to pay for them and footing the bill.

As to the US side of the illegal equation that "people who come to work in the US contribute but don't get the services," just in healthcare alone over the last administration;

CBO: Medicaid Spending on Illegal Aliens Has Cost Taxpayers over $16.2 Billion Under Open Border Czar Harris | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

And this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

I would venture amongst other agenda items that illegal immigration (both in the DR and the US) was front and center for discussion by Rubio and Abinader as was likely a waiver for the DR on President Trump's suspension of foreign aid.

And although it should not need to be mentioned, I doubt either is against legal immigration.

Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

I know it's what is said, and there is even data out there that purports to back it up, but if you look at it closely you'll notice it's an estimate based on a non-verified statement. What I am saying is that it is not true. That's the unfortunate reality of Dominican news when it comes to any issue that's political.

On the US side, illegal aliens don't get Medicaid. You either pay cash or you have a "Gold Card" type, usually from some religious or charity organization, "insurance" card that specific local health care organizations will accept and then bill that church or charity.

Emergency medical care, and by that I do mean Emergency room visits, are usually absorbed by the Hospital/HMO for non-billable patients like undocumented immigrants unless they can get re-imbursed by Emergency Medicaid and that's on a "this patient was going to die if left untreated" basis and only because it's part of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act which makes it illegal to refuse emergency care based on legal status.

Individual states might have state-funded protections for pregnant women, minors and seniors, but that's not Medicaid. Those programs are funded from sales taxes so you can try a point there but those immigrants buy and pay sales tax too so...

Medicaid is only available to immigrants that are either permanent residents or refugees/asylees/humanitarian visa holders (still legal) and in very limited cases, DACA recipients, that's it. Please feel free to verify that statement.

The issue of immigrants, particularly illegal ones, using up local resources is a political trope, it has never been true. Coming from a family that's mostly in healthcare and me being in outsourcing I got involved in specifically providing services to healthcare organizations across the US and billing is one of the many tasks we handle. That's my basis.

 

[Big]

I think the problem is that we forget how easy it is for us to just present our passport (or EDL/TTC with neighbors) and get in to a lot of countries for business, vacation or even procure a short-term work permit in some cases. I agree with documented, vetted, entry but we need to be realistic about the fact that we've put up a lot of barriers to that actually being a viable or easily workable option.

Land ports are about the only places that someone that's working class or migrating for economic reasons can show up to and present themselves for review. Consulates work for narrowly-qualified individuals only. If we implemented a universally accepted form of ID that respected privacy while allowing for background checks, and entry was based on good behavior instead of financial standing or what country you were from that'd be a step in the direction you're looking for.

Before anyone says that someone poor would be a strain on social safety nets/healthcare, because that's what undocumented immigrants are, P, O, O, R; That's always been a lie used to manipulate both US and DR voters.

People who come to work in the US contribute but don't get the services, people who go to work in the DR spend quite a bit into the local economy for the rare use they might give the public health system which is NOT free. Yes, the stories about Haitian mothers just going in to the DR to get FREE ob/gyn services were demonstrably false: The numbers were exaggerated, they were charged for those services, and crossed over because the mortality rate in the DR is lower. In the DR even services that are supposed to be public aren't free, if you doubt that drop by a public hospital and find the cashier/insurance line and stand there for a few hours then get back to me.

A short stint in the service would have done you wonders.

 

[IslandCabby]

Dominican Republic spent RD$1,068 Million on Haitian births in 2024

<p>Santo Domingo.- The Dominican Republic invested approximately RD$1,068,757,173 in childbirth and cesarean section procedures for 32,967 Haitian mothers who gave birth in public hospitals in 2024, based on an average cost of RD$32,419 per delivery, according to international studies. According...

dominicantoday.com

Hi Bob, I'm answering a few posts so like I said further down, or up at the time of responding, forgive me if I miss something.

That data was not true to begin with. It was based on a repeated statement that started about 14 or 15 years ago and keeps getting trotted out every few years. People in the DR might not like seeing Haitians in those hospitals, but that doesn't translate to them actually getting a free ride.

While I agree that the Public Health Care system in the Dominican Republic is grossly mismanaged, the issue isn't the number of Haitian users vs Dominican users. It's the theft and willful sabotage of services, staffing and facilities that keeps the chaos going so that there can continue to be 3rd parties benefitting from it.

There is also the fact that in the DR that is supposed to be a public good or right is seen as a privilege that the undeserving lazy poor or immigrants (whoever the expedient enemy is at the time) are consuming and creating an undue burden on. The truth is that for all the subsidies that go into the public health care system, most of it doesn't get to and has nothing to do with patient care. Patients have to pay for themselves or have a family member come in and pay to get them released from these hospitals/clinic. If you want something closer to home, just look for the tourist cases you've seen here, where someone's stuck in a local hospital asking for help.

 

[keepcoming]

I know it's what is said, and there is even data out there that purports to back it up, but if you look at it closely you'll notice it's an estimate based on a non-verified statement. What I am saying is that it is not true. That's the unfortunate reality of Dominican news when it comes to any issue that's political.

On the US side, illegal aliens don't get Medicaid. You either pay cash or you have a "Gold Card" type, usually from some religious or charity organization, "insurance" card that specific local health care organizations will accept and then bill that church or charity.

Emergency medical care, and by that I do mean Emergency room visits, are usually absorbed by the Hospital/HMO for non-billable patients like undocumented immigrants unless they can get re-imbursed by Emergency Medicaid and that's on a "this patient was going to die if left untreated" basis and only because it's part of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act which makes it illegal to refuse emergency care based on legal status.

Individual states might have state-funded protections for pregnant women, minors and seniors, but that's not Medicaid. Those programs are funded from sales taxes so you can try a point there but those immigrants buy and pay sales tax too so...

Medicaid is only available to immigrants that are either permanent residents or refugees/asylees/humanitarian visa holders (still legal) and in very limited cases, DACA recipients, that's it. Please feel free to verify that statement.

The issue of immigrants, particularly illegal ones, using up local resources is a political trope, it has never been true. Coming from a family that's mostly in healthcare and me being in outsourcing I got involved in specifically providing services to healthcare organizations across the US and billing is one of the many tasks we handle. That's my basis.

This is incorrect. If you are "connected" to healthcare then you know this: When one does not have access to healthcare due to no insurance/financial resources, many use the emergency room as their "doctor". Even for minor issues and because of EMTALA they cannot be turned away. This does use up local resources, contributes to overcrowding of emergency rooms, etc.. This issue also presents in the DR as well. Anyone who is in healthcare and understands the financial side of it, knows this. I have done medical billing for a long time, my family owned one of the larger medical billing companies in the US, so I am very familiar with this situation. But this is going off topic as this is not about the USA.

 

[keepcoming]

I might miss something in my answer so apologies ahead of time. There are no "free" services in the Dominican health care system. You either pay with cash, private insurance, public contributive insurance (you and your employer pay) or public subsidized insurance (only given to Dominicans, albeit it's supposed to be for poor or informally employed Dominicans and gets abused sometimes.) There has always been a misconception which might stem from peoples unfamiliarity with the difference between the public health services which are NOT free, subsidized SENASA which is only given to Dominicans, and charity health care centers or sporadic health drives (think UNICEF or a missionary clinic, Doctors without Borders, etc.). Links will rarely be available because the articles generated are done so by the people that drive this narrative and basically copied word for word into the local newspapers, which are basically mouthpieces for political parties in the DR. All major parties have used this or something similar as a talking point, when it comes to Haitians there really isn't any opposing viewpoint in DR politics. My proof is having lived in the DR off and on for decades, having both business and informal employees who use the system and an extended family with a lot of doctors.

But I see some of our posters here on this thread found links that would support the fact your comment about Haitian births in the DR is incorrect. If your saying something is not true, then please provide evidence that it is not. If it is just your opinion, then understandable.

 

[IslandCabby]

A short stint in the service would have done you wonders.

Actually being in the military would give you a much more realistic view of how the world works and what's just being used to manipulate. Ask anyone who's up BEFORE reveille, stood at parade for hours, sung each cadence, pointed a rifle at something other than a range target and learned what protecting really means and costs. Nevermind had the opportunity to step into civilian life and visit places you couldn't be paid to work/live in and see what real suffering and abuse of power look like.

 

[IslandCabby]

But I see some of our posters here on this thread found links that would support the fact your comment about Haitian births in the DR is incorrect. If your saying something is not true, then please provide evidence that it is not. If it is just your opinion, then understandable.

I understand, it's not my opinion, just an attempt at stating the reality vs the propaganda. What I specifically said was that those links are available specifically because a lot of content has been generated to support that initial statement. Trying to state otherwise in the DR, in fact saying anything particularly favorable about Haitians or negative about anti-Haitian sentiment or propaganda is career suicide for Dominican journalists. It's ingrained in the culture and education there and kept alive by people you'd be surprised to find are actual descendants of the wealthy landowners that fled to the Dominican side when the slaves revolted.

 

[IslandCabby]

This is incorrect. If you are "connected" to healthcare then you know this: When one does not have access to healthcare due to no insurance/financial resources, many use the emergency room as their "doctor". Even for minor issues and because of EMTALA they cannot be turned away. This does use up local resources, contributes to overcrowding of emergency rooms, etc.. This issue also presents in the DR as well. Anyone who is in healthcare and understands the financial side of it, knows this. I have done medical billing for a long time, my family owned one of the larger medical billing companies in the US, so I am very familiar with this situation. But this is going off topic as this is not about the USA.

I understand, I was attempting to show how this tends to apply across all countries. What I said about the US is that there is a mis-representation going on with undocumented immigrants being shown as benefitting from a system the rest of us pay into and they don't, when it's actually not true. Immigrants, undocumented or otherwise, tend to pay more into systems they don't have a right to period or right to yet than they get out of. And undocumented immigrants do not get direct Medicaid: Medicaid eligibility requires having a Social Security Number (SSN) or a qualifying immigration status, such as Temporary Protected Status (TPS), lawful permanent residency (green card), or certain visa categories. Billing Medicaid under EMTALA where the patient presented with a non-life threatening injury or condition will get your claim denied. I'll end my off-topic side-trip here.

 

[keepcoming]

I understand, it's not my opinion, just an attempt at stating the reality vs the propaganda. What I specifically said was that those links are available specifically because a lot of content has been generated to support that initial statement. Trying to state otherwise in the DR, in fact saying anything particularly favorable about Haitians or negative about anti-Haitian sentiment or propaganda is career suicide for Dominican journalists. It's ingrained in the culture and education there and kept alive by people you'd be surprised to find are actual descendants of the wealthy landowners that fled to the Dominican side when the slaves revolted.

I can go on the internet and find article after article that explains in detail about the effects it is causing on an already strained healthcare system in the DR. And these articles are written by Dominican journalists. I have been in the DR a very long time, since the late 80's, and I have never seen or known of a Dominican journalist who is afraid to state their opinion one way or another. Your posts are basically your opinion, nothing fact based. All of us have opinions, and I respect yours.

 

[bob saunders]

I understand, it's not my opinion, just an attempt at stating the reality vs the propaganda. What I specifically said was that those links are available specifically because a lot of content has been generated to support that initial statement. Trying to state otherwise in the DR, in fact saying anything particularly favorable about Haitians or negative about anti-Haitian sentiment or propaganda is career suicide for Dominican journalists. It's ingrained in the culture and education there and kept alive by people you'd be surprised to find are actual descendants of the wealthy landowners that fled to the Dominican side when the slaves revolted.

There are links from Haiti that more or less state the same as the Dominican government. Haitian blog and chats mention that the cost in Haiti for a birth is far more than the cost in the DR which is free other than what they pay the transporter.

 

[Big]

Actually being in the military would give you a much more realistic view of how the world works and what's just being used to manipulate. Ask anyone who's up BEFORE reveille, stood at parade for hours, sung each cadence, pointed a rifle at something other than a range target and learned what protecting really means and costs. Nevermind had the opportunity to step into civilian life and visit places you couldn't be paid to work/live in and see what real suffering and abuse of power look like.

I did my service, this is why I say you need a dose of reality. The D.R is under zero obligation to care for people that invade their homeland. They provide the very basic medical care which is what humanity requires. If they want a higher level of service, earn it!

 

[CristoRey]

Coming from a family that's mostly in healthcare and me being in outsourcing I got involved in specifically providing services to healthcare organizations across the US and billing is one of the many tasks we handle. That's my basis.

Interesting.
My sister-n-law recently became the new Director of one of the largest hospitals in northeast FL.

I myself have been working in the Outsourcing Industry down here in the DR for over a decade with Healthcare, Insurance and Telecommunications being my/ our main focus.

Although not a huge fan of politicians be them here or up north, when it comes to this country, I'm gonna side with the President of the Republic on this one.

 

[IslandCabby]

I can go on the internet and find article after article that explains in detail about the effects it is causing on an already strained healthcare system in the DR. And these articles are written by Dominican journalists. I have been in the DR a very long time, since the late 80's, and I have never seen or known of a Dominican journalist who is afraid to state their opinion one way or another. Your posts are basically your opinion, nothing fact based. All of us have opinions, and I respect yours.

Fine, respectfully, and I sincerely mean it, I give up. If you really believe that slightly more than 1 in 5 births in the entire Dominican Republic in 2024 was to a Haitian mother; Or to be more precise, on par with the entire record of births for the capital city of Santo Domingo. I can't really do much. Because that is what it would take for just the numbers data to be accurate, the cost is another story, you can find Intec's report on preventing teenage pregnancies and see where that estimated cost number came from.

 

[JD Jones]

Hi Bob, I'm answering a few posts so like I said further down, or up at the time of responding, forgive me if I miss something.

That data was not true to begin with. It was based on a repeated statement that started about 14 or 15 years ago and keeps getting trotted out every few years. People in the DR might not like seeing Haitians in those hospitals, but that doesn't translate to them actually getting a free ride.

While I agree that the Public Health Care system in the Dominican Republic is grossly mismanaged, the issue isn't the number of Haitian users vs Dominican users. It's the theft and willful sabotage of services, staffing and facilities that keeps the chaos going so that there can continue to be 3rd parties benefitting from it.

There is also the fact that in the DR that is supposed to be a public good or right is seen as a privilege that the undeserving lazy poor or immigrants (whoever the expedient enemy is at the time) are consuming and creating an undue burden on. The truth is that for all the subsidies that go into the public health care system, most of it doesn't get to and has nothing to do with patient care. Patients have to pay for themselves or have a family member come in and pay to get them released from these hospitals/clinic. If you want something closer to home, just look for the tourist cases you've seen here, where someone's stuck in a local hospital asking for help.

With all due respect, there are many clinics where pregnant Haitian women show up at the door ready to deliver. They are taken in, given medical assistance, then shortly after giving birth walk out the door with their baby.
They do not pay a cent for that.
No family members paying, no payment by the mother, no friends paying.. nobody pays anything.
No such thing as not allowing a Haitian woman with her baby to leave once they are able.
That is the main reason we are even discussing this mess.

 

[IslandCabby]

I did my service, this is why I say you need a dose of reality. The D.R is under zero obligation to care for people that invade their homeland. They provide the very basic medical care which is what humanity requires. If they want a higher level of service, earn it!

Then you know what an invasion actually looks like. Civilians have been conditioned to equate foreigners/immigrants/illegal immigrants to invaders. One's a hostile armed force, the other's a guy (quantity aside) who wouldn't qualify for a work, investment or green card lottery visa if we're using the US, not the same.

 

[keepcoming]

With all due respect, there are many clinics where pregnant Haitian women show up at the door ready to deliver. They are taken in, given medical assistance, then shortly after giving birth walk out the door with their baby.
They do not pay a cent for that.
No family members paying, no payment by the mother, no friends paying.. nobody pays anything.
No such thing as not allowing a Haitian woman with her baby to leave once they are able.
That is the main reason we are even discussing this mess.

I cannot tell you how many times in the middle of the night someone would come to my sister in-laws house, her having to get up to go to the local clinic. She does not get paid; the clinic does not get paid. She would often go to the house to check on the women, make sure everything is ok after they have given birth. They never held the women "hostage" for payment. My SIL would always say "what can you do, that is how it is".