Progress Payments on new Construction

[jojo2130]

Hello ,
We are currently planning a small condominium project and I am a little bit unsure about how we can arrange the progress payments from our clients to us in D.R. . Several clients have agreed to simply pay via a contract that we have created here into my Lawyers trust account. But we also have the issue of governing laws and I feel a little insecure about payment releases .

What we thought about was to have a Lawyer in DR that would take money in trust from a Lawyer in Canada. The Lawyer in Canada would represent the interests of their client here and the Lawyer in DR Would represent the interests of my firm and would report and request progress payments from the Canadian Lawyer. Thus the 2 lawyers would require a relationship.

Deposits would be non Refundable as would any progress payments made .

Will this work ?

 

[rellosk]

I'm amazed that you are "currently planning a small condominium project" in a foreign country and you are looking for advice on a message board instead of from a lawyer. If I was planning such a project, I would have contracted both a lawyer in Canada (where you are collecting money from investors) and in the DR (where there could be infinite unknown pitfalls). But then again, you've probably done this elsewhere and already have some experience.

 

[jojo2130]

I'm amazed that you are "currently planning a small condominium project" in a foreign country and you are looking for advice on a message board instead of from a lawyer. If I was planning such a project, I would have contracted both a lawyer in Canada (where you are collecting money from investors) and in the DR (where there could be infinite unknown pitfalls). But then again, you've probably done this elsewhere and already have some experience.

Please do not be so amazed.
I am simply looking for ideas based on other peoples experience. I have my own. And am very versed on dealing with lawyers and regulations. And I have done alot of research. Creating a link between the lawyers here (Small town Canada) and D R may have some pitfalls. I am trying to find out what others have done and how it worked for them.
And would appreciate ideas from someone with some experience in DR Specifically.
.
I thought that I posted Under LEGAL. Yes, Looked again , This is legal .

 

[J D Sauser]

haven't done it in the DR, but...

I have heard of lawyers in the DR "taking off" with some client's money.. I would be very carefull about having anybody handling my incoming money!
I don't know how save trust accounts are in the DR. While they sure are harshly governed by law in the states... a lawyer there could take the money and hit the road too... just maybe, he wouldn't get that far.

Anyaway, as a business man there are two or actually three worlds: YOURS, your client's and your vendor's. Yours comes first as far as you are concerned! So don't look for risk nor to provide for excessive security for the other two parties. I know I shouldn't say that... it could make me look bad, but it may change your point of view about the other two parties... because they think the same you should think.
What am I trying to say?
Make the rules!:

• YOU get an upfront payment from your customers (call them investors if it makes them happy), big enough so you can't possibly run in any cashflow problems until the project is finished and ready to be handed over to it's new owners. YOU get that into YOUR account and it may well be off shore (even of the DR's beautiful shores).
• YOU hold payments to your vendors, suppliers and builders as far down and back as possible, so you will really never run into any cash flow problems.
• You get all your money (cleared funds into YOUR account!) from your clients BEFORE or at the latest AT the moment that they get the title from you.
• But you DON'T pay all to your builders, vendors and suppliers until warranty time has elapsed succesfully (hold back) and any corrections claimed by your customers have been taken care of by them on their nickel.

That's YOUR general rule.
"They" will be well enough advised to try to press their general rules on you... builder wants as much money up front and no hold backs... buyer wants to pay only after bla, bla bla and hold back money on you or have certain amounts blocked in so'n'so's account until there's snow falling all over the DR in August...

Short? I would not accept that clients pay into that or any other escrow account unless these are only preliminary deposit moneys on a buying offer until the offer is accepted... which means "they" deposit at their own risk and so only until you accpt the offer that will honor YOUR general rules of business.

I don't want to sound like a hard ball player (I'm not) but just try to buy a condo and you will find yourself confronted to these rules.

... J-D.

 

[jojo2130]

I have heard of lawyers in the DR "taking off" with some client's money.. I would be very carefull about having anybody handling my incoming money!
I don't know how save trust accounts are in the DR. While they sure are harshly governed by law in the states... a lawyer there could take the money and hit the road too... just maybe, he wouldn't get that far.

Anyaway, as a business man there are two or actually three worlds: YOURS, your client's and your vendor's. Yours comes first as far as you are concerned! So don't look for risk nor to provide for excessive security for the other two parties. I know I shouldn't say that... it could make me look bad, but it may change your point of view about the other two parties... because they think the same you should think.
What am I trying to say?
Make the rules!:

• YOU get an upfront payment from your customers (call them investors if it makes them happy), big enough so you can't possibly run in any cashflow problems until the project is finished and ready to be handed over to it's new owners. YOU get that into YOUR account and it may well be off shore (even of the DR's beautiful shores).
• YOU hold payments to your vendors, suppliers and builders as far down and back as possible, so you will really never run into any cash flow problems.
• You get all your money (cleared funds into YOUR account!) from your clients BEFORE or at the latest AT the moment that they get the title from you.
• But you DON'T pay all to your builders, vendors and suppliers until warranty time has elapsed succesfully (hold back) and any corrections claimed by your customers have been taken care of by them on their nickel.

That's YOUR general rule.
"They" will be well enough advised to try to press their general rules on you... builder wants as much money up front and no hold backs... buyer wants to pay only after bla, bla bla and hold back money on you or have certain amounts blocked in so'n'so's account until there's snow falling all over the DR in August...

Short? I would not accept that clients pay into that or any other escrow account unless these are only preliminary deposit moneys on a buying offer until the offer is accepted... which means "they" deposit at their own risk and so only until you accpt the offer that will honor YOUR general rules of business.

I don't want to sound like a hard ball player (I'm not) but just try to buy a condo and you will find yourself confronted to these rules.

... J-D.

Thank you JD , I appreciate your advice very much .

I agree, I will use either Mr Guzman or equal .

I also agree that it is my hide that is on the line but I want to ensure safe and pleasant transactions for everyone.

If I understand correctly you are saying to market as "an investment project" rather than as condominium owners?

I have been involved in international business in Eastern europe in the past and I know that there are marked differences between our ways in Canada and America and their ways there but the Polish would never comply (At that time) to "our ways" in many cases.

I have also been involved in some construction here in Canada and I know well how our systems work. I guess that I am trying to apply our way of doing things to this project. I mean the basic philosophy here is "owners finance" though progress payments. Visa via trust accounts.

I would take a 50% NON REFUNDABLE Deposit for any purchases and after that would take progress payments approved by the 2 lawyers. The buyers that are lined up are cash buyers. But I have talked to several others that have backed out mainly because of the financial insecurity. After the initial deposit (the 50% Deposit) I would care less if they backed out ! I can resell quickly . I think that another key point would be not to take on too much at a time . As these are intended to be seperate buildings , I would be able to self finance any problems such as this until the units are resold. I guess that basically that means that the only difference is the extra lawyer involved. It will be up to any perspective buyers to do their due diligence. I would want to have a very reputable DR lawyer and I will show them as best I can that this is an honest project with every intention to deliver a completed Condo. With clear title .

Cash Movement
"Investor Deposits 90-100% with Lawyer in Canada. Construction schedule is submitted 50% Deposit transferred to Lawyer in D R , Construction starts per Schedule , Monthly Progress reports are submitted and Money is transferred after approval and acceptance. Title is provided at final "turnover" and payment. Suppliers are paid .

Do you think that I am way off base here ?


AS far as paying suppliers, I agree, I dont think that there will be any D & B's on me ! LOL But I also want to ensure that 4 "TIGRES" Don't come walking in my door and break my legs .


Thanks again for your advice.

Joe

 

[HOWMAR]

Thank you JD , I appreciate your advice very much .

I agree, I will use either Mr Guzman or equal .

I also agree that it is my hide that is on the line but I want to ensure safe and pleasant transactions for everyone.

If I understand correctly you are saying to market as "an investment project" rather than as condominium owners?

I have been involved in international business in Eastern europe in the past and I know that there are marked differences between our ways in Canada and America and their ways there but the Polish would never comply (At that time) to "our ways" in many cases.

I have also been involved in some construction here in Canada and I know well how our systems work. I guess that I am trying to apply our way of doing things to this project. I mean the basic philosophy here is "owners finance" though progress payments. Visa via trust accounts.

I would take a 50% NON REFUNDABLE Deposit for any purchases and after that would take progress payments approved by the 2 lawyers. The buyers that are lined up are cash buyers. But I have talked to several others that have backed out mainly because of the financial insecurity. After the initial deposit (the 50% Deposit) I would care less if they backed out ! I can resell quickly . I think that another key point would be not to take on too much at a time . As these are intended to be seperate buildings , I would be able to self finance any problems such as this until the units are resold. I guess that basically that means that the only difference is the extra lawyer involved. It will be up to any perspective buyers to do their due diligence. I would want to have a very reputable DR lawyer and I will show them as best I can that this is an honest project with every intention to deliver a completed Condo. With clear title .

Cash Movement
"Investor Deposits 90-100% with Lawyer in Canada. Construction schedule is submitted 50% Deposit transferred to Lawyer in D R , Construction starts per Schedule , Monthly Progress reports are submitted and Money is transferred after approval and acceptance. Title is provided at final "turnover" and payment. Suppliers are paid .

Do you think that I am way off base here ?


AS far as paying suppliers, I agree, I dont think that there will be any D & B's on me ! LOL But I also want to ensure that 4 "TIGRES" Don't come walking in my door and break my legs .


Thanks again for your advice.

Joe

I certainly wouldn't trust you with 50% of my money sent to the DR without a single stone set. With this country's history of unfinished projects I doubt it if any good lawyer in Canada or the US would allow his client's money to be released to you unless you could guarantee it personally with assets in Canada or the US. Where is the up-side for the buyer? Wouldn't he be better off buying an already constructed unit? No risk.
It is always a tipoff when a developer can't finance his own project.

 

[jojo2130]

I certainly wouldn't trust you with 50% of my money sent to the DR without a single stone set. With this country's history of unfinished projects I doubt it if any good lawyer in Canada or the US would allow his client's money to be released to you unless you could guarantee it personally with assets in Canada or the US. Where is the up-side for the buyer? Wouldn't he be better off buying an already constructed unit? No risk.
It is always a tipoff when a developer can't finance his own project.

Progress payments are a very normal way of doing business ! The same as when a housing development or an Industrial or Commercial project is undertaken . I fail to see how that would "tip you off" to anything. How exactly am I PROTECTED without a deposit , as previously posted by Mr . Sauser.

How Do I know that YOU will pay me when I am done ?

 

[HOWMAR]

Progress payments are a very normal way of doing business ! The same as when a housing development or an Industrial or Commercial project is undertaken . I fail to see how that would "tip you off" to anything. How exactly am I PROTECTED without a deposit , as previously posted by Mr . Sauser.

How Do I know that YOU will pay me when I am done ?

Simple...The money is held in escrow in an attorney's trust account. When you provide clear title and a finished product, a closing takes place. That is what a real estate closing is for. Not to chase you for title and hope you finish the punch list. I'm only speaking from a buyer's buyers perspective.

 

[Escott]

Simple...The money is held in escrow in an attorney's trust account. When you provide clear title and a finished product, a closing takes place. That is what a real estate closing is for. Not to chase you for title and hope you finish the punch list. I'm only speaking from a buyer's buyers perspective.

I wouldn't trust you with one cent of my money either even if the price was rock bottom for the condo.

That being said if I was to do a project like you are saying I can sell it and have it financed by the people I will be selling it to because I would have credibility with them. Do you have credibility? I don't know, but if you are asking here I guess you do not.

Nothing personal,
Escott

 

[J D Sauser]

Before we have a mal entendido...

Howmar, you're right, as a BUYER I wouldn't buy into such a deal either. I would ask for the lowest deposit and all monies being deposited into MY Lawyer's trust account, hold back money for warranty purposes and so forth.

Joe, the originator of the thread however, wants to act as a seller or promoter... HE's got to look after HIS side of the business and that's why I wrote the suggestions posted.

Sure, there has to be a balance, if you want to attract buyers/investors. If you make it to hard or risky on them to deal with you, you might have a hard time to sell something you haven't even begun to build. People like to get into pre construction deals because they believe they can lock in a discounted price (like a future); They agree to buy something at today's price that may have a higher value at time of termination, plus they may get or belive to get an additional discount for their trust and large down engagement. Promotors know how to format these deals so they look real good.
To tell you how that can turn sour too... Spain is presently facing a big problem with that. Real estate prices on the med coast have been climbing steadily for years and lot's of people have developed a liking of making down payments on appartments that would be built later, knowing exactly that they would never be able to pay up the final payment but believing that they would be able to sell it for much more than they agreed to pay initially once the unit would be almost ready, making a nice profit (actually, a huge profit if you consider the return on only the deposit money).
So what happened? Well, it worked great for a while, which in turn attracted a lot of people to do these type of "investments" very ligthly. So, a real market developed for people wanting to play the game. Promoters started competing on accepting lower deposits and their vendors and contractors would allow delayed payment arrangements with the promotors. But now, it would seem that to many units have build... the market saggs, no final buyers and the initial deposit people never really ever could envisage to buy the place, meaning coming up with the final baloon payment(s)... So, while promotors get to keep their low deposits it's many times still not even enough to pay their vendors and contractors and not too many buyers for all these units arround anymore either... :nervous: boom!

Tigres... well, tigres may just call for more Tigres , if so'nso can buy them, so can you. But I do understand your concern, nobody really wants to get into that, now do we. The art of the business with vendors and contractors (about holding back payments and keeping rates low), is to always keep them half way happy and most of all, always hoping for more: You do never want to give them only the impression you will execute only that one project... allways make them feel (you don't really even need to make them believe) that there is more and bigger deals to come.
If you pay them too much too soon, they may become slow, self content and expensive, if you pay them too little and allways too late, you will starve them to death and before "dying" they might just send (a Tigre or two) out for you (I would too ).


Joe, if you can get a non refundable down payment of 50% into YOUR account, well then... "chapeau" as the French say.
With that money, you should be able to, as you said yourself, to be fine until the end. So why the progress payments? You are again saying it yourself... you could care less if they don't come to the closing... you'd get to keep your down payments and the real estate... and can sell the unit again, maybe even for more than initially agreed (as time went by and you would then be offering a finished product ready to move in). I am not suggesting to you to screw people out of deposit money... but... Banks most times like to get people into mortgages, just hoping they will default on the loan.
Finally, let me repeat that I would not let customer payments be held by a Lawyer. If it is YOUR Lawyer YOU may be held responsible if there is a fraud (like money, Lawyer or both disapearing). On the other hand, if it is held in your customers Lawyer's account, you might have to fight 'till the cows come home to get your final payment(s).

... J-D.

 

[jojo2130]

I wouldn't trust you with one cent of my money either even if the price was rock bottom for the condo.

That being said if I was to do a project like you are saying I can sell it and have it financed by the people I will be selling it to because I would have credibility with them. Do you have credibility? I don't know, but if you are asking here I guess you do not.

Nothing personal,
Escott

Mr Escott,
Yes I have Credibility, but I need to attract buyers that do not know me . but I can say that I would not buy from you either simply because I do not know you , nor would I accept word of mouth about your "credibility" . Does that mean that you do not have credibility ? Also if you have this credibility , and you can make a profit by using other peoples money , why arent you doing it ? You culd find a manager, use your "credibility" and make a fortune while drinking Presidente on the beach !

 

[jojo2130]

Simple...The money is held in escrow in an attorney's trust account. When you provide clear title and a finished product, a closing takes place. That is what a real estate closing is for. Not to chase you for title and hope you finish the punch list. I'm only speaking from a buyer's buyers perspective.

Howmar , I agree, But that just does not protect a builder when there are 2 countries involved .

I Build house , Maybe to buyers Specs. Buyer comes to see , says No I dont like the color and leaves and I am left holding the bag? Come On. It just doesnt make sense.

 

[jojo2130]

Howmar, you're right, as a BUYER I wouldn't buy into such a deal either. I would ask for the lowest deposit and all monies being deposited into MY Lawyer's trust account, hold back money for warranty purposes and so forth.

Joe, the originator of the thread however, wants to act as a seller or promoter... HE's got to look after HIS side of the business and that's why I wrote the suggestions posted.

Sure, there has to be a balance, if you want to attract buyers/investors. If you make it to hard or risky on them to deal with you, you might have a hard time to sell something you haven't even begun to build. People like to get into pre construction deals because they believe they can lock in a discounted price (like a future); They agree to buy something at today's price that may have a higher value at time of termination, plus they may get or belive to get an additional discount for their trust and large down engagement. Promotors know how to format these deals so they look real good.
To tell you how that can turn sour too... Spain is presently facing a big problem with that. Real estate prices on the med coast have been climbing steadily for years and lot's of people have developed a liking of making down payments on appartments that would be built later, knowing exactly that they would never be able to pay up the final payment but believing that they would be able to sell it for much more than they agreed to pay initially once the unit would be almost ready, making a nice profit (actually, a huge profit if you consider the return on only the deposit money).
So what happened? Well, it worked great for a while, which in turn attracted a lot of people to do these type of "investments" very ligthly. So, a real market developed for people wanting to play the game. Promoters started competing on accepting lower deposits and their vendors and contractors would allow delayed payment arrangements with the promotors. But now, it would seem that to many units have build... the market saggs, no final buyers and the initial deposit people never really ever could envisage to buy the place, meaning coming up with the final baloon payment(s)... So, while promotors get to keep their low deposits it's many times still not even enough to pay their vendors and contractors and not too many buyers for all these units arround anymore either... :nervous: boom!

Tigres... well, tigres may just call for more Tigres , if so'nso can buy them, so can you. But I do understand your concern, nobody really wants to get into that, now do we. The art of the business with vendors and contractors (about holding back payments and keeping rates low), is to always keep them half way happy and most of all, always hoping for more: You do never want to give them only the impression you will execute only that one project... allways make them feel (you don't really even need to make them believe) that there is more and bigger deals to come.
If you pay them too much too soon, they may become slow, self content and expensive, if you pay them too little and allways too late, you will starve them to death and before "dying" they might just send (a Tigre or two) out for you (I would too ).


Joe, if you can get a non refundable down payment of 50% into YOUR account, well then... "chapeau" as the French say.
With that money, you should be able to, as you said yourself, to be fine until the end. So why the progress payments? You are again saying it yourself... you could care less if they don't come to the closing... you'd get to keep your down payments and the real estate... and can sell the unit again, maybe even for more than initially agreed (as time went by and you would then be offering a finished product ready to move in). I am not suggesting to you to screw people out of deposit money... but... Banks most times like to get people into mortgages, just hoping they will default on the loan.
Finally, let me repeat that I would not let customer payments be held by a Lawyer. If it is YOUR Lawyer YOU may be held responsible if there is a fraud (like money, Lawyer or both disapearing). On the other hand, if it is held in your customers Lawyer's account, you might have to fight 'till the cows come home to get your final payment(s).

... J-D.

Mr . Sauser, Thank you for your insight , I agree, the balance has to be there for everyone , that is what makes a good deal and a happy transaction . I have several of these already presold to friends with deposits in Hand , so that part is done ! Purel;y on "Credibility" as Mr Escott so eloquently questioned. The questions are arising because we are trying to now trying to sell to and attract "NoN-friends" to see if we can make a larger project. This is a Sticky point so that everyone feels comfy and cosy in their investment and that we have sufficient access to cash as the project advances so that we do NOT end up as one of the 1/2 finished dominican projects that dot the countryside.

if you have any Other Suggestions , I am all ears .

As for the Tigres , well I think there is another name for that type of business ! ! Do you think maybe it woul be mnore fun with a few Tigras and we get to see a great cat fight ! ?

I am not certain that I understand 100% about what happened or is happening in Spain but I can assure you that this is a live project with a nice twist that will definitely go ahead . It is only a determination now as to what scale for the first round.

Thank you again very much for your insight and thoughts.

Joe

 

[Escott]

Mr Escott,
Yes I have Credibility, but I need to attract buyers that do not know me . but I can say that I would not buy from you either simply because I do not know you , nor would I accept word of mouth about your "credibility" . Does that mean that you do not have credibility ? Also if you have this credibility , and you can make a profit by using other peoples money , why arent you doing it ? You culd find a manager, use your "credibility" and make a fortune while drinking Presidente on the beach !

I don't use opm. I always like to make it all by myself and not share the profits. I retired from doing this. I have bought property and done deals with one guy here and that is because he is a friend and he has a lot of knowledge he offers me. See the thing is that neither of us need the money but enjoy each others company and do this for fun. We are actually financing deals like what you are doing right here in the Dominican Republic.

If you look at all the pre-sales that are going on they are with little money down and done with financing after commitments and financing is built into the cost. Cap Cana, Atlantica and even smaller projects in Cabarete have done this although the Atlantica project is NOT 100% at this point.

You want to use other peoples money to fund your business and I don't think that is going to fly especially here in the Dominican Republic. These other companies are put together by legitimate people who other people have confidence in.

Best of luck.

Escott

 

[Fabio J. Guzman]

Jojo 2130, you are on the right track and trying to do things as they should: protecting your own interests but at the same time acknowledging that the buyer in your project also deserves protection. The mechanism you propose is workable.

For many years I have seen how developers in the Dominican Republic, large and small, try to finance their projects largely with pre-sales, in essence, 0% financing from unsuspecting buyers who do not understand the risks involved. The standard procedure is for the developer to use the funds from pre-sales, along with a bank loan, to finance the construction. The bank, of course, is protected with a mortgage on the property. If the developer runs into financial difficulties (or worse, misappropriates the funds), the bank forecloses and the buyers lose both their money and "their" property, even in cases they have paid the full price. This has happened so often that there is a bill in Congress to change the system.

Just a week ago I reviewed a contract from a big developer on the east coast in which my client was supposed to pay more than a million dollars to the developer on a schedule which did not call for the delivery of clear title as a condition for even the final payment. To make matters worse, from the preamble of the contract I learned that the seller did not even own the property he was selling but only had an option on it!

 

[jojo2130]

Thank you Mr Guzman

Jojo 2130, you are on the right track and trying to do things as they should: protecting your own interests but at the same time acknowledging that the buyer in your project also deserves protection. The mechanism you propose is workable.

For many years I have seen how developers in the Dominican Republic, large and small, try to finance their projects largely with pre-sales, in essence, 0% financing from unsuspecting buyers who do not understand the risks involved. The standard procedure is for the developer to use the funds from pre-sales, along with a bank loan, to finance the construction. The bank, of course, is protected with a mortgage on the property. If the developer runs into financial difficulties (or worse, misappropriates the funds), the bank forecloses and the buyers lose both their money and "their" property, even in cases they have paid the full price. This has happened so often that there is a bill in Congress to change the system.

Just a week ago I reviewed a contract from a big developer on the east coast in which my client was supposed to pay more than a million dollars to the developer on a schedule which did not call for the delivery of clear title as a condition for even the final payment. To make matters worse, from the preamble of the contract I learned that the seller did not even own the property he was selling but only had an option on it!

Thank you Mr Guzman ,

I think that this will work fine. The only question after this is my budget but I have been reseearching the costs fopr 5 months now and I think that I am at the very least Very close.


I will be meeting with the Canadian lawyer later this week. If you agree I would like to retain you as my attorney when the time is right and I will arrange for the lawyer here that will represent several of the Canadian buyers , to be in contact with you and we will put this plan into motion. I will be on the North Coast In late July and will contact you at the time.

Joe Hall

 

[Escott]

Keep us posted with updates. I am anxious to see how you do.

Do you have any building experience in the DR?

Escott

 

[jojo2130]

Keep us posted with updates. I am anxious to see how you do.

Do you have any building experience in the DR?

Escott

Hi Escott,

I Have none, I have building experience here, Also built a factory in Poland so strictly Cold Climates. I was there for 6 weeks STRICLTLY to investigate the Hows and Costs, this past spring. I have a pretty good idea About it now but would never claim to know everything. And would appreciate any help that amyone is willing to offer. I have designed VERY Simple Construction and will manage the construction myself ! I Have observed for many days , several homes and buildings of various types and met with architects and Reputable real estate people and property owners including a Canadian and an American . I have heard about the land scams and lost the Pie in the Sky Idea about buying 50 Acres of Prime beach land for $5000 from an unwitting local.
In short, I learned very much !

I think the rest now will be management and adaptation to DR Ways .

Hope that we can have a beer when I come there next month .

Joe

 

[Escott]

Whoopsies

 

[Escott]

Sure we can have a beer. No problem whatsoever!

I just saw your other thread but forgot about it and didn't put you together with the other one. Had I remembered I would have stayed out of this one.

I did a lot of building in the states. Stick built and panelized construction. That does NOT prepare you for doing building here in the DR. Besides a way different construction type than cold weather construction there is a way different cultural type you need to know and learn and that is far more difficult. I truly wish you the best of luck, I believe you will need it. It isn't going to be a walk in the park.

Escott

PS> the costs have changed dramatically since you were here last.