Public Education System

[NALs]

I politely disagree, I believe my point is valid.. keep the masses dumb and they will not see what you're doing... and by the way I am not sure about the Marxist part.. it has been in use for centuries... no education for girls, for minorities.. it's all been part of repression systems for ages in each and every empire.. it's actually one of the better systems of keeping control.. no education or no access to govt/military jobs..

I have a tendency of looking at such statements of "government keeping people dumb to better rule over them" as much as I see the racial issue of putting racial pride above national pride.

How hard has it been for Castro to rule over Cuba? Cuba is extremely well educated by Latin American standards?

Hint: It's pretty darn easy! How easy has Haiti been for its government to rule?

Haitians are the least educated people in this hemisphere, and yet, the country is falling apart.

The notion that keeping people dumb makes it easier to rule makes little sense to me. However, the government gives to people what they want and if people don't want something, they can always protest!

With the race issue, when one thinks in terms of race as oppose to nationality, then one is simply segregating society and causing hatred between people to emerge, a level of hatred that did not existed before. One can clearly see this by the post of many Afro-Americans here, they think in terms of race first. They always say "as a black man or as a black woman, etc", or they reject certain ideas because they came from a "white person",etc.

I suppose an American would have a hard time deciding if a white family can adopt and raise a black orphan and vice-versa and this is probably due to the fragmented ideas based on race only. To me, that is a racist ideology.

On the other hand, thinking in terms of nationality above race truely brings a nation to its own terms. It would be nice if every American simply look at each other as a fellow countrymen that they have nothing to be suspicious about, but as more posts from Afro-Americans in particular make their way into DR1 forums, one can clearly see the effects of an ideology based on race above everything else.

I remember when I used to see people as people, their skin color was simply another personal feature as is their personality, ideas, and way of being. After being exposed to American ideology for one year, it has become rather hard to see a person without noticing their skin color and thinking of Jose, not just as Jose, but as the black man Jose.

I totally hate this way of seeing the world and of my experiences in the US during that one year timeperiod I was there, this little nasty effect is the single one that I hate the most. I used to see people for who they were, now my coscious mind makes a note on what they are as well. I hate it completely and I cringe when I hear of people wanting to bring such racist (in my opinion) way of seeing the world to the Dominican people in general. I hate it completely.

In my opinion, I prefer for Dominicans to take pride in saying "I'm Dominican and that's my Dominican countrymen" as oppose to "I'm a White Dominican and that a black Dominican over there".

See my point?

 

[NALs]

I know that you are kidding but why don't you aspire to be the "hero" that you are referring to. You ARE Dominican after all, why look to extranjeros for salvation.

As a Dominican who operates multiple business ventures in this country and elsewhere, one thing is cut and clear.

A Dominican holds foreigners and foreign things in better regard than they do their own homegrown identical counterpart.

Two exact ideas or things with the only difference is that one was made abroad and the other was made here, the typical Dominican will pick and put more attention to and desire more the foreign one than the local one, despite being the samething.

One has to understand the psyche of the Dominican man if one wants to truly have a lasting effect on them.

 

[ALB3]

As a Dominican who operates multiple business ventures in this country and elsewhere, one thing is cut and clear.

A Dominican holds foreigners and foreign things in better regard than they do their own homegrown identical counterpart.

Two exact ideas or things with the only difference is that one was made abroad and the other was made here, the typical Dominican will pick and put more attention to and desire more the foreign one than the local one, despite being the samething.

One has to understand the psyche of the Dominican man if one wants to truly have a lasting effect on them.

That is truly sad. Not to drag the other thread here but it appears that pessimism runs not only amongst the lower classes in the DR.

 

[NALs]

That is truly sad. Not to drag the other thread here but it appears that pessimism runs not only amongst the lower classes in the DR.

It's mostly among the lower classes and that was my point.

I'm not pessimistic about my own possibilities, but I am well aware that a foreigner will be accepted by the masses much more readily than they would of an idea that comes from one of their own, except when the idea involves doing things different and with a little bit of more hard work. Then the lower classes refrain to the "This is DR" in order to escape change.

Also, it's my background. I'm a Dominican, but anybody can easily paint me as racist, pro-elitist, or other bolony with ease, even though my intentions are of not suchthing. I have learned this truth right here on DR1 where I'm often called a racist, elitists, etc and I end up in shock because never in my mind did my intentions went in those directions.

I suppose I'm in the same position a white American is when referring to the race issue. The idea that a white American can't really speak for a black American simply based on the color of his/her skin is absurd, but very real in that nation. Something similar exist here, though not with race, but with the social stratification, especially when a person of one class wants to help another of another class, but the masses don't fully understand the process.

They hide and shut the door by claiming what's easy to claim and denying what's really the motive.

It's easy to destroy a painting, but its very hard to paint it!

 

[NALs]

I appreciate the time you and others take to answer my questions; I am trying to learn as much about this country as I can, the DR has become a prayer project for me, as have other lands.

It's a real pleasure.

If I make a person think out of the box at least for a split second, then I have reached my objective.

Nal0whs your posts also inspire me to ask more questions which I will in another thread.

And this is proof that I am inspiring people to think beyond what they thought possible.

This is very typical of my posts and discussions with DR1ers and acquaintances. It truly brings me pleasure to see this happen because this is proof that I am not just talking to myself! LOL!

But, now, how do you inspire national pride and encourage self-pride in a people?

HB very wonderfully elaborated on how Dominicans inspire on national pride and self-pride, but their inspiration comes from rather weak, small, and short term sources.

Pride must be developed for a love of the land. I don't mean loving the trees, the landscape, the music, etc since that is what most Dominicans actually do when they say they love their country. More often than not, they are actually loving the natural beauty, the music, the food, etc.

When I speak of loving one's land, I am referring to having a desire of doing something positive and great that touches not one or two people, but millions if not the entire 8 million people that live here. That is what I am referring to when I say loving one's land. Yes, the scenery is stuningly diverse and beautiful, but that is nature and plenty of other places that are as beautiful as here. Loving one's country is when a person wants to do something and is constantly looking for way to implement that what will cause a betterment for the life of his/her countrymen.

Loving one's country is being willing to die for one's nation if the opportunity presents itself whenever the country finds itself in danger of being stripped of its sovereignity. Loving one's country is to think of yourself as a person who can do what you want to do! You can be that change that you desire upon this earth, but only if you think you can!

Don't look at a poor person and feel sorry for them, feeling sorry will not keep them out of poverty. You can never be poor enough to make another poor person feel better. However, if you embark on a personal journey where you will step outside of the comfort zone and impose the changes that you desire, then by all means possible, that is the biggest manifestation of one's love for one's country!

Does it start at home where it should?

The home is essential, since that is where we develop our habits, way of thinking, work ethic, etc.

The sorroundings a person is sorrounded by has tremendous impact in their lives, but such impact is only negative if they only see what's there. Seeing beyond what's there, seeing what it can be is what's needed for the love of one's country to take shape and lead to changes that will be for the better.

When I look at a child, I always picture in my mind what that child can be. I don't think to myself "oh, how sad this child is poor or homeless or an orphan", I always think to myself "there goes the next greatest doctor or politician of his/her generation". Not only do I think of such, but if the child shows me that he/she is willing to accept a life where he/she is the developer of his/her destiny, I am always willing to help them the best I can to help them accomplish their goals, let it be financial help, moral support, or any other help possible.

I do way more than its ask of me in general, that is how I am leaving my mark on this island, certainly for the better.

Should there be more organizations that push education in a more bold way?

Sure.

What we need are more leaders, real leaders.

It's clear that a Dominican will achieve greatness if only shown the way. Some will ignore such opportunity, but for those who do take advantage the sky is the limit.

Real leaders is what's needed, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[MerengueDutchie]

I have a tendency of looking at such statements of "government keeping people dumb to better rule over them" as much as I see the racial issue of putting racial pride above national pride.

How hard has it been for Castro to rule over Cuba? Cuba is extremely well educated by Latin American standards?

Hint: It's pretty darn easy! How easy has Haiti been for its government to rule?

Haitians are the least educated people in this hemisphere, and yet, the country is falling apart.

The notion that keeping people dumb makes it easier to rule makes little sense to me. However, the government gives to people what they want and if people don't want something, they can always protest!

Nals,

As always it is a pleasure to see your post.. sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree..

I'm afraid I disagree with you.. now let's look at your points:

Re Cuba..

Fidel took a nation of illiterate peasants and indoctrinated them with his own concotion of propaganda.. while education them at the same time. This education is very, very much loaded with ideology.. read some of Che Guevarra's writings on this.. so in my opinion Fidel achieved the ultimate aim..educating people in your own ideology.. this has been used throughout the centuries by varies empires like the Romans, the Communists, the French and other colonial powers.. as an aside the notion that white is more beautiful than black is a direct product of colonial education.. the victor writes the history etc.. I'm sure you are familiar with this..

Re Haiti...

Those people are horribly uneducated.. however that is not the cause of the country falling apart.. that is due to the destruction of basic living conditions rather than lack of education..

I agree that a good education could have staved off this horrible situation but lack thereof is not the cause of the current crisis.. that goes a lot deeper.. to me this argument is similar to explaining the lack of births in Europe by pointing to the disappearance of storks in the area.. (common folk belief holds that babies are delivered by the storks).. so no more babies van be delivered..

The rest of your post is about race, which in my view has limited effect on the education question..

I will hold to my point of view and say that the current lack of education, provided the economical bottom does not drop out of the DR (which is what happened in Haiti), delivers a big mass of uneducated and easily manipulated voters to the political parties.. this is the next best thing to indoctrinating the masses with your own political poison (see Cuba)..

Of course you do not need to agree with me

 

[DR Mpe]

True...

Yvette,

Also, the politicians know that ruling an uneducated mass is easier than ruling an educted people.. hence there is no interest in education the children of ones enemies..

Both factors are not specificially Dominican but do contribute to the issue..

So true, so true... true for the Uneducated States of America also. Bush knows how to rule his mass.

Fahrenheit 9/11 is a great movie.

 

[yvette]

What we need are more leaders, real leaders.

Real leaders is what's needed, nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks once again for your enlightening response, and if you ever run for office, you have my vote! (Ever think of being a motivational speaker?)

Yvette

 

[NALs]

Of course you do not need to agree with me

That's the beauty of a message board.

However, I can see how you arrive to your points and they are very good points. In fact, your points make perfect sense and if it was not for my own opinion about this, I would have probably fallen in sync completely with your rationalization of this issue. But, obviously I don't fully agree with you, I agree on certain points but not on others of your argument. In any case, I feel that my points are well positioned and easy to understand in this thread as yours are as well, thus let's agree to disagree and let the DR1 crowd come to their own conclusions about this.

I will finally confess, I am taking what you said with plenty of consideration.

 

[NALs]

Thanks once again for your enlightening response, and if you ever run for office, you have my vote!

He he :classic:

I was actually contemplating the idea of getting into politics, but for now that is in the back seat. Hipolito's wrath truly eroded my desires of getting into that concoction of political life. However, as I further develop my personal philosophies towards life and the nation, and based on how people in general respond to them, I might put it into consideration once again.

(Ever think of being a motivational speaker?)

That's an interesting idea.

I'll take it into consideration!

 

[yvette]

He he :classic:

I was actually contemplating the idea of getting into politics, but for now that is in the back seat. Hipolito's wrath truly eroded my desires of getting into that concoction of political life. However, as I further develop my personal philosophies towards life and the nation, and based on how people in general respond to them, I might put it into consideration once again.


That's an interesting idea.

I'll take it into consideration!

Nals,

You should take it into serious consideration, I think your energy and passion for what you believe is contagious!

Yvette

 

[juancarlos]

"Fidel took a nation of illiterate peasants and indoctrinated them with his own concotion of propaganda.. while education them at the same time."

Sorry to disagree with you Merenguedutchi. Cuba was not a nation of illitarate peasants. I know that's what many people around the world believe because they have been misinformed. At the time Castro came to power in Cuba, there were only five literate nations in Latin America, and these were: Argentina, Uruguay, Cuba, Chile and Costa Rica. Only nations where the large majority of the people had some schooling and were able to read and write. It is all part of the UN statistics. In addition, Cuba had a better rate of doctors per inhabitants than most nations in the hemisphere and more proffesionals, a large and growing middle class, etc. Cuba led Latin America in fields of health care and education and had the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America.

After coming to power, Castro expanded the secondary educational system, built high schools in places where there were none and also expanded the University system. There was also a brief litaracy campaing in the countryside aimed at teaching the basics to those mostly elderly persons who had never attended school. However, when Castro came to power, only 1 in 6 Cubans were iliterate. Very impressive for a Latin nation which had only 57 years of independent life and whose educational system had to be built from scratch after the devastation left by its war for independence shortly before the begining of the XX Century. Today Cuba has more professionals than perhaps most countries, many of them are unemployed or working poor, working as waiters, taxi drivers etc. and Cuba certainly has a surplus of doctors. However, during the same time, most other countries in the region have made even more progress, considering that most of them were illiterate and the time of Castro's entry into Havana. Some very poor countries like Jamaica have comparable literacy rates.

I know the subject is education or the lack of it in the DR, but since Cuba was mentioned and you were under the impression that Fidel taught the Cuban people to read and write, I had to express my opinion, being the Cuban that I am.

 

[MerengueDutchie]

"Fidel took a nation of illiterate peasants and indoctrinated them with his own concotion of propaganda.. while education them at the same time."

Sorry to disagree with you Merenguedutchi. Cuba was not a nation of illitarate peasants. I know that's what many people around the world believe because they have been misinformed. At the time Castro came to power in Cuba, there were only five literate nations in Latin America, and these were: Argentina, Uruguay, Cuba, Chile and Costa Rica. Only nations where the large majority of the people had some schooling and were able to read and write. It is all part of the UN statistics. In addition, Cuba had a better rate of doctors per inhabitants than most nations in the hemisphere and more proffesionals, a large and growing middle class, etc. Cuba led Latin America in fields of health care and education and had the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America.

After coming to power, Castro expanded the secondary educational system, built high schools in places where there were none and also expanded the University system. There was also a brief litaracy campaing in the countryside aimed at teaching the basics to those mostly elderly persons who had never attended school. However, when Castro came to power, only 1 in 6 Cubans were iliterate. Very impressive for a Latin nation which had only 57 years of independent life and whose educational system had to be built from scratch after the devastation left by its war for independence shortly before the begining of the XX Century. Today Cuba has more professionals than perhaps most countries, many of them are unemployed or working poor, working as waiters, taxi drivers etc. and Cuba certainly has a surplus of doctors. However, during the same time, most other countries in the region have made even more progress, considering that most of them were illiterate and the time of Castro's entry into Havana. Some very poor countries like Jamaica have comparable literacy rates.

I know the subject is education or the lack of it in the DR, but since Cuba was mentioned and you were under the impression that Fidel taught the Cuban people to read and write, I had to express my opinion, being the Cuban that I am.

Juan Carlos,

Thanks for your reply.. from what I understood is that pre-revolution indeed a large amount of Cubans were literate, but mostly in the Urban centres, like Havana, Santiago, Cienfeugos etc..

Now from what I've read (and mind you I've only read and I am not a Cuban).. a lot of the middle and upper class Cubans (i.e. the literate ones) jumped ship post revolution.

As a result there was a serious lack of both professionals and education for the population that was left on the island. This was seen and taken as an opportunity by the Revolutionaries to instill propaganda together with education into the Cuban people.

Thanks for your post!

 

[daddy1]

That's the beauty of a message board.

However, I can see how you arrive to your points and they are very good points. In fact, your points make perfect sense and if it was not for my own opinion about this, I would have probably fallen in sync completely with your rationalization of this issue. But, obviously I don't fully agree with you, I agree on certain points but not on others of your argument. In any case, I feel that my points are well positioned and easy to understand in this thread as yours are as well, thus let's agree to disagree and let the DR1 crowd come to their own conclusions about this.

I will finally confess, I am taking what you said with plenty of consideration.

Nalowhs I also agree with some of your Idea's..except for the one about the people not wanting it part...let's tell yvette why people do not really fight for there social changes...

So you allowed to openly protest in D.R...are you kidding me!! maybe.. but some in gov't call it illegal if you don't inform them of what your protest is all about.. and many lose there lives innocently, and there is major intimidation when you do so....I do agree that the gov't does rather keep there people dumb, and keep them in check concept...but education starts from the top! period...regardless of what the people want in the short term, build the programs first, and tell your people why they need these tools to survive and better themselves, if you build it they will come..encourage it, promote it, above all else, and you will see they will be inspired...so let's just say that your theory is true...should the goverment then trash there educational and social development programs because it's not a popular move amongst the people...NO! and I will bring out several clues to why the gov't and not the people do not give a rip about education.

1. The Dominican Constitution who knows of it, who constantly violates it, and why is it not in there public school system.
2. Major league Baseball camps, are a substitute for school itself.. and who is profiting from there presense there.
3. Children by law can quit school by the 5th grade..(go figure!)
4. Political figures and Military officials are above the law.
5. No more the 30 athlete's in a country of 8 million join the olympics, (so I guess Dominican's don't want sports either!)
6. Anyone at any age can purchase alcohol! as a matter of fact it's incouraged and sponsored by the gov't..Tax food, but not Beer!
7. There is no child labor laws in effect!
8. The Nations Museums are a joke..ala Mella's house of birth
9. The Countries first and largest University does not have a modern library, but wait... one was built a while ago, but..... with no books!
and the list goes on and on...yvette pray and pray out loud that a Dominican man or women arrives one day like the messiah and save and give face to all Dominican children!.. and for those who really want the best for that country!

The Bottom line is the only one's that can really do something are the expat's, but they live to comfortable in the states to care about there own people, for them it's always been every Dominican for themselves, they rather just wave there flags in American's faces, and revel in a poole of pride, without really knowing why... and the natives in the homeland are to tired and to intimidated by there own authorities to protest, so to them it's just alot easier to hussle, then to complain and get Killed! Dominican's today, can't blame any country or any military for there past and present failures, they have no known cultural nor human enemies..in this world to date, but themselves..

 

[yvette]

Daddy1 You Have My Eyes Wide Open!

Nalowhs I also agree with some of your Idea's..except for the one about the people not wanting it part...let's tell yvette why people do not really fight for there social changes...

So you allowed to openly protest in D.R...are you kidding me!! maybe.. but some in gov't call it illegal if you don't inform them of what your protest is all about.. and many lose there lives innocently, and there is major intimidation when you do so....I do agree that the gov't does rather keep there people dumb, and keep them in check concept...but education starts from the top! period...regardless of what the people want in the short term, build the programs first, and tell your people why they need these tools to survive and better themselves, if you build it they will come..encourage it, promote it, above all else, and you will see they will be inspired...so let's just say that your theory is true...should the goverment then trash there educational and social development programs because it's not a popular move amongst the people...NO! and I will bring out several clues to why the gov't and not the people do not give a rip about education.

1. The Dominican Constitution who knows of it, who constantly violates it, and why is it not in there public school system.
2. Major league Baseball camps, are a substitute for school itself.. and who is profiting from there presense there.
3. Children by law can quit school by the 5th grade..(go figure!)
4. Political figures and Military officials are above the law.
5. No more the 30 athlete's in a country of 8 million join the olympics, (so I guess Dominican's don't want sports either!)
6. Anyone at any age can purchase alcohol! as a matter of fact it's incouraged and sponsored by the gov't..Tax food, but not Beer!
7. There is no child labor laws in effect!
8. The Nations Museums are a joke..ala Mella's house of birth
9. The Countries first and largest University does not have a modern library, but wait... one was built a while ago, but..... with no books!
and the list goes on and on...yvette pray and pray out loud that a Dominican man or women arrives one day like the messiah and save and give face to all Dominican children!.. and for those who really want the best for that country!

The Bottom line is the only one's that can really do something are the expat's, but they live to comfortable in the states to care about there own people, for them it's always been every Dominican for themselves, they rather just wave there flags in American's faces, and revel in a poole of pride, without really knowing why... and the natives in the homeland are to tired and to intimidated by there own authorities to protest, so to them it's just alot easier to hussle, then to complain and get Killed! Dominican's today, can't blame any country or any military for there past and present failures, they have no known cultural nor human enemies..in this world to date, but themselves..

daddy1,

Your whole post is eye-opening, I will pray about all the items you listed. I know by what I've read that this is a beautiful country with beautiful people in appearance and heart, but how devastating behind closed doors!

Yvette