Sex, Internet and the DR

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: I corresponded with author BEFORE her story

Juila wrote me before the story and asked for information.

She wrote "I'm just interested in the whole using-the-internet-to-score-women angle ... I'd love to talk to one of the women that uses the net to get clients ...". She had already decided on visiting DR's north coast at that time.

I told her: I know of no women in the Dominican Republic that use the Internet to get men. There are lots of sites where women use the internet to advertise their services, but NOT in the Dominican Republic. Russia, Germany, USA, Brazil, ..., you'll find page after page of escort sites. But not for the Dominican Republic.

I guess since the facts didn't fit what she was looking for, she decided to fabricate a story. I showed how most of the article is false. She just picked the wrong country for an Internet/Sex story. Her title "The Web, Where 'Pimps' Roam Free" doesn't fit the DR at all. That the fact.

 

[Susanne]

Truth, lies, facts etc. bit by bit. LONG post

Ok, Jim. Let's take it bit by bit, based on your previous posting.

Jim Hinsch wrote:
See all the false statements:

Article: "A slow tourist season has hurt the T-shirt and coconut milk vendors in this scenic beach town, but it hasn't put a dent in the body business. "

Truth: Slow tourist season affects the body business, big time.

My comment: I am sure that a slow tourist season might harm the body business. However, according to your own posting later on, which I happen to agree with, most of the tourists going to the DR are NOT going there to have sex holiday. That does not mean that the DR is not a destination for this. But the numbers would be way smaller. It may be a consistent number, however. So the report could be true. Same thing goes for Thailand. Most people go there to swim, bask in the sun etc. But a large amount of men go there to have sex. The two things co-exist easily and have done for years.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "Indeed, the Dominican Republic is one of the biggest sex tourism destinations in the world, thanks in part to Internet sites that extol the country as a "single man's paradise."

Truth: It is not. It isn't even in the top 10.

My comment: I would like to see your top ten. On TSM it is rated as one of their five most popular destinations. My own guess is that Thailand is no. one.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "But [Puerto Plata] has a dark side: The area's thriving commercial sex industry has given it one of the highest HIV rates of any region in the country, according to the World Bank."

Truth: The World Bank does not provide HIV statistics by region within the country. The estimated HIV rate in the DR for the year 2000 was about 0.6% (50,000 carriers out of 8,000,000 people - see http://www.paho.org/english/HIA1998/DominicanRepublic.pdf, page 5). According to http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpb/lcdc/publicat/aids/aic04-99/aid99es4.html, the AIDS rate as of 1998 in the DR was 0.05% or 50 out of every 100,000 people. This is 1/5 the rate in the United States.

My comment: WHO backs the numbers given in the article. See the posting about this for further details. According to WHO the DR is WAY above the USA.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "Today, men looking for local action can choose from customized love vacations that include room, board, 20 alcohol drinks a day and the company of one or more local women. "

Truth: Love vacations are not new, not unique to the Dominican Republic, are are available right in the USA. I don't see the point. This type of offer in the DR is very rare.

My comment: I am sure you are right. But it is given as an example.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "Plug "adult travel" into a search engine and you'll find dozens of membership-based sites where men around the world swap information on prostitutes, brothels and the price of oral sex in Brazil or Cuba."

Truth: Yes, there are sex boards where members swap photos and stories. This is not DR related, as the DR would be a tiny fraction of these reports.

My comment: On quite a few of these sites the DR is anything but a tiny fraction. Just see for yourself.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "The guys running these sites are pimps."

Truth: Totally false. None of the sites mentioned partipates in, profits by, or facilitates their members meeting prostitutes.

My comment: This is a misquote from the article and out of context. The reporter does not state this. She quotes another person. It is an opinion and not offered as a fact.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "In the Dominican Republic, as in many developing countries, many women are driven to sell their bodies by poverty and lack of alternatives. It is a profession that is illegal but tolerated by local authorities, who accept kickbacks to turn a blind eye to the seedier side of tourism. "

Truth: It is not illegal.

My comment: What does legality have to do with whether it is true or not? The morality of it can be debated - as indeed it has been here. Personally, I have no problem with prostitution when it is a voluntary thing carried out by people who have other choices. I doubt that is the case in the DR.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "Its reputation for cheap and easy sex has given the Caribbean the second-highest AIDS rate in the world after sub-Saharan Africa, according to the World Bank"

Truth: The AIDS rate in the Dominican Republic as of 1998 was 0.05% (50 out of 100,000 people), with only 4000 cases reported in a country of over 8 million people. See http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpb/lcdc/publicat/aids/aic04-99/aid99es4.html. The AIDS rate in the DR is less than 1/10th that of Zimbabwe, 1/20th of the rate in the Bahamas, and less than Switzerland, Spain, and 1/5 that of the United States.

My comment: Again, according to WHO, "Wired" is dead right on this.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

Article: "In some areas of the Dominican Republic, HIV infection rates among prostitutes top 12 percent, according to local activist groups. "

Truth: Where's the data to back up this outrageous claim? Good reporters don't print unsubstantiated hear-say.

My comment: I agree the reporter should have backed it by facts. However, if you look at the WHO report on AIDS/HIV in the Americas, this number is also verified. See my previous posting.

Jim Hinsch wrote:

The DR is being promoted as a sex destination. So are many other countries x 10, including Germany, The Netherlands, Brazil, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Cuba, Switzerland, ... In other words, there is no point.

My comment: I have yet to see Germany and Switzerland on that list. These are some of the least sexy countries I can think of;-) However, in the article the DR is used as an example. It stresses more than once that the issue is not unique to the DR.

Final comment (and then I WILL go to the beach and enjoy summer here): I don't know why it upsets some of you when the DR is described as less than a Paradise. I like the country. I had one of my best holidays there. It is beautiful, people were generally very friendly, there is a wealth of positive sides to the DR and I will definitely come back. But it is not Paradise. All countries have problems to face. I will still recommend the DR to all of my friends that I know would appreciate how special it is. But I don't have to shut my eyes to the parts of it that are less than pretty.

Best regards,
Susanne

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: Wire Artical - Total fabrication

Now YOU are going to start fabricating?

First, the statistics I quoted are not mine so I cannot be wrong since I didn't fabricate the statistics. They come from the World Health Organization and I've already provide references. You can dispute the statistics with them if you like.

"PIMP", by definition, is "one who solicits customers for a prostitute" (ref: Webster's Dictionary of the English Language).

Show us the evidence that has led you to the conclusion "TSMtravel [engages] in this kind of business.", where "this" refers to the subject of the article - internet pimps roaming free.

Telling people "There a red-light district in xxx where there are lots of prostitutes. They come from all nations to work and the average price is xxxx." is considered "pimping"? I'd call it reporting.

The Wired article is fabrication, pure and simple. The author purported that there is "internet pimping" going on and that the DR is a "major" sex destination. It just isn't true.

FACT: There may be "internet pimping" going on, but the sites mentioned are not involved in it and the DR is NOT a "major" sex destination (if at all) when it comes to "internet pimping".

I challenge anybody to find 5 internet sites where there is actual "pimping" of girls in the Dominican Republic. I CAN however easily come up with 10 sites where internet pimping (aka, escort sites) is being done for Russia, USA, Brazil, German, England, Switzerland, Holland, ...

 

[james]

Re: Wired article not based on facts

I never said that boards such as TSM didn't include the discusion of sex, I was stating that the owners are not "nothing more than pimps". They don't have girls working for them and thats what a pimp does. And trust me, I know more about TSM than you do so I can tell you without a doubt my facts are correct.

As for the WHO and other such organizations, much of their statistics are skewed. Countries such as Africa report any unknown cause of death as HIV. With so few medical examiners, most reports remain unsubstaniated. I'm not saying there isn't HIV in Africa or that its not significant, but the inflated statistics is motivated by funding. More reporting means more funding.

The media is great at taking a worse case situation and applying it to the general world population. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[james]

Re: Truth, lies, facts etc. bit by bit. LONG post

Uhhh DR is not one of the top 5 TSM destinations. It is listed as a favorite though. There is a difference.

I think that if Wired or CNN reported the world was flat you might be inclined to agree.

 

[Susanne]

Re: Wire Artical - Total fabrication

Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't said the slightest thing about anybody being a pimp. I have addressed the AIDS/HIV numbers.

By all legal definitions these web sites are not pimping. By moral definitions, it could be argued that they are. But this is STILL out of context. As I have written further down, the article does not offer this statement as a fact. It is a quote from another person, not anonymous, and offered as an opinion.

Regards,
Susanne

 

[Susanne]

Re: Wired article not based on facts

Again, I have never claimed that these guys were pimps. Read my answer to Jim Hinsch.

You probably know more of TSM than I do. I am quite certain, however, that I know more of the HIV situation in Africa than you would ever like to know.

I see that further down you have written that I would probably argue that the World is flat. I would not. The only thing I have done here is to ask for YOUR facts. The only thing you come up with are either disputing statistics from the best source on the HIV-subject - WHO are not perfect but still the best we have - and try to discredit the reporter by saying there is no sex on the TSMsite - a statement you now claim has been misunderstood.

Maybe you would like to argue the exact shape and position of Planet Earth?

Regards,
Susanne

 

[Jerry Rogers]

Re: Tourists $$ mess up the economy?? *PIC*

All these post from a guy/girl who gave me a hard time about simply wanting to be left alone and not hassled by security guards for bribes? I've since read several more accounts of cedula checks simply being a means to extort money, not to prevent underage sexual conduct. So, just help if you can please and advise any Boca Chica hotels which don't have this silly ID check policy of only tourist with Dominican girls. Thanks, Jerry

ps: Those who responded to me privately, a public thank you. I do need a room with AC.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: Truth, lies, facts etc. bit by bit. LONG post

The slow season affect ALL businesses, ESPECIALLY the body business. Prices drop, competition gets fierce, and tourists are much more likely to get a sales pitch from assertive prostitutes. So their claim was in fact, a fabrication.

Let's take a vote. Where is the best place to be for doing situps. The cadidates are "India, Africa, Egypt, and Hawaii". I guess Hawaii is the number 1 situp destination in the world, according to xxx. Rated by who? By TSM members? Top 5 for what? Perhaps of 100 places to visit, it is in the TOP 5 for enjoyable places to visit. You'll have to do your own research if you want to know the top 10 sex destinations, but asking anybody who has been in the military would be a good place to start. I doubt the DR will ever be mentioned.

All the statistics I quoted were from the WHO. You can dispute the stats with them if you like.

Situps are done routinely in Hawaii. This is only an example.

Susanne, you are totally wrong here. Unless you have personally visited these sex travel sites and read the content (which would take you weeks if you dedicated your days to it), you don't have a clue what you are talking about. 99 out of 100 sex related travel sites will not even mention the DR. That's because it isn't a major sex destination. However, it will come up in search engines because one of the guys that happens to love the women of the DR is very good at search engine placement. Eliminate about 3 of the sites (same owner), and you won't find the DR mentioned at all or hardly at all.

I have no problem with anybody putting down the Dominican Republic, as long is they stick to the facts, tell it in context, and provide fair perspective. Example: THEY ARE KILLING BABIES IN THE DR. Truth: They are killing babies all around the world and the DR kills 1/1,000,000th compared to the USA because of good laws.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: Wire Artical - Total fabrication

It is just the title of the article.

 

[Lyse]

Re: The Truth - not all of it is truthful, Jim

About 4 years ago I read an article saying that half the population of the D.R. was affected by AIDS. When you know that about half the D.R. population is below 15 years old how could you believe that????

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: The Truth

If 2.8 percent of the general public is HIV infected, and we go by the intended implication that it means they will all eventually have full-blown AIDS and die, we are looking at a quarter of a million dead people in the next 10 years or so on this very small island, and that's if nobody else gets it from here on in.

I heard similar statistics about the USA about 10 years ago. I was waiting for the 2 million people to die. It never happened. It sure made people afraid of casual sex though and funneled an ungodly amount of money into various pockets.

 

[Tom F.]

It?s all about funding

The HIV/AIDS statistics keep rising around the world because more diseases are being classified as AIDS related. I think it is up to 32 now. The numbers are blown way out of proportion and HIV testing does not test for a specific virus but your CD4 or T cells, which indicates the strength of your immune system. The number of false positives is high and in the US they do a follow up test to verify the first. Those pregant women being tested are probably not eating right, do not exercise and have a great deal of stress in their lifes, which can also make the test appear you have HIV. After you run a marathon, anyone would test positive for HIV. So what virus is more prevelant in the DR, HIV I or HIV II?

Those of us you don?t buy everything we read about HIV/AIDS should not be personally attacked. Dispute our "facts" and we will dispute yours. The pharmacutical and medical research industries are going to ride this gravy train as long as they can.

 

[DR1]

Can we agree to disagree?

It obvious that we all have different opinions and interpretations.
The thread has been interesting and informative, but can we stop it before
it takes up half the board.

Facts:
Reporters sometimes bend the truth knowing that it will increase circulation, also organizations will be creative with numbers to gain funding.

Can we agree to disagree?

Rob.

 

[Santiago Fittipaldi]

Re: The Truth

I too am not making a moral judgement on this issue. However, Jim, do you think that it makes sense to say that something is not a problem by the mere fact that it exists? So, if you have police corruption, for example, then it's not a problem because it exists? AIDS? Poverty? Pollution? That seems a bit simplistic. A problem is precisely a problem because a situation exists, particularly when we decide to find a solution. If not, as I said before, we turn a blind eye and make believe that the problem doesn't exist or will go away. By the way, since you seem to deposit great trust in data supplied by international organizations, would it help you if I also provided you with web site addresses where you can read reports by the United Nations and other such entities on the problem of prostitution and sex tourism in the DR? I agree that this problem exists elsewhere, but for Dominicans the priority should be what to do with our own problems. Just because there is sex tourism in Thailand or Cuba, doesn't mean that this is something that we don't have to worry about. That's like saying that we don't need to fight hunger in the DR because there is abject poverty in Ethiopia. All I'm saying is that we need to stop blaming everything published on the DR on some international media conspiracy against our country. Sometimes the media can be malicious and wrong and we should voice our complaints. But when they say something that's true and obvious to all, then we should take notice and use the information provided to help find a solution.

 

[Santiago Fittipaldi]

Re: Can we agree to disagree?

People can agree to disagree. We can even admit that some members of the press distort the facts. But the bottom line is that sex tourism is alive and well in the DR and that HIV infection is a problem that needs to be addressed regardless of whether or not sex tourism exists. The WIRED article focused on procuring sex via the Internet. Anyone living in the DR knows that it takes a lot less than going on a computer to find sex for sale. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Susanne seems to be the only voice of reason on this thread. Everyone else appears to be desperately trying to make the "facts" and "figures" fit their needs, but for no good reason. Can we agree that there is sex tourism in the DR and that that is what WIRED was talking about? Or will we disagree and look foolish when a reader goes to the DR and happens to be offered sex for money? Let's choose our battles more carefully so that we don't end up with egg on our faces when we are proved wrong, not by the data but by the reality.

 

[Thomas]

Re: Can we agree to disagree?

Santiagao my man

You seem to know a lot about the Aids situation in Santo Domingo. Are we at a higher risk in Santo Domingo than Italy or France? I realize it only takes once, but we would really like to know if the local girls, read pros, are clean?

Much Gracias

ST

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: The Truth

My opinion is that prostitution is not a bad thing, therefore, not a problem.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: You missed the whole point

You have missed the whole point, which was that the article was mostly false statements. Nobody every tried to say sex tourism, AIDS, HIV, etc. did not exist in the DR, or elsewhere.

 

[Stephen Hadley]

Re: Can we agree to disagree?

the low end estimate seems to be 3 in 500 (0.6%) for the dominican population as a whole. even at 1 in 1000 (0.1%) its nuts

would you seriously consider taking that kind of chance with your life? the high end estimate would make anyone think twice?

second, I would think the percentage would be signifigantly higher for
A. people in tourist areas
B. people "of age" (exclude children and old folks from the list)
C. people who are likely to meet and sleep with tourists.
D. people who are likely to meet and sleep with people they just met

you would fit into all these catagories

Statistically, you are playing a VERY dangerous game.